Is there an objective standard by which to distinguish sound doctrine from false?

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,314
10,596
Georgia
✟909,877.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I like this exploring the Trinity of God.The Trinity is something not easily understood.
https://www.keepbelieving.com/sermo...hree-Persons-A-Doctrine-We-Barely-Understand/

Like the Song says "Holy Holy Holy" ending with "God in Three Persons - blessed Trinity".

How it is that we have "ONE God" Deut 6:5 in "three persons" Matthew 28:19 is a mystery. But at the same time - it does not surprise us a bit that infinite God does not squeeze down into a finite test tube for man to then fully comprehend.
 
Upvote 0

justbyfaith

justified sinner
May 19, 2017
3,461
572
51
Southern California
✟3,094.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvary Chapel
Marital Status
Married
My first yard stick for separating “good doctrine” from the rest is to look at the fruit it bears..

A good tree bears good fruit. A bad tree bears bad fruit. You can not collect pears from a thistle....

And so when you see people enthralled by a certain doctrine and they all of a sudden start condemning all of their faithful brothers, hating anyone who believes something slightly different, or making powerful straw man arguments to condemn brothers/sisters as blasphemers and heretics and spread hate within the body - that’s bad fruit. I know what I need to know about the doctrine...

Second important point..... it is critical to understand that doctrinal statements are generally created by Man as a way to summarize or crystallized some belief or statement of church practice. As such they are “Leavened”....

“Leavening” scripture aims to make points more palatable and easier to digest by removing substance. It corrupts by puffing up... but it makes things far more palatable....

That’s fine once you understand that 99.999% of the time - the people writing the doctrinal statements knew this. They wanted to have a simple, straightforward, easy to remember working rule to apply because it makes things easier.... But they were smart enough to also know that these statements were simply that: Working statements to clarify things... Not a replacement for the actual scripture - which can be much more complicated and nuanced.

And then folks came in who worship the doctrine and not our Risen Lord... and the shouting started....
Sometimes those who identify heresy identify it accurately because they are measuring it against their own understanding of sound doctrine. Therefore identifying a doctrine as heresy is not necessarily "bad fruit".
 
Upvote 0

Bruce Woodford

Active Member
Aug 16, 2018
60
3
71
Norwich
✟16,432.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
By definition of heresy yes you are a heretic for stating there is no Trinity.
Brocke, All I ask is, "What is your definition of "heresy"? Is it a scriptural one? Or is defined as being different from a creed of men?
 
Upvote 0

Bruce Woodford

Active Member
Aug 16, 2018
60
3
71
Norwich
✟16,432.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Rom 4:4,5 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but believes God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Rom 4:6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works

You going to add words to that? Or are you going to take them away?
I am simply going to take all of scripture which includes James chapter 2 which does not contradict Romans 4!
 
Upvote 0

Bruce Woodford

Active Member
Aug 16, 2018
60
3
71
Norwich
✟16,432.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes if you reject the substance of the Trinitarian formulations then you are a heretic.
You mean "trinity formulations that are not found in scripture" I assume! Now if I embrace all that scripture says about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit but reject "trinity formulations not found in scripture, that makes me a heretic? Since when does someone have to embrace an unbiblical teaching to avoid a charge of heresy???
 
Upvote 0

Bruce Woodford

Active Member
Aug 16, 2018
60
3
71
Norwich
✟16,432.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Sure. Here are some entries from Greek dictionaries:

3885 οἶνος (oinos), ου (ou), ὁ (ho): n.masc.; ≡ DBLHebr 3516; Str 3631; TDNT 5.162—1. LN 6.197 wine, naturally fermented juice of grapes (Jn 2:3; Eph 5:18; 1Ti 3:8; Tit 2:3); 2. LN 6.198 οἶνος νέος (oinos neos), new wine, newly pressed juice of grape, possibly just beginning the fermentation process (Mt 9:17; Mk 2:22; Lk 5:37, 38+); 3. LN 6.204 myrrhed wine (Mk 15:23+) see 5046

Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament) (electronic ed.). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

In the NT οἶνος is mainly used in the literal sense of “wine,” and never in a cultic relation. A characteristic of the Baptist is that he abstains from wine, Lk. 1:15; cf. 7:33 (Mt. 11:18). As those dedicated to God in the OT refrained from wine or intoxicating drinks (Nu. 6:3; cf. Ju. 13:4, 7), so John, fully consecrated to God, must be controlled solely by the fulness of the Holy Spirit.

Seesemann, H. (1964–). οἶνος. G. Kittel, G. W. Bromiley, & G. Friedrich (Eds.), Theological dictionary of the New Testament (electronic ed., Vol. 5, p. 163). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.

6.197 οἶνος, ου m: a fermented beverage made from the juice of grapes—‘wine.’ μὴ μεθύσκεσθε οἴνῳ ‘do not get drunk with wine’ Eph 5:18.

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 1, p. 76). New York: United Bible Societies.
Yes, It includes "intoxicating drinks"!
 
Upvote 0

Bruce Woodford

Active Member
Aug 16, 2018
60
3
71
Norwich
✟16,432.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I agree that Scripture is the standard. But we must still deduce things from Scripture in order to apply it to every area of life. Proper deductions from Scripture do not add anything to Scripture and they are necessary to apply Scripture to life.
Can you suggest some examples that are "necessary"?
 
Upvote 0

Bruce Woodford

Active Member
Aug 16, 2018
60
3
71
Norwich
✟16,432.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I think the WCF is correct.

Acts 17:11 "the studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul -- were SO"

They did not have a NT. And they were not even Christian. And Paul's teaching included a lot of facts not already in the OT. And it was all confirmed as "Biblical" via the "sola scriptura test" that the WCF affirms.

Take a close look at this -

==================================================

the Bible so strongly affirms "sola scriptura"

Acts 17:11 is not unbiblical. And it came wayyy before the reformation.
Mark 7:6-13 is not "unbiblical" and it came wayyy before the reformation
Isaiah 8:20 is not unbiblical and it came wayyy before the reformation
"20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no light."

Look closely

Acts 17:11 "They searched THE SCRIPTUREs daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the APOSTLE Paul - WERE SO"

How is that NOT - "Sola Scriptura"???

Mark 7
6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”


1. How is that NOT "sola scriptura" testing tradition.
2. How is that NOT calling the Word of God = Commandment of God = Moses said.
3. How is that NOT sola-scriptura hammering the tradition of the accepted magesterium of the nation-church that GOD started at Sinai - in the days of Christ

Christ shows that "making stuff up" as they were doing - was condemned when it was shown to conflict with Bible teaching.

But that did not condemn Paul's teaching in Acts 17:11 because his teaching was not in conflict with the Bible.



Bruce - I understand your point. But my question is this - is it really true that infant baptism is not refuted using the WCF affirmation of scripture plus tradition that is vetted-by approved-by tested-by scripture?

Their statement is that what is expressly taught by scripture and reasonably deduced from scripture is legit.

Could it be "deduced" that the "Carpenter's son was God"? No Old Testament text says that the Messiah would be a carpenter or the son of a carpenter.

God called Israel out of Egypt - and says "I called my son out of Egypt" but - there is no record at all of an angel speaking to the child Jesus and calling him out of Egypt... or of God' speaking that to Jesus -- as a child ...calling him out of Egypt.

Yet God did tell Moses to take Israel out of Egypt.

Yet NT authors claim that Christ going into Egypt was in fulfillment of the text where God says He called His Son out of Egypt. How could the NT saints ever accept the NT authors using the rule you propose?

Jesus said this in Matthew 23
Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.

He did not condemn them flat out simply because they said something. Rather as we see in Mark 7 - He condemned them when he could prove that what they were saying contradicted scripture.

Mark 7 is a great example - because the Jews were not saying "do not honor your parents" or "break the 5th commandment" -- yet what they were teaching amounted to the same thing - and that was enough to condemn them.

The Bible says to "believe" and be baptized Mark 16:15. To repent and be baptized Acts 2. But man-made-tradition says it does not matter if you hear, repent, believe... just as long as someone with the "powers" to mark your soul baptizes you even as an infant, then you would be "changed" or accepted by God.



I think that their rule "expressly in scripture or reasonably deduced from scripture" rules out things like purgatory. The Bible says Christ paid for the full debt of our sin.

IF I come along and say "oh not so - what really happens is that my group has a sort of spiritual bank of merit/suffering/payment. And we write checks against that bank whenever you ask for an indulgence so that your loved one can get out of something we call purgatory via the check we have written". A great many reasonable people could be expected to say of the church-of-Bob that its doctrine is a far cry from what can be said to be a "good and necessary consequence that may be deduced from the scriptures."
I think you've answered your own question well.
 
Upvote 0

Bruce Woodford

Active Member
Aug 16, 2018
60
3
71
Norwich
✟16,432.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Jesus mentions all three, you are to be baptized into all three of the Godhead.

Matthew 28:18-20 New King James Version (NKJV)
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
I entirely agree with what you have said! But I do not embrace a "trinity of three persons in the Godhead" because scripture never once refers to the Father or the Holy Spirit as "persons"!
 
Upvote 0

Bruce Woodford

Active Member
Aug 16, 2018
60
3
71
Norwich
✟16,432.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Not in my mind.
Anyone who teaches against the 3 persons in one is most certainly a heretic.
Can you show me "three persons" in scripture? If you do I will embrace it. So far I only see one. The Lord Jesus is called a person and was a man and will always be a man. Not so with the Father and Holy Spirit.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bruce Woodford

Active Member
Aug 16, 2018
60
3
71
Norwich
✟16,432.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/Trinitarian Heresies.html
Trinitarian Heresies



Modalism (i.e. Sabellianism, Noetianism and Patripassianism)
...taught that the three persons of the Trinity as different “modes” of the Godhead. Adherants believed that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not distinct personalities, but different modes of God's self-revelation. A typical modalist approach is to regard God as the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and the Spirit in sanctification. In other words, God exists as Father, Son and Spirit in different eras, but never as triune. Stemming from Modalism, Patripassianism believed that the Father suffered as the Son.



Tritheism
...Tritheism confessses the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as three independent divine beings; three separate gods who share the 'same substance'. This is a common mistake because of misunderstanding of the use of the term 'persons' in defining the Trinity.

Arianism
...taught that the preexistent Christ was the first and greatest of God’s creatures but denied his fully divine status. The Arian controversy was of major importance in the development of Christology during the fourth century and was addressed definitely in the Nicene Creed.

Docetism
...taught that Jesus Christ as a purely divine being who only had the “appearance” of being human. Regarding his suffering, some versions taught that Jesus’ divinity abandoned or left him upon the cross while other claimed that he only appeared to suffer (much like he only appeared to be human).

Ebionitism
...taught that while Jesus was endowed with particular charismatic gifts which distinguished him from other humans but nonetheless regarded Him as a purely human figure.

Macedonianism
...that that the Holy Spirit is a created being.

Adoptionism
...taught that Jesus was born totally human and only later was “adopted” – either at his baptism or at his resurrection – by God in a special (i.e. divine) way.

Partialism
...taught that Father, Son and Holy Spirit together are components of the one God. This led them to believe that each of the persons of the Trinity is only part God, only becoming fully God when they come together.
All of these are heresies for none can be stated in words of scripture just as the Trinity doctrine itself cannot be stated in words of scripture.
 
Upvote 0

Bruce Woodford

Active Member
Aug 16, 2018
60
3
71
Norwich
✟16,432.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
My main point with this thread is that if we do not have or recognize an objective standard by which to clearly distinguish between sound doctrine and false doctrine, we cannot know whether anything we believe is sound doctrine!!! Every theological camp on the planet has deduced "from scripture" by what they call "good and necessary consequence" all sorts of weird doctrines which cannot be found in words of scripture. If there is no objective standard then we CANNOT distinguish any of those "weird ideas" from sound doctrine!
However, since God has inspired scripture, and he knows human language better than anyone, we cannot improve on what He has said in his word! No man can "improve upon" what God has said or "say it more clearly"! Thus I have observed that when a teaching is stated in the pure words of the Lord (Ps.12:6) apart from any additional words (Prov.30:5,6) and in words which the Holy Spirit teaches apart from any words which man's wisdom teaches (I Cor.2:13) we can know that such is sound doctrine. I have observed as well that every false doctrine cannot be stated in pure words of the Lord, apart from additional words, nor can any false doctrine be stated in words which the Holy Spirirt teaches apart from words which man's wisdom teaches.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Tree of Life

Hide The Pain
Feb 15, 2013
8,824
6,250
✟48,147.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
My main point with this thread is that if we do not have or recognize an objective standard by which to clearly distinguish between sound doctrine and false doctrine, we cannot know whether anything we believe is sound doctrine!!! Every theological camp on the planet has deduced "from scripture" by what they call "good and necessary consequence" all sorts of weird doctrines which cannot be found in words of scripture. If there is no objective standard then we CANNOT distinguish any of those "weird ideas" from sound doctrine!
However, since God has inspired scripture, and he knows human language better than anyone, we cannot improve on what He has said in his word! No man can "improve upon" what God has said or "say it more clearly"! Thus I have observed that when a teaching is stated in the pure words of the Lord (Ps.12:6) apart from any additional words (Prov.30:5,6) and in words which the Holy Spirit teaches apart from any words which man's wisdom teaches (I Cor.2:13) we can know that such is sound doctrine. I have observed as well that every false doctrine cannot be stated in pure words of the Lord, apart from additional words, nor can any false doctrine be stated in words which the Holy Spirirt teaches apart from words which man's wisdom teaches.

If this is the case then why aren't you just quoting Scripture here? You seem to be putting a lot of effort into using your own words to apply Scriptural principles to this situation.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,314
10,596
Georgia
✟909,877.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I entirely agree with what you have said! But I do not embrace a "trinity of three persons in the Godhead" because scripture never once refers to the Father or the Holy Spirit as "persons"!

It refers to each of them as "He" - John 16 for the Holy Spirit "HE will lead you into all truth".
John 3:16 "HIS" -- "God so loved the World that HE gave HIS only begotten son".

We call that "using personal pronouns" to refer to the "person".

Jesus said "The Father HIMSELF loves you"
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,314
10,596
Georgia
✟909,877.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
My main point with this thread is that if we do not have or recognize an objective standard by which to clearly distinguish between sound doctrine and false doctrine, we cannot know whether anything we believe is sound doctrine!!!

A point with which I fully agree.

Every theological camp on the planet has deduced "from scripture" by what they call "good and necessary consequence" all sorts of weird doctrines

Not entirely true. Some of them freely admit they are making stuff up and that you cannot get their made-up stuff from the Bible. Thus for some of them when you propose "Sola scriptura testing" they immediately oppose the suggestion.
 
Upvote 0

Bruce Woodford

Active Member
Aug 16, 2018
60
3
71
Norwich
✟16,432.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes. The word oinos does not cover things like beer and whiskey unless you make a logical deduction.
It refers to each of them as "He" - John 16 for the Holy Spirit "HE will lead you into all truth".
John 3:16 "HIS" -- "God so loved the World that HE gave HIS only begotten son".

We call that "using personal pronouns" to refer to the "person".

Jesus said "The Father HIMSELF loves you"
Yes, the grammatical term "personal pronouns" is used of "he", she", "him" himself" etc etc but they are used of animals, angels, demons, Satan too. Do you deduce from that that animals, angels, demons and Satan are persons too? Again, it is bringing God down and forming him in our image, NOT acknowledging that we (creatures) were made in His image (spirits).
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bruce Woodford

Active Member
Aug 16, 2018
60
3
71
Norwich
✟16,432.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If this is the case then why aren't you just quoting Scripture here? You seem to be putting a lot of effort into using your own words to apply Scriptural principles to this situation.
I have no problem with sitting down and DISCUSSING Biblical doctrines in any words we choose. We do it all the time. But there is a huge difference between DISCUSSING a doctrine in our words and being able to STATE a doctrine in the words of scripture. For example, you and I could sit down and discuss the Biblical doctrines of Immanuel's virgin birth, or the baptism of disciples/believers and use any words we chose in such a discussion and we would be discussing sound Biblical doctrines. (Both doctrines are clearly stated in pure words of the Lord plus or minus nothing.) But the moment we begin to discuss the doctrine of infant baptism, or the perpetual virginity of Mary, or the pre-tribulation rapture of the saints, we begin to discuss doctrines which simply cannot be STATED in words of scripture. Do you see what I mean?
 
Upvote 0