Is this story related to the Mark of the Beast?

[Hammster]

That is the Universalist view, which is not found in the Bible.

That’s not universalism. You should try to familiarize yourself with opposing views so that you won’t make straw man comments like this.

 

[BABerean2]

That’s not universalism. You should try to familiarize yourself with opposing views so that you won’t make straw man comments like this.

Where does the Bible say a majority of the people on this planet will be saved at the Second Coming of Christ?


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[Hammster]

Where does the Bible say a majority of the people on this planet will be saved at the Second Coming of Christ?


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Matthew 13. Psalms 110. 1 Corinthians 15. Those are good places to start looking.

 

[BABerean2]

Matthew 13. Psalms 110. 1 Corinthians 15. Those are good places to start looking.

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


I see the tares are gathered first and burned in the fire before the wheat is gathered into the barn, in the text above.

There is nothing about there being more wheat than tares.

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What did Jesus say below?

Mat_7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

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[Hammster]

I see the tares are gathered first and burned in the fire before the wheat is gathered into the barn, in the text above.

There is nothing about there being more wheat than tares.

You have to understand that the sower of the field would know what he’s doing. So this means that he had a full field of wheat. Adding tares does nothing to affect that. Plus, if you go to the beginning of chapter 13, you’ll see that in those three examples that the kingdom is immense.

What did Jesus say below?

Mat_7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

And who did He say that to? It wasn’t you and I. It was the Jews He was preaching to at the time.

 

[Hammster]

FBI vows to track down those who lie about being vaccinated.
See the link below.

FBI Promises To Hunt Down Anyone Who Lies About Taking COVID Vax As Vaccine Passports Loom - National File


Rev_13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.


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Getting back to the OP.


Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon. He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed. He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men. And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life. And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed. And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.
— Revelation 13:11-17

So if this is the Mark of the Beast™, who is the beast?

 

[BABerean2]

Getting back to the OP.


Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon. He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed. He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men. And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life. And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed. And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.
— Revelation 13:11-17

So if this is the Mark of the Beast™, who is the beast?

Based on Revelation 11:8, it is not Nero.



What is the wicked "great city" in that verse?
It is not Rome.


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[Hammster]

Based on Revelation 11:8, it is not Nero.



What is the wicked "great city" in that verse?
It is not Rome.


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The question is, if this is the Mark of the Beast™, who is the beast?

 

[BABerean2]

The city there is Jerusalem.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.


Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.


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[Hammster]

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.


Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.


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Back to my original question, if this is the Mark of the Beast™, who is the beast?

 

[BABerean2]

Back to my original question, if this is the Mark of the Beast™, who is the beast?

In the text below Babylon is that great city, which is the seat of the beast.
The beast is a nation that was, and was not, and now is again a nation.
The seat of that nation sits on seven mountains.

It is the nation now worshipped by many modern Christians, because they ignore 1 John 2:22-23, and 2 John 1:7-11.

If you show what the Bible says on this issue, you will be condemned.

Others will try to ignore it, because they do not like what the Bible says.

................................................................

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.


Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.


Rev_11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


Rev_13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Rev_13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Rev_13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Rev_13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Rev_13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Rev_13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Rev_13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.


Rev_14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.


Rev_16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,


Rev_17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


Rev_17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.


Seven Hills of Jerusalem | Pak Peaks


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[Hammster]

In the text below Babylon is that great city, which is the seat of the beast.
The beast is a nation that was, and was not, and now is again a nation.
The seat of that nation sits on seven mountains.

It is the nation now worshipped by many modern Christians, because they ignore 1 John 2:22-23, and 2 John 1:7-11.

If you show what the Bible says on this issue, you will be condemned.

................................................................

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.


Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.


Rev_11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


Rev_13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Rev_13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Rev_13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Rev_13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Rev_13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Rev_13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Rev_13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.


Rev_14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.


Rev_16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,


Rev_17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


Rev_17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.



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One more time: if this is the Mark of the Beast™, who is the beast?

 

[DavidPT]

What we all need to keep in mind, regardless what our position might be, there is no beast unless there is also the false prophet. Can't have one without the other. Not only does one need to be able to identify the beast, they also need to be able to identify the false prophet. Revelation 13 involves two beasts, not just one beast, where the first one rises up out of the sea, and the 2nd one coming up out of the earth. Preterists in particular seem to disregard the 2nd beast altogether, and are only able to identify the first beast. Why can't they identify the 2nd beast as well? Both beasts obviously work together with each other, that according to Revelation 13. If, according to Preterists, the first beast has already been identified, then why hasn't the 2nd beast already been identified as well?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

How sure are you that you are correct about your position?

I'm very confident in my position, but would not try to say that my opinions/interpretations are facts like you did. Your opinions on this are not facts and neither are mine. Can you acknowledge that?

Those who were dwelling at that time. Plus, you need to look at the context from the beginning. Never was every person on earth in view. The mindset of the Romans, for instance, was that they had conquered the whole world, even though it was hyperbole.

The beast was Nero.

I take it literally that all whose names are not written in the book of life, without exception, worship the beast. Obviously, not all people whose names are not written in the book of life worshiped Nero, so that's part of the reason why I can't accept that the beast was Nero or any individual person.

 

[Hammster]

I'm very confident in my position, but would not try to say that my opinions/interpretations are facts like you did. Your opinions on this are not facts and neither are mine. Can you acknowledge that?

I guess I’m just more confident.

I take it literally that all whose names are not written in the book of life, without exception, worship the beast. Obviously, not all people whose names are not written in the book of life worshiped Nero, so that's part of the reason why I can't accept that the beast was Nero or any individual person.

Then you’ll do so in ignoring the context. Both Matthew 23/24 (plus other places in Matt) and Revelation have these events occurring within a generation of Jesus. “Whole world”, “all nations”, etc are hyperbole found all through scripture. It’s best to use proper hermeneutics when dealing with texts, especially apocalyptic ones.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I guess I’m just more confident.

Wrong. Opinions are not facts no matter how confident you are in your opinions.

Then you’ll do so in ignoring the context. Both Matthew 23/24 (plus other places in Matt) and Revelation have these events occurring within a generation of Jesus. “Whole world”, “all nations”, etc are hyperbole found all through scripture. It’s best to use proper hermeneutics when dealing with texts, especially apocalyptic ones.

I believe that I do. Your hermeneutics lead you to conclusions that make a mockery of the text. For example, when did the angels ever gather the elect (Matt 24:31)? That has clearly not yet happened. Your faulty hermeneutics prevent you from seeing that Matthew 24:29-31 is speaking of the same coming of Christ as 1 Thess 4:13-17, which has clearly not yet occurred. And it's the same coming of Christ referenced in Matthew 25:31-46, which also has clearly not yet occurred.

Your faulty hermeneutics lead you to believe that the end of the age already occurred in 70 AD even though Jesus made it clear that the end of the age will be marked by there being no more marriage or death (Luke 20:34-36).

 

[Hammster]

Wrong. Opinions are not facts no matter how confident you are in your opinions.

I believe that I do. Your hermeneutics lead you to conclusions that make a mockery of the text. When did the angels ever gather the elect (Matt 24:31). That has clearly not yet happened. Your faulty hermeneutics prevent you from seeing that Matthew 24:29-31 is speaking of the same coming of Christ as 1 Thess 4:13-17, which has clearly not yet occurred. And it's the same coming of Christ referenced in Matthew 25:31-46, which also has clearly not yet occurred.

You’ll have to conclude that if the angels haven’t gathered the elect then Jesus was wrong when he said it would happen within that generation. In fact, in each case where Jesus mentioned “this generation”, He actually meant that generation, and it was always concerning judgement of that generation. Jesus was doing away with the old covenant (end of the age) because of the unfaithfulness of the Jews. That’s what Matthew 23 and 24 are about. There’s nothing in the text itself that would lead the first century church to believe that He suddenly started talking about events that would happen 2000+ years into the future.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You’ll have to conclude that if the angels haven’t gathered the elect then Jesus was wrong when he said it would happen within that generation.

How exactly did the angels gather the elect back then? Be as specific as possible.

Do you believe that the coming of Christ mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31 is the same coming of Christ mentioned in Matthew 25:31-46? If so, tell me how Matthew 25:31-46 already happened.

In fact, in each case where Jesus mentioned “this generation”, He actually meant that generation, and it was always concerning judgement of that generation. Jesus was doing away with the old covenant (end of the age) because of the unfaithfulness of the Jews. That’s what Matthew 23 and 24 are about. There’s nothing in the text itself that would lead the first century church to believe that He suddenly started talking about events that would happen 2000+ years into the future.

When He spoke of "this generation" He wasn't talking only about the people living at that time or about a certain period of time, like a generation of 30 or 40 years. He was talking about a type of people. He referred to them as an evil or wicked and adulterous generation. He wasn't just talking about the people living at that time, but also about the ones who came before them who were just like them. Look up the Greek word "genea" (Strong's G1074) and educate yourself. It has more than one meaning. He was saying that wicked people like them would be around right up until His second coming at the end of this temporal age.

In Matthew 24:35-39 Jesus indicated that heaven and earth would pass away at His coming. Has that happened yet? You're not using Matt 24:35 to aid your understanding of Matt 24:34. The time when "this generation" would pass away is when heaven and earth passes away, which obviously has not yet occurred.

If Jesus was indicating that everything He spoke about previously, including His coming and the gathering of the elect, would happen within a certain time period, then why would He proceed to say that no one but the Father knows the day or hour of His coming? If He didn't know the day or hour then why would He say anything specific about when it would occur (such as within the next 40 years)? That would not make sense.

 

[BABerean2]

Governor Ron DeSantis on "Vaccine Passports" and freedom:

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[Hammster]

How exactly did the angels gather the elect back then? Be as specific as possible.

(I’m going to break this up since you are bringing up various things.)

The same way that angels (messengers) gather the elect today. They preach the gospel. See Romans 10. This is how Christ’s kingdom will continue to grow until He returns as the victorious king.