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Is there an objective morality?

  • Yes

  • No


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durangodawood

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If absolute proof is required, then no, we cannot say one person's perception of hunger is anything like another person's.

But if we're just looking for whats most reasonable to believe, then its fine to propose that people who speak about hunger using the same metaphors, who share almost identical physiology, who satisfy the hunger the same way..... are speaking about pretty much the same experience.
 
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Vap841

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Not quite. The word I have difficulty with is 'settings'. I do not think children are born with a built-in morality, as you appear to claim.
It’s easy to imagine many situations where a bunch of children would be morally disturbed at the same exact things, “They watched in horror as…” fill in the blank. If there are no moral norms for children then it wouldn’t make sense how we so generally speak of children being innocent, or how heartbreaking it is when something causes a child to loose their innocence.

‘Settings’ are so much simpler for other species than for us because we are so varied in cultural upbringings, and individual upbringings. Looking at us when we’re very young is very helpful. Dogs and honey badgers aren’t pulled into 100 different directions like humans are, other species wouldn’t even have a concept such as trying to rediscover their lost innocence, or moments of contemplation about harmful indoctrination that may have led them astray, etc.
If they did there would be no need for moral leadership for them - by parents or teachers.
Well humans are the most helpless and needy species with an extremely long infancy stage. But our dependency on excessive guidance doesn’t mean that we don’t have an innate moral code, it just means that we’re extremely vulnerable to having that moral code tweaked. It’s not all nature, or all nurture, but a combination of both.

To study a core of moral commonalities in people would just be more complicated than other species, but they are there. You would need to consider so many more factors. Raccoons don’t tend to come from homes with abusive alcoholic dads vs homes with Ward Cleaver dads, they don’t tend to get indoctrinated by the state, etc.
Of course there are norms of behaviour, but that leads us nowhere in this discussion.
A person’s morality can be seen in their behaviors.
 
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zippy2006

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It seems to me that the transition from villages to cities would alter some harmony rules while leaving others intact. As long as some of the rules ordering harmony are stable, the possibility of objective morality as manifest in cultures remains, no?

(It is striking, though, that these differences are on the margins rather than central tenets of morality. The Biblical Ten Commandments are not unique to Judeo-Christian traditions.)

Is that a sign of objective morality?
 
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Ken-1122

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Isn’t there supposed to be a lot more to God than the desire to not sin? Isn’t he also all knowing, all powerful, perfect and a bunch of other stuff? I ain’t talking about all of that other stuff, just the desire to not sin. Why couldn’t he make mankind without the desire to sin?
What good is having a choice if you get punished for making the wrong choice? In my country they call that “forced behavior”.
 
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Kylie

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God’s moral standard is fact, it is reality because it does not differ from one person...

Neither does mine. I don't think that something is moral for one person, yet immoral for the next person.

...to the next nor is it subject to opinion.

Except it literally is God's opinion.
 
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Ken-1122

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By what standard do you proclaim their behavior immoral?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Neither does mine. I don't think that something is moral for one person, yet immoral for the next person.



Except it literally is God's opinion.

I guess we’ll see how relevant His opinion is on judgement day. Then His “opinion” becomes a reality for all men.
 
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Kylie

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I guess we’ll see how relevant His opinion is on judgement day. Then His “opinion” becomes a reality for all men.

That's assuming your view of religion is correct.

And even if it is, God's opinion will still be subjective.
 
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Mark Quayle

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You say God has standards which he goes by? Do you think God does what is good, because that is the standard? Does he do good because it is an objectively good thing for him to do?
 
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Larniavc

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That was not the point I was making. It’s still there if you want to re read my post.
 
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Larniavc

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I’ve just awoken. Can you simplify that point you are trying to make?
 
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stevevw

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I can stand on a street corner and proclaim myself to be the moral law giver, and all who disobey my moral laws will suffer the consequences after they die. My words will have as much merit as your words proclaiming your God saying this.
What I am talking about is not my word or your words but a truth independent of all humans.
 
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stevevw

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Except it literally is God's opinion.
Thats where your going wrong in making God and morality a human understanding. God cannot have an opinion on morality as though morality is seperate to him. That would make him mortal. God is morality. God is love, kindness, justice, honesty ect. God is the Giver of moral laws to humans (the subject). But he doesnt give morality to us. It is because he is moral he illuminates morality to us.
 
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com7fy8

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Does he do good because it is an objectively good thing for him to do?
Because He is good and good is all He is capable of doing.

"No one is good but One, that is, God," Jesus says, in Matthew 19:17, Mark 10:18, and in Luke 18:19.

And "there is no variation or shadow of turning" in Him (James 1:17); so He can not change from being good and doing good.
 
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Kylie

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Being MORTAL and being MORAL are two completely different things.

Also, your claim that God is moral makes no sense. It seems you want to suggest that God is morally GOOD, but by what criteria do you determine that?
 
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com7fy8

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It is because he is moral he illuminates morality to us.
but by what criteria do you determine that?
I don't think morality is a main focus of God. But He can use it to help bring about His ultimate purpose.

He Himself is capable of much greater good, than what humans are capable of doing even if we act perfectly morally.

There are cases in the Bible, where God uses what is evil to bring about much greater good than humans were doing while trying to be moral.
 
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Kyrani

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I said WITHOUT the desire to sin. Again; why couldn’t God make us without the desire to sin?
God could make us without the desire to sin, but then we would be mere puppets. And to be correct it is not so much a desire to sin but the desire to do some sort of action that we want to do. If we don't take all aspects into account, if we act mindlessly or hurriedly or even selfishly to some extent, without giving enough thought to the consequences of our actions, then we may "get it wrong", which is really what sin in about.
Transgression on the other hand is a desire to do wrong, to do even very hateful, harmful acts willfully, but to do that one has to have destroyed their conscience and thus have no empathy, no love.
 
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Kyrani

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By what standard do you proclaim their behavior immoral?
The standard we have (ie., those who are humane) is love. This is our spiritual connectivity that gives us the ability to feel for others, to be happy in their good times and to be unhappy and wanting to help them in their bad times.
 
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