Is there an objective standard by which to distinguish sound doctrine from false?

Bruce Woodford

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If you reject the Trinity then you are not allowed to promote these views in the General Theology forum because they are heretical.
I am simply saying that the "trinity doctrine" is not found in the Bible and that the Bible never calls the Father or the Spirit "persons". I embrace everything the Bible teaches about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, not what men have deduced about them. Does that make me a heretic?
 
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Bruce Woodford

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Not everyone agrees with you. That's why there are multiple denominations. Do you think that your view should be imposed on everyone else?
I am not suggesting imposing anything on anyone! All I'm advocating is that there is only one objective standard by which to distinguish sound doctrine from false doctrine, That standard is simply what does scripture say (plus or minus nothing)! If you don't have such a standard, you have no way of knowing whether ANY DOCTRINE you embrace is sound or false!
 
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Bruce Woodford

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Wrong. The word οἶνος refers specifically to fermented grape juice. There are no grapes in whiskey. So if you want to say that Paul's words in Ephesians 5:18 also apply to whiskey then you have to make a logical deduction.
Can you show your authority for your claim above? All alcoholic beverages are fermented.
 
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brocke

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BTW, do you know of any Trinitarian who does not believe in three persons in the Godhead? That is where the doctrine goes beyond and contrary to what scripture does teach about the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit! Do you think I am a heretic for embracing all that scripture states about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and rejecting what men have added on the subject???

By definition of heresy yes you are a heretic for stating there is no Trinity.
 
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brocke

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Brocke, All I'm saying is that if you embrace the WCF statement re the Holy Scriptures, you have no standard left by which to prove any doctrine is false doctrine! All that the proponents of any false teaching need to do is claim that their doctrine has been deduced from scripture by good and necessary consequence (a very subjective matter!) and how can you argue with that???

I would submit that you have proposed a solution from a process of deduction. You have taken three verses of the Bible from three different places. They are not connected that is. From that you deduce you have made an objective rule or process for interpretation of scripture as solo scripture. But the rule for claiming is true doctrine is yourself. That is what leads towards dangerous teaching.
 
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bcbsr

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No doubt about it, we need to UNDERSTAND scripture. BUT what I am talking about is that if a doctrine cannot be STATED in words of scripture, it simply is not sound teaching or doctrine! For example the doctrine of justification by faith is clearly stated in words of scripture and is thus a sound doctrine. But add just one word and teach "Justification by faith ALONE" and you have just introduced a heresy! See James 2:24. You have also denied many other truths of scripture relative to justification: Yes, we are justified by faith, but faith in whom? Faith must have an object. Thus scripture also states that we are justified by Christ. But Christ could not have justified us without dying and shedding his blood. Thus scripture also tells us we are justified by his blood. Scripture also teaches that we are justified by His grace! Since faith without works is dead, scripture also teaches that we are justified by works, but not by the works of the law! So do you see how just one additional word can make a sound doctrine into a false doctrine that denies many sound teachings of scripture? Let us test every doctrine by asking "is it stated in pure words of the Lord? (Ps.12:6) "Is it stated in pure words of the Lord apart from any additional words?" (Prov.30:5,6) and "Is it stated in words which the Holy Spirit teaches apart from any words which man's wisdom teaches? (I Cor.2:13)
Rom 4:4,5 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but believes God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Rom 4:6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works

You going to add words to that? Or are you going to take them away?
 
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Tree of Life

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I am simply saying that the "trinity doctrine" is not found in the Bible and that the Bible never calls the Father or the Spirit "persons". I embrace everything the Bible teaches about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, not what men have deduced about them. Does that make me a heretic?

Yes if you reject the substance of the Trinitarian formulations then you are a heretic.
 
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Tree of Life

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Can you show your authority for your claim above? All alcoholic beverages are fermented.

Sure. Here are some entries from Greek dictionaries:

3885 οἶνος (oinos), ου (ou), ὁ (ho): n.masc.; ≡ DBLHebr 3516; Str 3631; TDNT 5.162—1. LN 6.197 wine, naturally fermented juice of grapes (Jn 2:3; Eph 5:18; 1Ti 3:8; Tit 2:3); 2. LN 6.198 οἶνος νέος (oinos neos), new wine, newly pressed juice of grape, possibly just beginning the fermentation process (Mt 9:17; Mk 2:22; Lk 5:37, 38+); 3. LN 6.204 myrrhed wine (Mk 15:23+) see 5046

Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament) (electronic ed.). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

In the NT οἶνος is mainly used in the literal sense of “wine,” and never in a cultic relation. A characteristic of the Baptist is that he abstains from wine, Lk. 1:15; cf. 7:33 (Mt. 11:18). As those dedicated to God in the OT refrained from wine or intoxicating drinks (Nu. 6:3; cf. Ju. 13:4, 7), so John, fully consecrated to God, must be controlled solely by the fulness of the Holy Spirit.

Seesemann, H. (1964–). οἶνος. G. Kittel, G. W. Bromiley, & G. Friedrich (Eds.), Theological dictionary of the New Testament (electronic ed., Vol. 5, p. 163). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.

6.197 οἶνος, ου m: a fermented beverage made from the juice of grapes—‘wine.’ μὴ μεθύσκεσθε οἴνῳ ‘do not get drunk with wine’ Eph 5:18.

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 1, p. 76). New York: United Bible Societies.
 
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Tree of Life

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I am not suggesting imposing anything on anyone! All I'm advocating is that there is only one objective standard by which to distinguish sound doctrine from false doctrine, That standard is simply what does scripture say (plus or minus nothing)! If you don't have such a standard, you have no way of knowing whether ANY DOCTRINE you embrace is sound or false!

I agree that Scripture is the standard. But we must still deduce things from Scripture in order to apply it to every area of life. Proper deductions from Scripture do not add anything to Scripture and they are necessary to apply Scripture to life.
 
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Chinchilla

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I am simply saying that the "trinity doctrine" is not found in the Bible and that the Bible never calls the Father or the Spirit "persons". I embrace everything the Bible teaches about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, not what men have deduced about them. Does that make me a heretic?

The term trinity is not used but the term Godhead is .
Likewise the term Bible is not used but Scriptures , everybody call it The Bible anyways ( bible means book )


Romans 1:20-23 King James Version (KJV)
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Colossians2:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
 
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BobRyan

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The Westminster Confession Section VI on the Holy Scriptures seems to recognize two kinds of doctrines: (1) Those which are expressly set forth in scripture and (2) Those which by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from the scriptures. Does not the latter actually undermine and totally destroy the authority of scripture as our only and final authority? If one theological camp can deduce doctrines by good and necessary consequence, what is to prevent any other camp from doing the very same thing? If both can claim that their "deduced doctrines" were arrived at by "GNC", have we not then lost any hope of an objective standard by which to distinguish sound doctrines from false ones?

I think the WCF is correct.

Acts 17:11 "the studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul -- were SO"

They did not have a NT. And they were not even Christian. And Paul's teaching included a lot of facts not already in the OT. And it was all confirmed as "Biblical" via the "sola scriptura test" that the WCF affirms.

Take a close look at this -

==================================================

the Bible so strongly affirms "sola scriptura"

Acts 17:11 is not unbiblical. And it came wayyy before the reformation.
Mark 7:6-13 is not "unbiblical" and it came wayyy before the reformation
Isaiah 8:20 is not unbiblical and it came wayyy before the reformation
"20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no light."

Look closely

Acts 17:11 "They searched THE SCRIPTUREs daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the APOSTLE Paul - WERE SO"

How is that NOT - "Sola Scriptura"???

Mark 7
6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”


1. How is that NOT "sola scriptura" testing tradition.
2. How is that NOT calling the Word of God = Commandment of God = Moses said.
3. How is that NOT sola-scriptura hammering the tradition of the accepted magesterium of the nation-church that GOD started at Sinai - in the days of Christ

Christ shows that "making stuff up" as they were doing - was condemned when it was shown to conflict with Bible teaching.

But that did not condemn Paul's teaching in Acts 17:11 because his teaching was not in conflict with the Bible.

Thanks for you post Bob! What I'm saying is that the WCF is NOT standing for "sola scriptura"! It is standing for what scripture expressly says PLUS what men can deduce from scripture by good and necessary consequence! The framers of the WCF had already embraced many doctrines and practices foreign to the scriptures which they knew were not expressly stated in words of scripture! They were not about to acknowledge that many covenants they believed in were foreign to the Bible, that their practice of infant baptism was foreign to the Bible etc!

Bruce - I understand your point. But my question is this - is it really true that infant baptism is not refuted using the WCF affirmation of scripture plus tradition that is vetted-by approved-by tested-by scripture?

Their statement is that what is expressly taught by scripture and reasonably deduced from scripture is legit.

Could it be "deduced" that the "Carpenter's son was God"? No Old Testament text says that the Messiah would be a carpenter or the son of a carpenter.

God called Israel out of Egypt - and says "I called my son out of Egypt" but - there is no record at all of an angel speaking to the child Jesus and calling him out of Egypt... or of God' speaking that to Jesus -- as a child ...calling him out of Egypt.

Yet God did tell Moses to take Israel out of Egypt.

Yet NT authors claim that Christ going into Egypt was in fulfillment of the text where God says He called His Son out of Egypt. How could the NT saints ever accept the NT authors using the rule you propose?

Jesus said this in Matthew 23
Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.

He did not condemn them flat out simply because they said something. Rather as we see in Mark 7 - He condemned them when he could prove that what they were saying contradicted scripture.

Mark 7 is a great example - because the Jews were not saying "do not honor your parents" or "break the 5th commandment" -- yet what they were teaching amounted to the same thing - and that was enough to condemn them.

The Bible says to "believe" and be baptized Mark 16:15. To repent and be baptized Acts 2. But man-made-tradition says it does not matter if you hear, repent, believe... just as long as someone with the "powers" to mark your soul baptizes you even as an infant, then you would be "changed" or accepted by God.

Now they had no biblical basis for proving that "purgatory" or "the perpetual virginity of Mary" were not sound doctrines!

I think that their rule "expressly in scripture or reasonably deduced from scripture" rules out things like purgatory. The Bible says Christ paid for the full debt of our sin.

IF I come along and say "oh not so - what really happens is that my group has a sort of spiritual bank of merit/suffering/payment. And we write checks against that bank whenever you ask for an indulgence so that your loved one can get out of something we call purgatory via the check we have written". A great many reasonable people could be expected to say of the church-of-Bob that its doctrine is a far cry from what can be said to be a "good and necessary consequence that may be deduced from the scriptures."
 
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justbyfaith

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In answer to the title question: Ask Jesus into your heart (John 1:12, Revelation 3:20, Colossians 1:27); and He will be an unction and an anointing that will be the objective standard by which you can discern between true and false doctrine (1 John 2:20, 1 John 2:27).

You need to ask God to fill you with the Spirit of truth (Luke 11:13, 1 John 5:6, John 15:26).
 
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JohnC2

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My first yard stick for separating “good doctrine” from the rest is to look at the fruit it bears..

A good tree bears good fruit. A bad tree bears bad fruit. You can not collect pears from a thistle....

And so when you see people enthralled by a certain doctrine and they all of a sudden start condemning all of their faithful brothers, hating anyone who believes something slightly different, or making powerful straw man arguments to condemn brothers/sisters as blasphemers and heretics and spread hate within the body - that’s bad fruit. I know what I need to know about the doctrine...

Second important point..... it is critical to understand that doctrinal statements are generally created by Man as a way to summarize or crystallized some belief or statement of church practice. As such they are “Leavened”....

“Leavening” scripture aims to make points more palatable and easier to digest by removing substance. It corrupts by puffing up... but it makes things far more palatable....

That’s fine once you understand that 99.999% of the time - the people writing the doctrinal statements knew this. They wanted to have a simple, straightforward, easy to remember working rule to apply because it makes things easier.... But they were smart enough to also know that these statements were simply that: Working statements to clarify things... Not a replacement for the actual scripture - which can be much more complicated and nuanced.

And then folks came in who worship the doctrine and not our Risen Lord... and the shouting started....
 
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sdowney717

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Yes if you reject the substance of the Trinitarian formulations then you are a heretic.
Yes a heretic.
Not so funny but the heretic hunter is also a heretic.
That word, Judge not lest you be judged comes to mind.
If we judge, we need to be certain of it as it will come back on us our own judgement against another if we are false and or hypocrites.

Matthew 7 New King James Version (NKJV)
Do Not Judge
7 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.
 
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sdowney717

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I am simply saying that the "trinity doctrine" is not found in the Bible and that the Bible never calls the Father or the Spirit "persons". I embrace everything the Bible teaches about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, not what men have deduced about them. Does that make me a heretic?
Jesus mentions all three, you are to be baptized into all three of the Godhead.

Matthew 28:18-20 New King James Version (NKJV)
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
 
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Tree of Life

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Yes a heretic.
Not so funny but the heretic hunter is also a heretic.
That word, Judge not lest you be judged comes to mind.
If we judge, we need to be certain of it as it will come back on us our own judgement against another if we are false and or hypocrites.

Matthew 7 New King James Version (NKJV)
Do Not Judge
7 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

Am I a heretic because I say non-Trinitarians are heretics?
 
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sdowney717

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https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/Trinitarian Heresies.html
Trinitarian Heresies



Modalism (i.e. Sabellianism, Noetianism and Patripassianism)
...taught that the three persons of the Trinity as different “modes” of the Godhead. Adherants believed that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not distinct personalities, but different modes of God's self-revelation. A typical modalist approach is to regard God as the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and the Spirit in sanctification. In other words, God exists as Father, Son and Spirit in different eras, but never as triune. Stemming from Modalism, Patripassianism believed that the Father suffered as the Son.



Tritheism
...Tritheism confessses the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as three independent divine beings; three separate gods who share the 'same substance'. This is a common mistake because of misunderstanding of the use of the term 'persons' in defining the Trinity.

Arianism
...taught that the preexistent Christ was the first and greatest of God’s creatures but denied his fully divine status. The Arian controversy was of major importance in the development of Christology during the fourth century and was addressed definitely in the Nicene Creed.

Docetism
...taught that Jesus Christ as a purely divine being who only had the “appearance” of being human. Regarding his suffering, some versions taught that Jesus’ divinity abandoned or left him upon the cross while other claimed that he only appeared to suffer (much like he only appeared to be human).

Ebionitism
...taught that while Jesus was endowed with particular charismatic gifts which distinguished him from other humans but nonetheless regarded Him as a purely human figure.

Macedonianism
...that that the Holy Spirit is a created being.

Adoptionism
...taught that Jesus was born totally human and only later was “adopted” – either at his baptism or at his resurrection – by God in a special (i.e. divine) way.

Partialism
...taught that Father, Son and Holy Spirit together are components of the one God. This led them to believe that each of the persons of the Trinity is only part God, only becoming fully God when they come together.
 
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