Is this a problem?

[FutureAndAHope]

[edit: I am changing this post to reflect the investigation of local evidence in my country. Rather than the all allogations I made before.]

I stated previously that I felt that abuse numbers were higher in the Catholic church due to mandatory Celabicy, but made some statistical errors, due to miss reading an article. I have researched more thoroughly, local Australian Statistics to get a better picture. These statistics were taken from a Royal Commission or government-run investigation.

To compare the Anglican church in the last census accounted for 13.3% of the population and 14.7% of abuse cases. Yet the catholic portion of the population was 22.6% but accounted for 61.8% percent of cases. If the Catholic Church, was the same as that denomination (as an example) you would expect its abuse cases to be around 20% but it accounts for 60% of cases. The catholic church having an extra 40% on top of other organizations 2/3 higher in abuse cases. The denomination that I am a part of makes up 1% of the population, but accounts for only 37 cases, out of 4029 cases, or 0.91% approximately 1%. So we see a trend the abuse in protestant churches, that the percentage of the population they make up to that level they offend. Where the Catholic church offends at a far higher rate, suggesting that there is an issue in the way the church deals with sexuality and sexual abuse.



[end edit]


Hi,


The following are shocking statistics, showing that the largest percentage of Child Sex Offences occur by the hand of the Catholic Church. However, I want to see what the response is from your quarter. If these statistics prove true, it suggests to me that there is a fundamental problem with the way the Catholic church is run, and more specifically for me the issue of Mandatory Celibacy causes sexual pressure and problems for the church.


The following was stated regarding US law suits:

By comparison, the nation’s Protestant churches have paid much less money to settle a much smaller number of lawsuits, according to a study last year by three criminologists, Andrew S. Denney, Kent R. Kerley and Nickolas G. Gross.

Lawsuits:


· $87.8 million to all the victims of all Protestant Churches. 2.74%

· $3.2 billion to Catholic Churches 97.25%

[edit: note the figures above are not accurate as I discuss later, as they reference different year lengths, $3.2 billion is all US cases, where as $87.8 million is between 1987 and 2007]

[edit: close estimates from law suits show:

The reality is a little less damning. 712 Catholic claims per year to 260 Protestant claims per year.

30% Protestant, to 70% catholic.

51.3 of the population being Protestant, and 23.9 of the population identifying as Catholic.

yet lawsuits of its self, may not be an adequate indicator.

]

As an example in New York

There were 105 Child Victims Act lawsuits against religious organizations in Western New York in the first two days those cases could be filed. But only two of them targeted religious organizations that are not Catholic.

1.9% other religions 98.1% Catholic


Does Catholic Church have bigger sex abuse problem than other religions?


The break down of offenses in Australia showed:


· 597 or 32 percent were religious brothers,

· 572 or 30 percent were priests,

· 543 or 29 percent were lay people,

· 96 or 5 percent were religious sisters,


7 Percent Of All Catholic Priests Were Alleged Sex Offenders: Royal Commission


That is 62% had taken a vow of Chasidy, or celibacy.

As a catholic what is your response to this?

 

[NerdGirl]

I think that mandated celibacy is certainly a contributing factor, though definitely not the only one. This scandal and poison runs very deep through the Catholic Church. It has tendrils all over the U.S. and the world.

 

[anna ~ grace]

It’s a problem. But not with chastity and celibacy.

Celibacy and chastity are not the issue. Married men can and do sexually abuse young people, too.

The problem is predatory priests, who use their position and title to do horrible things, to children, young adults, and older adults.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

The Catholic sex-abuse stories emerging every day suggest that Catholics have a much bigger problem with child molestation than other denominations and the general population. Many point to peculiarities of the Catholic Church (its celibacy rules for priests, its insular hierarchy, its exclusion of women) to infer that there's something particularly pernicious about Catholic clerics that predisposes them to these horrific acts. It's no wonder that, back in 2002—when the last Catholic sex-abuse scandal was making headlines—a Wall Street Journal-NBC News poll found that 64 percent of those queried thought Catholic priests "frequently'' abused children.

Yet experts say there's simply no data to support the claim at all. No formal comparative study has ever broken down child sexual abuse by denomination, and only the Catholic Church has released detailed data about its own. But based on the surveys and studies conducted by different denominations over the past 30 years, experts who study child abuse say they see little reason to conclude that sexual abuse is mostly a Catholic issue. "We don't see the Catholic Church as a hotbed of this or a place that has a bigger problem than anyone else," said Ernie Allen, president of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. "I can tell you without hesitation that we have seen cases in many religious settings, from traveling evangelists to mainstream ministers to rabbis and others."

Since the mid-1980s, insurance companies have offered sexual misconduct coverage as a rider on liability insurance, and their own studies indicate that Catholic churches are not higher risk than other congregations. Insurance companies that cover all denominations, such as Guide One Center for Risk Management, which has more than 40,000 church clients, does not charge Catholic churches higher premiums. "We don't see vast difference in the incidence rate between one denomination and another," says Sarah Buckley, assistant vice president of corporate communications. "It's pretty even across the denominations." It's been that way for decades. While the company saw an uptick in these claims by all types of churches around the time of the 2002 U.S. Catholic sex-abuse scandal, Eric Spacick, Guide One's senior church-risk manager, says "it's been pretty steady since." On average, the company says 80 percent of the sexual misconduct claims they get from all denominations involve sexual abuse of children. As a result, the more children's programs a church has, the more expensive its insurance, officials at Guide One said.

Priests Commit No More Abuse Than Other Males

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

So the statistics show that the idea that Catholic priests commit sexual sins against the young more than other groups is entirely false.

 

[Michie]

What’s the deal with public schools? Child care centers, etc.? Is it a problem? Well what would any reasonable person think?

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

What’s the deal with public schools? Child care centers, etc.? Is it a problem? Well what would any reasonable person think?

Of course they are.

 

[chevyontheriver]

What’s the deal with public schools? Child care centers, etc.? Is it a problem? Well what would any reasonable person think?

A reasonable attorney would follow the money. There is zero money in a lawsuit against the public schools. There is zero money in a lawsuit against your local Baptist or Methodist or non-denominational church. But there is a lot of money in lawsuits against the Catholic Church. Jeffrey Anderson has become a wealthy man in bringing every conceivable lawsuit against the Catholic Church. He has started lawsuits against the Boy Scouts. There is money to be had suing them too.

Our society is sick and sexual abuse is part of that sickness is found inside of the Catholic Church. It's disgusting. But it's not specifically or mostly a Catholic thing. Pretending that it is specifically or mostly a Catholic thing is a dangerous error because it allows so much of the problem to remain invisible.

We got a mess to fix in the Catholic Church. There is a Lavender Mafia whose power is at zenith. McCarrick was only part of it. There are rotten priests and rotten bishops and rotten cardinals and I'm not even sure about the last man those cardinals elected pope. It's gotta get fixed. But this isn't the only place where there's lots of rot. We'll fix the rot in the Catholic Church through prayer and fasting. I suspect elsewhere it will endure if nobody expects to see it elsewhere.

I know I just preached to the choir sending this to you. I'm a bit worked up about the latest from Joseph Sciambra though, where he hits the nail squarely and painfully on the head. We have a mess in the Catholic Church. It's just not worse than the mess in the rest of society.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

A reasonable attorney would follow the money. There is zero money in a lawsuit against the public schools. There is zero money in a lawsuit against your local Baptist or Methodist or non-denominational church. But there is a lot of money in lawsuits against the Catholic Church. Jeffrey Anderson has become a wealthy man in bringing every conceivable lawsuit against the Catholic Church. He has started lawsuits against the Boy Scouts. There is money to be had suing them too.

Our society is sick and sexual abuse is part of that sickness is found inside of the Catholic Church. It's disgusting. But it's not specifically or mostly a Catholic thing. Pretending that it is specifically or mostly a Catholic thing is a dangerous error because it allows so much of the problem to remain invisible.

We got a mess to fix in the Catholic Church. There is a Lavender Mafia whose power is at zenith. McCarrick was only part of it. There are rotten priests and rotten bishops and rotten cardinals and I'm not even sure about the last man those cardinals elected pope. It's gotta get fixed. But this isn't the only place where there's lots of rot. We'll fix the rot in the Catholic Church through prayer and fasting. I suspect elsewhere it will endure if nobody expects to see it elsewhere.

I know I just preached to the choir sending this to you. I'm a bit worked up about the latest from Joseph Sciambra though, where he hits the nail squarely and painfully on the head. We have a mess in the Catholic Church. It's just not worse than the mess in the rest of society.

believe me I was not defending the Catholic church in that sense. Look at my old posts when I used to post articles from Bishop accountability and took plenty of heat here. But the rooster came home to crow.

What bothers me is when outsiders so to speak pop in and act like such crimes are exclusive to the catholic church.

 

[chevyontheriver]

believe me I was not defending the Catholic church in that sense. Look at my old posts when I used to post articles from Bishop accountability and took plenty of heat here. But the rooster came home to crow.

It crows loudly.

I wasn't pointing this at you AT ALL.

What bothers me is when outsiders so to speak pop in and act like such crimes are exclusive to the catholic church.

Exactly. They haven't looked under their own rugs yet.

 

[Michie]

A reasonable attorney would follow the money. There is zero money in a lawsuit against the public schools. There is zero money in a lawsuit against your local Baptist or Methodist or non-denominational church. But there is a lot of money in lawsuits against the Catholic Church. Jeffrey Anderson has become a wealthy man in bringing every conceivable lawsuit against the Catholic Church. He has started lawsuits against the Boy Scouts. There is money to be had suing them too.

Our society is sick and sexual abuse is part of that sickness is found inside of the Catholic Church. It's disgusting. But it's not specifically or mostly a Catholic thing. Pretending that it is specifically or mostly a Catholic thing is a dangerous error because it allows so much of the problem to remain invisible.

We got a mess to fix in the Catholic Church. There is a Lavender Mafia whose power is at zenith. McCarrick was only part of it. There are rotten priests and rotten bishops and rotten cardinals and I'm not even sure about the last man those cardinals elected pope. It's gotta get fixed. But this isn't the only place where there's lots of rot. We'll fix the rot in the Catholic Church through prayer and fasting. I suspect elsewhere it will endure if nobody expects to see it elsewhere.

I know I just preached to the choir sending this to you. I'm a bit worked up about the latest from Joseph Sciambra though, where he hits the nail squarely and painfully on the head. We have a mess in the Catholic Church. It's just not worse than the mess in the rest of society.

You read that too? I was afraid to post it but you are correct. Joseph Sciambra’s experiences break my heart and the Church did not help him. At. All.

Surviving the Catholic Church

 

[Michie]

It crows loudly.

I wasn't pointing this at you AT ALL.

Exactly. They haven't looked under their own rugs yet.

I found the title of the thread very offensive and telling. I was going to let it slide into oblivion because I thought it disingenuous.

 

[Bob Crowley]

I think that mandated celibacy is certainly a contributing factor, though definitely not the only one. This scandal and poison runs very deep through the Catholic Church. It has tendrils all over the U.S. and the world.

I lifted the following quote from one of the the links provided by the OP above viz. 7 Percent Of All Catholic Priests Were Alleged Sex Offenders: Royal Commission

• [*]78 percent male, 22 percent female — gender of the person making the claim,
  [*]97 percent male — people who made claims of child sexual abuse received by religious orders, with only religious brother members,

Note that the majority of abuses were against males. I fail to see how mandated celibacy is the cause when it is clear most of the offenders had a homosexual leaning in the first place, with males making up the overwhelming majority of victims.

And most child victims are abused by a parent, according to the following link -

National Child Abuse Statistics from NCA

Where and how child abuse happens
Most child victims are abused by a parent. In substantiated child abuse cases, 78% of children were victimized by a parent.1

Child-on-child abuse is common. At CACs in 2019, 22% of people alleged to have abused a child were themselves children (in cases where we knew the age of the alleged abuser). 14% of the total were teenagers.

How does that justify your stance that priests should not be celibate?

As far as I'm concerned it's just one more furphy used to attack the Catholic Church, and its a load of tripe.

 

[chevyontheriver]

You read that too? I was afraid to post it but you are correct. Joseph Sciambra’s experiences break my heart and the Church did not help him. At. All.

It breaks my heart too.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I found the title of the thread very offensive and telling. I was going to let it slide into oblivion because I thought it disingenuous.

I think it was disingenuous too.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Ok, I am open to investigating what you have said. But I want to get to the truth.

surveys and studies conducted by different denominations over the past 30 years, experts who study child abuse say they see little reason to conclude that sexual abuse is mostly a Catholic issue. "We don't see the Catholic Church as a hotbed of this or a place that has a bigger problem than anyone else," said Ernie Allen, president of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. "I can tell you without hesitation that we have seen cases in many religious settings, from traveling evangelists to mainstream ministers to rabbis and others."

I had a look at the surveys, and the studies you listed. There was only one study by the Presbyterian church, they suggested:

"between 10 and 23 percent of clergy nationwide have engaged in sexualized behavior or sexual contact with parishioners, clients, employees, etc., within a professional relationship." In an informal church survey of 50 presbyteries, 60 reported cases of sexual misconduct were found to be under investigation.

Note this includes all kinds of sexual misconduct not just, child sex offenses. But the figures are similar to the Catholic Offenses in Australia said to be around 7% of priests.

Since the mid-1980s, insurance companies have offered sexual misconduct coverage as a rider on liability insurance, and their own studies indicate that Catholic churches are not higher risk than other congregations. Insurance companies that cover all denominations, such as Guide One Center for Risk Management, which has more than 40,000 church clients, does not charge Catholic churches higher premiums. "We don't see vast difference in the incidence rate between one denomination and another," says Sarah Buckley, assistant vice president of corporate communications. "It's pretty even across the denominations." It's been that way for decades. While the company saw an uptick in these claims by all types of churches around the time of the 2002 U.S. Catholic sex-abuse scandal, Eric Spacick, Guide One's senior church-risk manager, says "it's been pretty steady since." On average, the company says 80 percent of the sexual misconduct claims they get from all denominations involve sexual abuse of children. As a result, the more children's programs a church has, the more expensive its insurance, officials at Guide One said.

This appears on surface value to support your case, but there are no studies referenced, so it is hard to tell.

I will have a closer look at the data provided by the study completed by criminologists, Andrew S. Denney, Kent R. Kerley and Nickolas G. Gross, becasue it is the newest study.

Because the percentages may not be as damning, as what was reported in the news article of:

· $87.8 million to all the victims of all Protestant Churches. 2.74%

· $3.2 billion to Catholic Churches 97.25%

But if New York, on the given day, is a true indicator of abuse, then we need to look deeper.

There were 105 Child Victims Act lawsuits against religious organizations in Western New York in the first two days those cases could be filed. But only two of them targeted religious organizations that are not Catholic.

Because the percentages do match the dollar figures in the article. BUt two days is not necessarily a good indicator of a full year, or years.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

These two figures that I presented are not accurate:

· $87.8 million to all the victims of all Protestant Churches. 2.74%

· $3.2 billion to Catholic Churches 97.25%

As they reference different year spans. In a closer inspection of the article.

$3.2 billion is the amount paid out by the catholic church in the US. Most claims occurring after 2002.

$87.8 equates to Protestant's, reporting 7,095 claims of alleged sexual abuse by clergy, church staff, congregation members or volunteers between 1987 and 2007. That is an average of 260 cases anually.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

The reality is a little less damning. 712 Catholic claims per year to 260 Protestant claims per year.

30% Protestant, to 70% catholic.

51.3 of the population being Protestant, and 23.9 of the population identifying as Catholic.


An average of 712 claims of sexual abuse of children were made annually against Catholic priests during the years 1990-2002, according to a 2006 study by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.


By comparison, the nation’s Protestant churches have paid much less money to settle a much smaller number of lawsuits, according to a study last year by three criminologists, Andrew S. Denney, Kent R. Kerley and Nickolas G. Gross.

The study by the three criminologists said insurance companies that provide coverage for 165,500 churches and religious organizations, most of them Protestant, reported 7,095 claims of alleged sexual abuse by clergy, church staff, congregation members or volunteers between 1987 and 2007. That is an average of 260 sexual abuse claims annually, resulting in payments totaling $87.8 million to all the victims.

In Australia, the catholic church represented 60% of all abuses reported to the Comission.

“The Catholic Church represents over 60% of all reported abuses to the recent Royal Commission.

Lawyer representing child sexual abuse victims welcomes Catholic Church participation in National Redress Scheme - Maddens Lawyers

 

[Bob Crowley]

In the Australian census of 2016, the percentages of religious affiliation were as follows -

No religion (30.1%)
Catholic (22.6%)
Anglican (13.3%)
Other Christian (16.3%)
Islam (2.6%)
Buddhism (2.4%)
Hinduism (1.9%)
Other religions (1.7%)
Not stated or unclear (9.1%)

If you take the Christian percentage alone, the total is about 52.2% of which the Catholic share is about 43%.

However the Royal Commission investigated all forms of institutional abuse, whether it be churches, boy scouts, Salvos, YMCA, Schools, the defence force, and even a place or cult called the Mangrove Yoga Ashram.

Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse - Wikipedia

In the case of the Catholic Church, the percentages of offenders per religious order were as follows -

St John of God Brothers 40..4
Christian Brothers 22.0
Salesians of Don Bosco 21.9
Marist Brothers 20.4
De La Salle Brothers 13.8
Patrician Brothers 12.4
Society of Jesus 4.8
Missionaries of the Sacred Heart 3.3
Sisters of St Joseph of the Sacred Heart 0.6
Sisters of Mercy (Brisbane) 0.3

This means that in some orders the percentage of offenders was very high. In others it was quite small. Reading between the lines, it would appear the main offenders were in orders that ran schools, orphanages or other types of educational or social welfare.

They were predominantly male, and the majority of their victims were male.

Again reading between the lines, I get the impression that ordinary parish priests were generally non-offenders.

 

[narnia59]

The reality is a little less damning. 712 Catholic claims per year to 260 Protestant claims per year.

Is this based upon the year the claim was filed or the year the abuse occurred?

Edited to add -- I think it's based on the year the claim was filed, not the year the abuse occured.

• Since 1950, 13,000 credible accusations were brought against Catholic priests; this averages 228 cases per year.

• Sex Abuse in Protestant Churches: Three insurance companies in the United States that provide liability coverage for 165,000 Protestant churches revealed data to the Associated Press that they typically receive 260 reports every year of children being sexually abused by Protestant clergy or other staff.