Is there a place at the table for white men?

jimmyjimmy

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There's a saying which (I think) actually comes out of disability advocacy but works well for any advocacy situation: Nothing about me, without me.

White people can't be blamed for the misfortunes of others if we work with them on a consensus agenda. We can't be fought tooth and nail if, instead of trying to impose our own solutions on others, we work with them to create solutions.

We should invest in the welfare of minority communities, but we shouldn't do that in a way which says, "I'm successful, I have the answers, you should do what I did (or as I say)." Rather we should do it in a way which says, "Tell me what obstacles you're facing, and let's see what we can do together to shift them."

That's called "leading" from behind. It ridiculous as it handcuffs those who know, by those who know not.

If I'm in a financial mess, I can hire an accountant to advise me, and help me out of the ditch I'm in, but if I assume to know more than he, I am firstly mistaken, and the evidence of my predicament demonstrates that, and secondly, I am a fool for asking his help if I don't intend to heed his advice.
 
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Paidiske

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Not so much handcuffs us as forces us to listen, which is important. You might be in a financial mess, but if your accountant doesn't listen to you as to how you got there and why you haven't been able to get out, her advice might be based on false assumptions and be highly inappropriate. Even leaders have to listen first.
 
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zephcom

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That's called "leading" from behind. It ridiculous as it handcuffs those who know, by those who know not.

If I'm in a financial mess, I can hire an accountant to advise me, and help me out of the ditch I'm in, but if I, assume to know more than he, I am firstly mistaken, and the evidence demonstrates that. Secondly, I am a fool for asking his help if I don't intend to heed his advice.

Fortunately for the children and families in Tangelo Park, Florida, Harris Rosen wasn't told how ridiculous that concept is. He went into the community and asked them what they needed to work their way out of poverty...and then he funded it.

Tangelo Park Program
 
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PeaceB

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Decades of white, liberal, paternalistic treatment of blacks is much of the cause for their woes, so I don't blame them for not wanting whites in office.
This statement is paternalistic. White liberals assume that our problems are caused by white conservatives, and white conservatives assume that our problems are caused by white liberals. You are two sides of the same coin - both of you assume that our fate is dependent on the policy decisions of white people.
 
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PeaceB

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This is my point as well. If blacks want to raise their standard of living perhaps they can take some advice from successful white people who are willing to give it, instead of shouting us down.
With all due respect, who are you that we should want to emulate you? American society is in complete moral and economic decline.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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With all due respect, who are you that we should want to emulate you? American society is in complete moral and economic decline.

I noticed that this group of young black people aren't dressed like gangbangers or 'ho's. In fact, as a successful white man, I would have strongly urged them to dress just like this; for success. :D
Tangelo Park Program
TPP-HeaderImage1.jpg

 
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OldWiseGuy

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With all due respect, who are you that we should want to emulate you? American society is in complete moral and economic decline.

I'm exactly the person who should be emulated. Neither my morality or economic success is in decline. :holy:
 
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jimmyjimmy

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I'm exactly the person who should be emulated. Neither my morality or economic success is in decline. :holy:

In our Postmodern, Relativistic society, it's completely against the rules to clame to be right (although, they do it all of the time), or successful. Firstly, if you are right, that means someone else is wrong, and they simply can't have that, and secondly, if you are successful it means one of two things, you've either cheated or had an unfair advantage.

This is one of the best videos on YT. It explains how the Liberal mind works. I could not recommend it more:

 
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Dave-W

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White liberals assume that our problems are caused by white conservatives, and white conservatives assume that our problems are caused by white liberals. You are two sides of the same coin - both of you assume that our fate is dependent on the policy decisions of white people.
For almost 2 centuries this country (USA) was run almost exclusively by white men. So the problems had to come from either white male conservatives or white male liberals.
 
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zephcom

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I noticed that this group of young black people aren't dressed like gangbangers or 'ho's. In fact, as a successful white man, I would have strongly urged them to dress just like this; for success. :D
Tangelo Park Program
TPP-HeaderImage1.jpg


Cart and horse. This picture represents the efforts of that white man who FIRST consulted with the Black community about what was needed to bring this picture together. Instead of just telling Black kids to wear nice clothes so they can look successful, he funded the changes which resulted in that picture.

I suspect you are unable to see beyond the nice clothes to recognize the changes in life, community and hope that preceded the nice clothes.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Cart and horse. This picture represents the efforts of that white man who FIRST consulted with the Black community about what was needed to bring this picture together. Instead of just telling Black kids to wear nice clothes so they can look successful, he funded the changes which resulted in that picture.

I suspect you are unable to see beyond the nice clothes to recognize the changes in life, community and hope that preceded the nice clothes.

I see it as an organic whole.

Dress is very important and is a valuable part of the overall effort. It often accomplishes changes in attitude and behavior right off the bat.

Do you think soldiers should receive uniforms only after they have completed their training?

"Clothes make the man", and, "Dress for success". Trite but true.

"If one wants to be successful in Rome, do what successful Romans do." :D-OldWiseGuy
 
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zephcom

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I see it as an organic whole.

Dress is very important and is a valuable part of the overall effort. It often accomplishes changes in attitude and behavior right off the bat.

Do you think soldiers should receive uniforms only after they have completed their training?

"Clothes make the man", and, "Dress for success". Trite but true.

"If one wants to be successful in Rome, do what successful Romans do." :D-OldWiseGuy


That you see it as an organic whole and then proceed to make dressing nice a priority indicates you should not be in charge of getting People of Color out the situation they are in.

That you would also compare this endeavor to training soldiers further disqualifies you to advise this process. One is not trying to create mindless human-bots that are willing to kill and be killed at the whim of politicians. One is trying to create individuals capable of becoming leaders, trainers, and creators in society. Forcing them into a 'uniform' immediately or flushing them down the drain is not the way to do that.

Dressing nicely won't keep this from happening:

lynching.png
 
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CitizenD

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You sound racist.

You do understand that they are all elected, right?

Ah yes, the rejoinder of the conservative: I'm not racist, you're racist. Just ignore the fact that my president just equivocated between protesters and nazis.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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That you see it as an organic whole and then proceed to make dressing nice a priority indicates you should not be in charge of getting People of Color out the situation they are in.

That you would also compare this endeavor to training soldiers further disqualifies you to advise this process. One is not trying to create mindless human-bots that are willing to kill and be killed at the whim of politicians. One is trying to create individuals capable of becoming leaders, trainers, and creators in society. Forcing them into a 'uniform' immediately or flushing them down the drain is not the way to do that.

Dressing nicely won't keep this from happening:

lynching.png

You and I are way too far apart on this topic. Agree to disagree?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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This statement is paternalistic. White liberals assume that our problems are caused by white conservatives, and white conservatives assume that our problems are caused by white liberals. You are two sides of the same coin - both of you assume that our fate is dependent on the policy decisions of white people.

You (I assume you are black by your comments) have decided your own fate without input from the white community. Black problems are just that....black problems. For example a white youth can go astray and still have a family and community support structure. That structure, largely financially supported, has been developed over thousands of years. Many black communities lack this structure and therefore suffer terribly as there is no one to give help in time of need. Well intentioned white people offer help and advice in an attempt to change this social dynamic. Instead our success, built up over millennia, is blamed for the misfortunes of blacks, that have only recently accessed these same opportunities.

Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither will blacks obtain social or financial equality with whites without laying a firm, and likely a painfully time consuming, foundation. A foundation built on the same principles that whites have used for generations.
 
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zephcom

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You and I are way too far apart on this topic. Agree to disagree?

I can agree that you and I are way apart on this topic.

Of course that doesn't mean that I accept your position on the topic as valid or worthwhile. It isn't. It is just the 'same old same old' that hasn't worked in the past and won't work now.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I can agree that you and I are way apart on this topic.

Of course that doesn't mean that I accept your position on the topic as valid or worthwhile. It isn't. It is just the 'same old same old' that hasn't worked in the past and won't work now.

Works for me. :D
 
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