Is this a heresy?

buzuxi02

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I was wondering whether the title of Son of God was eternally attributed to Him and whether there was some historical council decision that would name what I think as heresy.

Thanks;
Mike

That would be Nicea. The Arians borrowing a phrase from an apologetic work of Tertullian taught that "there was a time the Son was not".


Nicea having rejected the Arian christology stated: And in one Lord Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of God... Light of light, God of God, Begotten not created.... The opening article already stating He is the "the Father the almighty".

The Nicene article, "begotten not made" is preceded by a declaration of Christ's deity (true God of true God) is how many Eastern Father's still read the original of John's gospel; "The only-begotten God" (John 1:18). Hence the phrase the only- begotten God cannot be at point of incarnation but eternal.
 
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buzuxi02

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I agree that it was Jesus in the fire with them, but technically, the king said "like a son of the gods" (see the more modern translations), which proves nothing regarding the eternal Sonship of Christ.



Once again, the newer translations reveal that it is more proper to place an "a" before "Son of Man".

This is because the word Elohim is in plural. That's why in the book of Genesis, God speaks in plural. It's also why the Hebrew version has the serpent telling Eve that if she eats of the fruit; 'you will become like God'. While the Greek Septuagint says, you will become like gods (Θεοι). The Daniel verse depends on whether it's a Hebrew or Greek translator.
 
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Keath

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Actually, the Nicene Creed (325) does not say "eternally begotten of the Father", but the Creed of Constantinople (381) does say He was begotten "before all worlds (aeons)" (all of that according to Wikipedia). Still looking for the phrase "eternally begotten" even though the Creed of Constantinople does make my understanding heretical, or at least not in line with that council's creed.

Thanks again.
mike
This scripture at least touches on the eternal topic - Rev 13:8 - "...all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world." You could potentially make an indirect argument that if Jesus is the Lamb who was capable of being slain 'from the creation of the world', that then His 'begottenness' likely also transcended time (i.e., eternal).
 
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Anguspure

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No, Son of God is NOT analogy that breaks down. It's what St. Peter replied to the question, "Who do you that that I am," and Jesus approved of it.

Christ is risen!
Perhaps you misunderstand me; the title "Christ" does not describe a "Son". The title "Lord" does not describe a "Christ" and none of these describe the "Word" or "Creator" and yet the person of Jesus encompasses all of these things. Each of these titles is incomplete and fails at a certain point because each of them only describes one small part of Him.
 
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stuart lawrence

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I understand Jesus to be the eternal Word of God thru whom God created the universe, and that He became the Son of God at His Incarnation. Is this heresy?
In my experience, those who accuse others of heresy don't know as much as they think they know.
As long as you believe,( according to the Bible anyway) the Son of God died for your sins at Calvary you are fine.
The BIBLICAL requirement of belief is what matters!
 
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hedrick

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Heb 1:5 probably reflects at least preexistence, if not eternal Sonship. "This day I have begotten thee" might sound like he becomes Son at the incarnation, but if you read the following verses the sonship is clearly before history. "And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says" and "But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom." and "In the beginning, Lord, you founded the earth," (where Lord pretty clearly refers to Christ.)

Why "this day I have begotten...?" It's possible that the author quoted the passage more for the begotten than the "this day," understanding "this day" as being in eternity. I think it's more likely that what he meant by begotten in that verse was bringing the eternal Son into history. Orthodox theologians have said that Christ was begotten twice, once as the eternal Son in eternity and once as human in history. So you'd read it "you are my [eternal] Son. This day I have begotten thee [as human]." That would then make it parallel with 6, which says he brings the firstborn into the world.
 
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dqhall

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I understand Jesus to be the eternal Word of God thru whom God created the universe, and that He became the Son of God at His Incarnation. Is this heresy?
Heresy is a rather severe condemnation of minor differences in arguments about semantics (logical aspects of meaning).

Jesus stated that he and the father were one (John 10:30). He was accused of blasphemy because of this remark. He also stated he was subordinate to his father. His father was greater than he.

John 14:27 Peace I leave with you. My peace I give to you; not as the world gives, give I to you. Don't let your heart be troubled, neither let it be fearful. 28 You heard how I told you, 'I go away, and I come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I said 'I am going to my Father;' for the Father is greater than I. 29 Now I have told you before it happens so that, when it happens, you may believe. 30 I will no more speak much with you, for the prince of the world comes, and he has nothing in me. 31 But that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father commanded me, even so I do. Arise, let us go from here. World English Bible
 
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Albion

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You're right that a heresy by definition is a rejection of an essential doctrine, not a disagreement over a lesser issue. In this case, it's not so easy to say, since the issue seems to concern the nature of God--that would be at the level of a heresy--but, at the same time, it may be only a matter of terminology. Personally, I've had a little problem knowing which one is under consideration as I've read through the posts in this thread.
 
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Butch5

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I understand Jesus to be the eternal Word of God thru whom God created the universe, and that He became the Son of God at His Incarnation. Is this heresy?
He became the Son when He cam forth out of God the Father.
 
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Danbha

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I think the problem comes when trying to fit the Infinite into the finite. It's beyond our human conception how this works. Time, as such, is irrelevant to God, who is the same yesterday, today and forever. Time is part of the creation, God exists both in and outside of creation. God also knows that we have finite brains that cause us to see through a glass darkly. He isn't going to hold us to blame for something as hair-splitting as out concept of "when" Jesus became God's son. He'd rather have us focus on the fact that He IS God's Son and that he died for our sins.
 
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1213

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I understand Jesus to be the eternal Word of God thru whom God created the universe, and that He became the Son of God at His Incarnation. Is this heresy?

I think that is not Biblical. Bible teaches that Jesus is the image of God and God’s temple. God dwells in Jesus.

The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works.
John 14:10-14

For in him all the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily,
Colossians 2:9

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews therefore said, "Forty-six years was this temple in building, and will you raise it up in three days?" But he spoke of the temple of his body.
John 2:19-21

in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins; who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him were all things created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.
Colossians 1:14-16
 
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Serving Zion

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how could Jesus be called the Son of Man before His Incarnation?
Traditional teaching is that The Word of God is not The Father, but was with The Father, and was Himself God. Thus, there are created beings (eg, "watchers of men"), who have existed alongside Christ before His human incarnation as Jesus. There are spirits who speak alongside The Word of God, yet do not represent God. Discernment is required of a Christian to recognise The Holy Spirit. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, that we beheld His glory.

Ephesians 4:9 shows that St. Paul understood The Son as having descended to earth.

The difference being that Jesus did not have a human body of His own before the incarnation (according to our knowledge), so The Word of God would speak spiritually where the physical manifestations of creation (prophets, donkeys, burning bushes etc) would assist His message to strike our heart.

By becoming human and speaking words of His own volition, He has achieved John 15:22. Yet, the world did not receive Him, rather in their heart was a weakness of sin leading to covetousness (Matthew 21:38-39). So the world was thrust into darkness (John 12:35). Because of this, that He was cut short before having achieved completeness of His Messianic duty (Daniel 9:26), He has established the Alpha of The Kingdom of God, that we carry forth in His name (Luke 12:49-50) while He reigns from heaven as before, but having personally established His Word in earth.

For all things have been created through Him, and for Him.

Psalms 8:4 is one example of the phrase "son of man" - showing that the prophets used the phrase "son of man" to describe a servant of God, a human who is reverent and pursuing faith in Him. So, Jesus called Himself the "son of Man" in the same way, to take on that identity and to take that identity to the cross such that no other son of man could do (Ecclesiastes 3:18), so that we sons of men who follow Him, can be empowered to carry a new title in His name through having been bonded to Him through the covenant of our baptism. When Jesus' work is perfected in us (Hebrews 10:14), we are empowered to be called "sons of God". (John 1:12-13, 1 Corinthians 6:3, Revelation 19:9, Romans 8:15, Revelation 21:2).
 
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LadyCrosstalk

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Thanks for the response Albion. I do believe that Jesus Christ is co-eternal with the Father, of one Being with Him and the Holy Spirit. I was wondering whether the title of Son of God was eternally attributed to Him and whether there was some historical council decision that would name what I think as heresy.

Thanks;
Mike


In Eastern Orthodoxy, they say that the Son is the "begotten of the Father" and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father but that all three are "co-eternal" and "share one being". The Great Schism between the Eastern and the Western Church came over some wording that each considers to be in error by the other. Heresy is in the eye of the beholder, it seems. That is why we need to be determined to cling to Scripture as our teacher and guide, relying on the Holy Spirit to interpret it for us. (see 1 John 2:27).
 
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food4thought

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Why "this day I have begotten...?" It's possible that the author quoted the passage more for the begotten than the "this day," understanding "this day" as being in eternity. I think it's more likely that what he meant by begotten in that verse was bringing the eternal Son into history. Orthodox theologians have said that Christ was begotten twice, once as the eternal Son in eternity and once as human in history. So you'd read it "you are my [eternal] Son. This day I have begotten thee [as human]." That would then make it parallel with 6, which says he brings the firstborn into the world.

Thank you Hedrick, that was helpful.
 
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com7fy8

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I understand Jesus to be the eternal Word of God thru whom God created the universe, and that He became the Son of God at His Incarnation. Is this heresy?
Officially, a number of groups might say that is heresy.

But if you think this, I think you simply need to consider John 17:1-5. Jesus shared with our Heavenly Father, in our Father's own glory before the earth was. So, by relating so with our Father so personally and intimately in a family way, this shows Jesus was then His Son.

Plus, the Bible says God made man in His own image > Genesis chapter one > and man is three basic family persons . . . father, child, and mother . . . like God is Father and Son and Holy Spirit.

So, I consider that God was Father and Son and Holy Spirit before They made man. So, Jesus was the Son, then . . . before Adam and Eve were made in God's image.

So, if you now still think Jesus became the Son, I would say that could be stubborn. But if you were to separate yourself from Christians who are a good example of how to be and how to love, and if you were doing this because you value your idea more than sharing with God's own people, then this would be heresy.
 
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lsume

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I understand Jesus to be the eternal Word of God thru whom God created the universe, and that He became the Son of God at His Incarnation. Is this heresy?
All things that were created both visible and invisible were created by, through and for Jesus The Christ.

Col.1 Verses 14 to 20


  1. [14] In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
    [15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
    [16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
    [18] And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
    [19] For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
    [20] And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
The reason that Christ prayed so fervently in the garden of Gethsemanie was because for the first time in eternity He was going to experience being separated from God The Father. That is my definition of hell. Christ is perfect and totally deserving of His station. Such a sacrifice is beyond human comprehension. I believe that God The Father and Jesus The Christ and God The Holy Spirit are each unique but all are one in Spirit.

I'm not sure what you think might be considered heresy.
 
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