Is this a final proof of free will?

Nithavela

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Think about it, when you`re having a massage the only reason it feels so good is because it`s random, right, so a machine couldn`t do the same thing, don`t that prove that the randomness in the movement of hands prove that the person has free will?
Would you enjoy a punch to the back of the head during your massage?
 
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The IbanezerScrooge

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Think about it, when you`re having a massage the only reason it feels so good is because it`s random, right, so a machine couldn`t do the same thing, don`t that prove that the randomness in the movement of hands prove that the person has free will?

Only if it proves cats also have free will. Have you ever noticed how cats kneed? Pretty much the same thing. I'm all for free willed cats, BTW.
 
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Petros2015

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when you`re having a massage the only reason it feels so good is because it`s random, right, so a machine couldn`t do the same thing, don`t that prove that the randomness in the movement of hands prove that the person has free will?

We could probably build a robotic random massage generator, but I don't think anyone would say thank you.

BTW, random number generators from computers aren't random... turns out it's really hard to get a random number. Might be a counter-argument, at least as strong as the one you are making.

Random numbers are not Random!

I once tried to crack Keno based on this... my thought was, if I could get the first few sequences at the beginning of the day and brute force figure out the seed it used before the end of the day, I'd know every answer it was going to come up with for the rest of the day...

but a) it was a lot more complex than I was giving it credit for (I think they gave some people like me some thought along the way ;) I'm pretty sure it also chooses a random number of random numbers in between each actual 'winning' random number that it reports on a given run
and b) I had nowhere near the computing power I needed even if it didn't

Of course, that was back in the early 2000's.

Still might be easier to mine Keno than bitcoin though ;)
 
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sjastro

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Think about it, when you`re having a massage the only reason it feels so good is because it`s random, right, so a machine couldn`t do the same thing, don`t that prove that the randomness in the movement of hands prove that the person has free will?
Ever heard of alien hand syndrome?
 
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Petros2015

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"Bogen suggested that certain personality characteristics, such as a flamboyant personality, contribute to frequent personification of the affected hand."

Heh. Boy, do they ever ;)

 
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Ceallaigh

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Think about it, when you`re having a massage the only reason it feels so good is because it`s random, right, so a machine couldn`t do the same thing, don`t that prove that the randomness in the movement of hands prove that the person has free will?

What about massage chairs?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Think about it, when you`re having a massage the only reason it feels so good is because it`s random, right, so a machine couldn`t do the same thing, don`t that prove that the randomness in the movement of hands prove that the person has free will?
No.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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We could probably build a robotic random massage generator, but I don't think anyone would say thank you.

BTW, random number generators from computers aren't random... turns out it's really hard to get a random number. Might be a counter-argument, at least as strong as the one you are making.

Random numbers are not Random!

I once tried to crack Keno based on this... my thought was, if I could get the first few sequences at the beginning of the day and brute force figure out the seed it used before the end of the day, I'd know every answer it was going to come up with for the rest of the day...

but a) it was a lot more complex than I was giving it credit for (I think they gave some people like me some thought along the way ;) I'm pretty sure it also chooses a random number of random numbers in between each actual 'winning' random number that it reports on a given run
and b) I had nowhere near the computing power I needed even if it didn't

Of course, that was back in the early 2000's.

Still might be easier to mine Keno than bitcoin though ;)
Some ways of computer-generating pseudorandom numbers involve timing unpredictable external inputs (e.g. user input), so don't involve hackable algorithms.
 
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Petros2015

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Some ways of computer-generating pseudorandom numbers involve timing unpredictable external inputs (e.g. user input), so don't involve hackable algorithms.

Yeah it looks like they are tying into things like weather patterns and such now
Oh well, back to the drawing board ;)
 
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Noxot

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I recommend this difficult paper dealing with neuroscience and quantum physics for the potential of free will choice which makes up consciousness and that proto-consciousness is a fundamental part of the universe. I think that this can open up the doors to ideas like higher dimensions of spirit (such as emanuel swedenborgs descriptions of heaven and how spirits influence us) via things like new physics and new types of quantum entanglement. they draw some ideas by A.N. Whitehead too, his type of "panpsychism". they are taking an attempt at furthering the conceptions of quantum gravity and consciousness.

I think that freedom can only exist if higher realities like spirit are involved due to freedom and thus spirit being higher on the metaphysical hierarchy. what appears to be determinism is just a limitation and crystallization of higher and more fundamental realities though I suspect that one must develop themselves in order to maintain a spiritual freedom, which is why many people who don't bother much with themselves have their freedom hijacked by outward forces. if one does not have an active freedom their passivity still acts as their freedom. if one is not alive then they tend to be dead and the symbol of what death vs life implies is pretty obvious. this is why Jesus told us something like "to know God is to know life everlasting". and such things as that "with the spirit there is liberty" and "you shall know the truth and it makes you free".

Consciousness in the universe: A review of the ‘Orch OR’ theory
Stuart Hameroff, Roger Penrose

Consciousness in the universe: A review of the ‘Orch OR’ theory - ScienceDirect

Abstract
The nature of consciousness, the mechanism by which it occurs in the brain, and its ultimate place in the universe are unknown. We proposed in the mid 1990's that consciousness depends on biologically ‘orchestrated’ coherent quantum processes in collections of microtubules within brain neurons, that these quantum processes correlate with, and regulate, neuronal synaptic and membrane activity, and that the continuous Schrödinger evolution of each such process terminates in accordance with the specific Diósi–Penrose (DP) scheme of ‘objective reduction’ (‘OR’) of the quantum state. This orchestrated OR activity (‘Orch OR’) is taken to result in moments of conscious awareness and/or choice. The DP form of OR is related to the fundamentals of quantum mechanics and space–time geometry, so Orch OR suggests that there is a connection between the brain's biomolecular processes and the basic structure of the universe. Here we review Orch OR in light of criticisms and developments in quantum biology, neuroscience, physics and cosmology. We also introduce a novel suggestion of ‘beat frequencies’ of faster microtubule vibrations as a possible source of the observed electro-encephalographic (‘EEG’) correlates of consciousness. We conclude that consciousness plays an intrinsic role in the universe.


Highlights

The Orch OR theory proposes quantum computations in brain microtubules account for consciousness.


Microtubule ‘quantum channels’ in which anesthetics erase consciousness are identified.


Evidence for warm quantum vibrations in brain microtubules is cited.


Interference of microtubule vibrations are ‘beat frequencies’ seen as EEG.


Orch OR links consciousness to processes in fundamental space–time geometry.
 
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SelfSim

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I think that this can open up the doors to ideas like higher dimensions of spirit (such as emanuel swedenborgs descriptions of heaven and how spirits influence us) via things like new physics and new types of quantum entanglement. they draw some ideas by A.N. Whitehead too, his type of "panpsychism". they are taking an attempt at furthering the conceptions of quantum gravity and consciousness.

I think that freedom can only exist if higher realities like spirit are involved due to freedom and thus spirit being higher on the metaphysical hierarchy. what appears to be determinism is just a limitation and crystallization of higher and more fundamental realities though I suspect that one must develop themselves in order to maintain a spiritual freedom, which is why many people who don't bother much with themselves have their freedom hijacked by outward forces. if one does not have an active freedom their passivity still acts as their freedom. if one is not alive then they tend to be dead and the symbol of what death vs life implies is pretty obvious. this is why Jesus told us something like "to know God is to know life everlasting". and such things as that "with the spirit there is liberty" and "you shall know the truth and it makes you free".
.. 'Another day .. another Doug' (or pseudoscientific belief) .. :rolleyes::

 
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Noxot

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.. 'Another day .. another Doug' (or pseudoscientific belief) .. :rolleyes::

I guess you don't know who roger penrose is. ofc I have ideas that he does not, he is much more of a scientist than I and his scientific tribe looks down upon ideas such as God so it's not reasonable to think that in general scientific types of persons in this age have the same kinds of metaphysics as someone like I would. I understand that when your main identity is that of a scientist that you will tend to use things like empiricism and skepticism more than normies. it comes with the job even though it's easy enough to be more than only those things.

I don't understand the meme but i'm sure its funny. if you want to explain it to me you might afford me a laugh.
 
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SelfSim

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.. I don't understand the meme but i'm sure its funny. if you want to explain it to me you might afford me a laugh.
You'd have ta see the movie. Korg, (the rock being with the New Zealander accent) has a friend, 'Doug', who is dead because he lost to the incredible Hulk in a gladiator tournament. Everyone who goes up against the Hulk ends up dead .. and when Thor has a go, (as the clip shows), he basically ends up pretty much the same way .. so when Korg sees the end coming for Thor, he turns away and sighs: 'Another day .. another Doug'.
But somehow, Thor doesn't actually die ..

I was using it to point out the futility of invoking metaphysical notions in a science forum (even though the topic is about 'proving' free will) but also, knowing that Thor is a god, and knowing he survives the battle with Hulk, is: "to know god, (or Thor in this case), is to know life everlasting" (because he survives).

Oh well .. it appealed to my sense of humour .. (apologies if others might not see it that way). Don't take it too seriously.
Cheers
 
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Estrid

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Think about it, when you`re having a massage the only reason it feels so good is because it`s random, right, so a machine couldn`t do the same thing, don`t that prove that the randomness in the movement of hands prove that the person has free will?
No
 
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