Is there an Universal Church or just local churches?

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

"Rival church?" I think we just got to the core of the issue, people upset that they feel someone else is intruding on their turf. What did Jesus say about that? (hint, read my previous response)

I'm not talking about turf, a place or anything like that. I'm talking about a community. This man who Jesus defended, would he be justified in setting up a rival community to that of the Apostles? Someone totally free of the Apostles authority?

 

[kepha31]

I'm not talking about turf, a place or anything like that. I'm talking about a community. This man who Jesus defended, would he be justified in setting up a rival community to that of the Apostles? Someone totally free of the Apostles authority?

That's impossible. The community Jesus set up was modeled after the Davidic Kingdom: hierarchical, monarchical, infallible, indefectable, infallible and supernatural....or Jesus broke all His promises.

18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

"go therefore" means the Apostles had His authority.
"and teaching them" does not mean a learning church, but a teaching church.
"to obey everything that I have commanded you" which includes His command to eat His Flesh and Drink His Blood.

"And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” does not mean "I will take a vacation until 1517.

 

[Phil 1:21]

I'm not talking about turf, a place or anything like that. I'm talking about a community. This man who Jesus defended, would he be justified in setting up a rival community to that of the Apostles? Someone totally free of the Apostles authority?

Asked and answered with the Word of God.

 

[Phil 1:21]

"and teaching them" does not mean a learning church, but a teaching church.

This is why we see so many non-denominational churches popping up and thriving all over the country. A lot of folks are looking for churches that are focused on preaching and teaching the Good Word, just like Jesus and His disciples did.

Teaching is essential in the Church but it is not the focus of any of the most ancient liturgies, that is a protestant innovation which focused on the word to the exclusion or near dismissal of the Eucharist.

I love it when you all make my point for me. Thanks.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Asked and answered with the Word of God.

You have not abdicated your responsibility to interpret what you quote. Yes, Jesus defended that man who preach during his ministry apart from the Apostles. Yet Jesus also established in his Apostles the quality of leadership over the fledgling Christian community which they obviously exercised.

If you want to use this verse to justify people in of themselves, establishing themselves as preachers and authorities, then the same would apply to the Apostles. People were free to establish churches apart from the Apostolic deposit then in the first century, apart from the communion of the apostles as they are now.

This view I think does violence to the unity Christ envisioned.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I love it when you all make my point for me. Thanks.

Concession to a point does not mean concession to the argument. You are wrong to make teaching the be all and end all of Christianity. That makes Christianity an intellectual society rather than a living and visible communion.

 

[Phil 1:21]

You have not abdicated your responsibility to interpret what you quote.

I’ve read enough of your posts on here to safely say you don’t need Mark 9:38-41 interpreted for you.

Concession to a point does not mean concession to the argument.

I didn't make an argument; I made a point. Thanks again.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I’ve read enough of your posts on here to safely say you don’t need Mark 9:38-41 interpreted for you.

Then you convince neither me nor anyone else. If you want to ignore the Apostles authority and the implications that has for church leadership then and now and simply want to quote the text as if it establishes your point then we are done talking. You have no interest in actually dealing with what I say or what the great majority of Christendom has to say concerning this subject.

I didn't make an argument; I made a point. Thanks again.

You are making the argument that visible communion between churches is unecessary. You then repeat my concession that the liturgy, the historic liturgy did not have at it's heart teaching as a focus (though that is an element always present given that there is always a homily in every service). You then proceed to say that this somehow means I've proved you right? What kind of argumentation is that?

 

[Phil 1:21]

You have no interest in actually dealing with what I say or what the great majority of Christendom has to say concerning this subject.

Word of God? Word of man? Word of God? Word of man? God? Man? God? Man?

I’m going with God.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Word of God? Word of man? Word of God? Word of man? God? Man? God? Man?

I’m going with God.

Thus dialogue has broken now and reconciliation remains further and further away. Your supposed loyalty to the word of God is in reality loyalty to your own idea of the word of God. God's spirit doesn't reside in you alone, but has been present with the Church since the first and in every century since.

Apply what you have said to the Apostles. Tell the Apostles they had no authority over the Church despite the fact Christ had given them the authority to bind and loose. It quickly falls apart and you can't seem to realise it.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Thus dialogue has broken now and reconciliation remains further and further away. Your supposed loyalty to the word of God is in reality loyalty to your own idea of the word of God. God's spirit doesn't reside in you alone, but has been present with the Church since the first and in every century since.

Apply what you have said to the Apostles. Tell the Apostles they had no authority over the Church despite the fact Christ had given them the authority to bind and loose. It quickly falls apart and you can't seem to realise it.

If believing that makes you feel better, God bless.