Is there salvation in obedience to Christian social mores and norms?

[Saint Steven]

How much of the expected social behavior in our Christian fellowships are social expectations with no spiritual or biblical basis?
(those who disagree will come back with plenty of "biblical" basis, I suppose)

I remember having a bit of culture shock in a church merger I was a part of.
These fine folks were operating (unapologetically) under a different set of social mores and norms than our church.

I'm not suggesting that we cast off all social and moral restraint,
but those of us raised more conservatively need to perhaps be a bit more liberal in
our view of those raised with more social "elbow room"?

- At what point do we apply behavioral concerns? See comment below.

- Do we err when shunning (or judging) others with differing social mores?

- Jesus made friends with "sinners" and hung out with them. (was judged for it)
See Matthew 11:19 and Matthew 9:10-12

At a Valentines Day church gathering at a local restaurant our new members were smoking and ordering alcoholic drinks.
That was a bit of culture shock for me, and for our Senior Pastor, who made a new rule to disallow alcohol at church functions.

This gave me pause.
Did we handle this correctly?
The new merger guests seemed to understand and comply, so as not to offend the merger fellowship, but... ???

Your thoughts?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I think because there are still ties to colonialism to the gospel, manners imposed by European Noble Families might be the culprit in a lot of cases.

For example, even God is vulgar towards hypocrites. However, it is a common rule among the religious to not use vulgar language even in such situations.

 

[Brother-Mike]

How much of the expected social behavior in our Christian fellowships are social expectations with no spiritual or biblical basis?

I presume by "mores and norms" you mean extra-scriptural customs and habits, as opposed to direct biblical prohibitions or otherwise behavior that's clearly analogous to prohibitions (e.g. the Bible never mentions recreational Fentanyl use but clearly this would fit the prohibitions against sinful drunkenness, harming oneself and others, illegality, etc).

Then I would say that mores and norms have nothing to do with salvation. I myself don't think tobacco or respectful alcohol use should be restricted nor judged in Christian fellowship. And the compliance of those other members is a loss, not a gain.

My two cents at least.

 

[Saint Steven]

I presume by "mores and norms" you mean extra-scriptural customs and habits, as opposed to direct biblical prohibitions...

Yes.
Basically nothing that violates our God-given conscience.
However, I think many have taken on a "social" conscience to prohibit things.
Both inside and outside Christian social culture.

And... what is, or is not, biblical is a debatable thing. There is no consensus.
The guests in the merger I mentioned in my OP were gracious enough to restrain their behavior at church functions.

Romans 14:19-21 NIV
13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another.
Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. ...
19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.
20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person
to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble.
21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else
that will cause your brother or sister to fall.

 

[Brother-Mike]

However, I think many have taken on a "social" conscience to prohibit things.

Absolutely. Legalism vs. License is as old as Man.

And... what is, or is not, biblical is a debatable thing. There is no consensus.

Sometimes. Clearly something like recreational Fentanyl use can be agreed upon by most Christians as not fruitful. Or murder.

The guests in the merger I mentioned in my OP were gracious enough to restrain their behavior at church functions.

My earlier point about "loss" was referring to - in my opinion - the danger that at least some of those new members are silently complying only to keep the peace, despite possibly not understanding why your Senior Pastor is imposing a new norm for them or being involved in the decision. You certainly know better than I how it was decided and communicated so maybe I'm missing information.

Romans 14:19-21 NIV
13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another.
Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. ...
19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.
20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person
to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble.
21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else
that will cause your brother or sister to fall.

The problem with Romans 14:20 first clause of course is that it cuts both ways, no? If my previous adult-only church events permitted a beer or a glass of wine but now post-merge it's being forbidden couldn't I also claim Romans 14:20?

 

[Saint Steven]

The problem with Romans 14:20 first clause of course is that it cuts both ways, no? If my previous adult-only church events permitted a beer or a glass of wine but now post-merge it's being forbidden couldn't I also claim Romans 14:20?

Yes. I agree.
Also depends on how we define "the work of God".
Where do food and beverage choices (within reason) fit in the work of God?

The word "but" (in the second clause) is the hinge word on this. IMHO
We abstain when we put the well-being of others before our own desires.
Which requires discernment and grace.

Romans 14:19-21 NIV
13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another.
Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. ...
19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.
20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person
to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble.
21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else
that will cause your brother or sister to fall.

 

[d taylor]

-​

I think a person / a church member having very a very high moral code is fine as long as they understand that is not how a person receives God's free gift of Eternal Life. But rather that they would believe that after they have trusted in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life. That they see living a life of a high moral code, as pleasing to God in that they are seeking to as best they can, live a life like, the life of The Messiah. As The Bible states Jesus wants friendship with believers, and a friend would not (or should not) live a life that will harm the friendship.

Spurious or Secret Saints? – John 2:23-25 – Grace Evangelical Society

faithalone.org

 

[Saint Steven]

... live a life like, the life of The Messiah. As The Bible states Jesus wants friendship with believers, and a friend would not (or should not) live a life that will harm the friendship.

Jesus was criticized for the company he kept. What do you make of that?

Matthew 11:18-19 NIV
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’
19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard,
a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.”

 

[d taylor]

Jesus was criticized for the company he kept. What do you make of that?

Matthew 11:18-19 NIV
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’
19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard,
a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.”

-
​

But Jesus was criticized for a different reason. He was presenting Himself as The Promised Messiah, so the ruling political leaders were looking for any reason to find fault in Him, being that He did not fit their idea of what The Messiah should be. Like the verses you posted, they are dealing with God presenting The Kingdom of God both ways by John and Jesus, but the Jews rejected both ways because they rejected Jesus as The Messiah.

Really do not see the application of those verses to how a believer should conduct their lives. Paul addresses conduct of believers quite a few times.

 

[Saint Steven]

Really do not see the application of those verses to how a believer should conduct their lives. Paul addresses conduct of believers quite a few times.

This is not adding up for me. Please help me to understand. Thanks.

Your earlier post said this...

I think a person / a church member having very a very high moral code is fine as long as they understand that is not how a person receives God's free gift of Eternal Life. But rather that they would believe that after they have trusted in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life. That they see living a life of a high moral code, as pleasing to God in that they are seeking to as best they can, live a life like, the life of The Messiah. As The Bible states Jesus wants friendship with believers, and a friend would not (or should not) live a life that will harm the friendship. [/URL]

Are you saying that Jesus lived by a lower moral code than what the Apostle Paul expects from believers?

 

[Saint Steven]

But Jesus was criticized for a different reason. He was presenting Himself as The Promised Messiah, so the ruling political leaders were looking for any reason to find fault in Him, being that He did not fit their idea of what The Messiah should be. Like the verses you posted, they are dealing with God presenting The Kingdom of God both ways by John and Jesus, but the Jews rejected both ways because they rejected Jesus as The Messiah.

Jesus wasn't being criticized for merely associating with sinners. He admitted to "eating and drinking". Fellowship.
"But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.”

Matthew 11:18-19 NIV
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’
19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard,
a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.”

 

[David's Harp]

How much of the expected social behavior in our Christian fellowships are social expectations with no spiritual or biblical basis?

Hi Steven, what I would ask is how much social expectation comes from outside the church? And how is this influencing the social expectation within the church.

 

[d taylor]

This is not adding up for me. Please help me to understand. Thanks.

Your earlier post said this...

Are you saying that Jesus lived by a lower moral code than what the Apostle Paul expects from believers?

How can God live by a lower moral code.

 

[Saint Steven]

Hi Steven, what I would ask is how much social expectation comes from outside the church? And how is this influencing the social expectation within the church.

That's an interesting angle to explore this from. Thanks.

I suppose the conservative response would be to say that the world is influencing the church negatively.
And the liberal response would be to say the church is influencing the world in a negative way.

Which side would you come in on? And why? Thanks.

 

[d taylor]

Jesus wasn't being criticized for merely associating with sinners. He admitted to "eating and drinking". Fellowship.
"But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.”

Matthew 11:18-19 NIV
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’
19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard,
a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.”

Again this is connected to Jesus presenting Himself as The promised Messiah and in turn offering Israel The Kingdom of God. So explain how Jesus presenting Himself as The Messiah to the nation of Israel. What does that have to do with church people and their moral actions.

 

[d taylor]

Jesus wasn't being criticized for merely associating with sinners. He admitted to "eating and drinking". Fellowship.
"But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.”

Matthew 11:18-19 NIV
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’
19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard,
a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.”

You have quoted this part of a verse two times ("But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.”), do you understand what that quote is addressing.

 

[David's Harp]

That's an interesting angle to explore this from. Thanks.

I suppose the conservative response would be to say that the world is influencing the church negatively.
And the liberal response would be to say the church is influencing the world in a negative way.

Which side would you come in on? And why? Thanks.

You know, I had something drafted out - I was really thinking about it - and then I realised..none of this is bringing me closer to God!
I may decide to come back to this thread as God leads, but for now, I'm being lead away. God Bless Steven, and to all who come here.

 

[YahuahSaves]

At a Valentines Day church gathering at a local restaurant our new members were smoking and ordering alcoholic drinks.
That was a bit of culture shock for me, and for our Senior Pastor, who made a new rule to disallow alcohol at church functions.

This gave me pause.
Did we handle this correctly?
The new merger guests seemed to understand and comply, so as not to offend the merger fellowship, but... ???

Your thoughts?

My thought is, yes Jesus did hang out with sinners, (and all are sinners, even the Pharisees who accused Jesus of hanging out with what they believed were the 'scum' of society). But he didn't "hang out" with them to condone their behaviour, but to show them who he was (and who God was) and to change their hearts and minds.

That aside, my personal view isn't clear on where the bible stands on alcohol, as Jesus did partake in drinking wine on occasion. But it is clear we aren't to be "drunk". smoking, there is nothing biblical, but it's common sense that none of these things are from God or healthy for us in the long run. God gave the breath of life, we as humans tend to take that life for granted and do things that are potentially self-destructive.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Saint Steven
You wrote, "Jesus did partake in drinking wine on occasion."
How did you arrive at that conclusion?

There seems to be the built in idea that wine is bad, so Jesus only had it occasionally?
Which somehow makes his behavior acceptable?
He was admitted to "drinking and eating", as opposed to what John the Baptist was doing. .

______________________

It is clear in the gospels that Jesus partook of the customs of the day.

This excerpt explains it:

what does the Bible say? Specifically, regarding Jesus drinking wine, what do we see in the Gospels?

Jesus was around wine a great deal in his ministry, whether at weddings, meals, or the Passover celebration the night before his death. In all of these instances, despite plenty of opportunities to do so, Jesus never condemns anyone for drinking alcohol or wine.

For Jesus himself, we can look at two scriptures that indicate he also drank wine. First, in Matthew 26:27-29, he institutes the new covenant by sharing a cup of wine with the twelve apostles. He blessed the wine and instructed the men to drink from it. Then Jesus makes this interesting statement, “I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”

This fruit of the vine means wine. The implication is he drank before but wouldn’t drink again until the kingdom’s fulfillment. He doesn’t make this statement to have anything to do with alcohol, good or bad. It’s about celebration and instituting a New Covenant. Wine symbolizes blood and the wedding analogy Jesus spoke of at the Last Supper, as well.

Next, Jesus noted that his critics called him a glutton and a winebibber (another term for drunkard) because he came “eating and drinking” (Matthew 11:9, Luke 7:34). He was revealing the critics’ hearts since they attacked him whether he fasted or went around eating with people (sinners especially). They called him a drunk because they saw him drinking wine with sinners. However, since Jesus was tempted yet sinless (1 Peter 2:22), he drank wine but never took it so far that he got drunk

Taken from: Did Jesus Drink Wine? (And Should Christians?)

 

[YahuahSaves]

I don’t know the answer to that question, but it's easier to follow for me.

I always hated old English and as far as I could research, the NLT was as close a translation from Hebrew to English as there is, but of course, it's better to learn Hebrew. I like to do my research separately when I want to define certain scriptures I might be reading.
I learned a lot listening to podcasts on the bible project app also.