Is there a Hierarchy in the Trinity?

[ArmyMatt]

That's than interesting idea. So sharing the same will avoids any kind of unequal subordination?

yes, and the same activity, work, force, and power.

 

[Not David]

yes, and the same activity, work, force, and power.

Thanks Father, sorry that I bother you with questions. I could ask about Star Wars but I prefer the prequels

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thanks Father, sorry that I bother you with questions. I could ask about Star Wars but I prefer the prequels

you don't bother me.

and I hate the prequels, good call.

 

[Not David]

you don't bother me.

and I hate the prequels, good call.

It's ok Father, I understand that priests make mistakes too.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It's ok Father, I understand that priests make mistakes too.

we do, like I did when I thought Episode 1 would be worth my time, Episode 2 couldn't be worse than Episode 1, and they have to round out Episode 3 well.

those were 3 costly mistakes.

 

[SalemsConcordance]

I am only a convert (in Catechism) but I found St Nikolai's Daily Prologue from Ochrid very enlightening on clarifying the Trinity when I had (and still do) get rough edges). I can find the dates if you are interested, and more on this subject (their are 4-6 thus far I have collected that are more specific to the Trinity). I hope Fr Matt corrects anything here, or if I'm wresting.

Calendar:
The Prologue from Ochrid | Australian and New Zealand Diocese (ROCOR)
Date:
September 22


September 22

HOMILY

And I will pray the Father and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever (John 14:16).

Brethren, where there is love, there are no commands; requests take the place of commands. Among those who love one another, a request has greater power than does a command among those who do not love. The Holy Trinity represents the supreme kingdom and majesty of love. Isaiah refers to the Holy Trinity as Mighty Counsel (Isaiah 9:6) and the Incarnate Son of God as Angel of Great Counsel--that is, messenger. How does this counsel relate to the unity of God? You yourself are one being, but you still take counsel with yourself. Your mind asks your will, "Can you?" and asks your heart, "Do you want to?" And the will and the heart ask your mind: "Do you know how?" And, yet, even with this internal counseling with yourself, you are still one--one man, one person. Naturally, this is but a pale illustration and shadow of the Holy Trinity and Their perfect counsel, for there is complete equality and harmony of Persons in the Holy Trinity. That which the Father wills, the Son and the Holy Spirit immediately will. And He shall give you another Comforter. See how confident the Son of God is--that whatever He would request and counsel would immediately be confirmed in the great Divine Counsel? The Father will agree to send, and the Spirit will agree to be sent. The Son of God does not say: "I will pray to the Father to give you, and I believe that He will give you." Rather, He says: "I will pray and He will give you." He knows in advance that the Father will give what He asks. He knows this--if it can be thus said--from His own eternal experience. For through all eternity harmony reigns, has reigned and will reign between the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. He shall give you another Comforter. By these words, the complete equality of the Son and the Holy Spirit is revealed. In other words, "The Father will send you another Comforter--equal in power with Me, of one Essence with Me and equal in honor with Me. He will be able to fully act for Me in His way in accordance with His Divine Person, which is uniquely different from My Person as the Son."

O my brethren, do you see how the undivided Holy Trinity participates in our salvation? Do you see Whose we are? Do you see what dignity is given to us mortal and sinful ones? O Most-holy and Most-glorious Trinity our God, have mercy on us and save us.

To Thee be glory and praise forever. Amen.

 

[Xenophon]

Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. Son is begotten by Father. Isn't that a hierarchy?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. Son is begotten by Father. Isn't that a hierarchy?

see post 10 (shameless plug)

 

[buzuxi02]

There is an ordering within the Trinity. Many church fathers view God the Father as the monarch of the Trinity. That is He is the source and point of unity of the Trinity on the principle of causality.

 

[ArmyMatt]

There is an ordering within the Trinity. Many church fathers view God the Father as the monarch of the Trinity. That is He is the source and point of unity of the Trinity on the principle of causality.

yep, I think I read somewhere that He is also the source of the distinction between the other Two Persons as well.

 

[disciple Clint]

There is an ordering within the Trinity. Many church fathers view God the Father as the monarch of the Trinity. That is He is the source and point of unity of the Trinity on the principle of causality.

Subordinationism is not orthodox.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Subordinationism is not orthodox.

no one is advocating subordinationism

 

[Lukaris]

I think St. Thalassios ( 7th c.) covers the matters of coequal, coeternal, & hierarchy of the Trinity:

St. Thalassios ( 7th c. AD) ( 2nd c. of writings #13, Philokalia vol.2).

“Just as the single essence of the Godhead is said to exist in three Persons, so the Holy Trinity is confessed to have one essence.” ( #91)

“We regard the Father as unoriginate and as the source; as unoriginate because He is unbegotten, and as the source because He is the begetter of the Son and the sender forth of the Holy Spirit both of whom are by essence from Him and in Him from all eternity.” (#92)

St. Thalassios ( 4th c. of writings,#91, #92, Philokalia vol.2)

 

[buzuxi02]

Subordinationism is not orthodox.

In the early church subordination was tied to homoiousion of persons. That is the three persons were 'alike' in substance thus being subordinate in essence. The heretics during St. Basil's time refered to the subordinate rankings as subnumeration of rank while Basil refuted this saying it would be accurate to call the ranking of order as a con-numeration.

St. John of Damascus in BK 1 of his Exposition of the faith explains:

Therefore, God is one, perfect, uncircumscribed, maker of the universe, and its preserver and governor, exceeding and preceding all perfection.
Moreover, it is a natural necessity that duality should originate in unity.

So then this one and only God is not Wordless. And possessing the Word, He will have it not as without a subsistence, nor as having had a beginning, nor as destined to cease to be. For there never was a time when God was not Word: but He ever possesses His own Word, begotten of Himself......But since God is everlasting and perfect, He will have His Word subsistent in Him, and everlasting and living, and possessed of all the attributes of the Begetter. (Chapters 5-6)

....So then in the first sense of the word the three absolutely divine subsistences of the Holy Godhead agree : for they exist as one in essence and uncreate. But with the second signification it is quite otherwise. For the Father alone is ingenerate , no other subsistence having given Him being. And the Son alone is generate, for He was begotten of the Father's essence without beginning and without time. And only the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father's essence....... But if we say that the Father is the origin of the Son and greater than the Son, we do not suggest any precedence in time or superiority in nature of the Father over the Son John 14:28 (for through His agency He made the ages ), or superiority in any other respect save causation... Ch. 8

 

[disciple Clint]

In the early church subordination was tied to homoiousion of persons. That is the three persons were 'alike' in substance thus being subordinate in essence. The heretics during St. Basil's time refered to the subordinate rankings as subnumeration of rank while Basil refuted this saying it would be accurate to call the ranking of order as a con-numeration.

St. John of Damascus in BK 1 of his Exposition of the faith explains:

Therefore, God is one, perfect, uncircumscribed, maker of the universe, and its preserver and governor, exceeding and preceding all perfection.
Moreover, it is a natural necessity that duality should originate in unity.

So then this one and only God is not Wordless. And possessing the Word, He will have it not as without a subsistence, nor as having had a beginning, nor as destined to cease to be. For there never was a time when God was not Word: but He ever possesses His own Word, begotten of Himself......But since God is everlasting and perfect, He will have His Word subsistent in Him, and everlasting and living, and possessed of all the attributes of the Begetter. (Chapters 5-6)

....So then in the first sense of the word the three absolutely divine subsistences of the Holy Godhead agree : for they exist as one in essence and uncreate. But with the second signification it is quite otherwise. For the Father alone is ingenerate , no other subsistence having given Him being. And the Son alone is generate, for He was begotten of the Father's essence without beginning and without time. And only the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father's essence....... But if we say that the Father is the origin of the Son and greater than the Son, we do not suggest any precedence in time or superiority in nature of the Father over the Son John 14:28 (for through His agency He made the ages ), or superiority in any other respect save causation... Ch. 8

I am going to stick with the Nicene Creed and homoousios of one essence.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I am going to stick with the Nicene Creed and homoousios of one essence.

again, no one is denying this.

in fact, the last paragraph of what you quoted affirms the consubstantiality of essence.

 

[zippy2006]

we do, like I did when I thought Episode 1 would be worth my time, Episode 2 couldn't be worse than Episode 1, and they have to round out Episode 3 well.

those were 3 costly mistakes.

It is my understanding that the Orthodox view says that Episode 3 flows directly from Episode 1 and not from Episode 1 and Episode 2; and that although Episode 2 and 3 are causally dependent on Episode 1, all three Episodes are equally bad. Can you confirm this?

 

[ArmyMatt]

It is my understanding that the Orthodox view says that Episode 3 flows directly from Episode 1 and not from Episode 1 and Episode 2; and that although Episode 2 and 3 are causally dependent on Episode 1, all three Episodes are equally bad. Can you confirm this?

no. episode 3 is the worst, and they are all trash. none of the prequels are worth any more brain cells.

 

[Not David]

no. episode 3 is the worst, and they are all trash. none of the prequels are worth any more brain cells.

Sad

 

[ArmyMatt]

Sad

indeed they are