Is there a Hierarchy in the Trinity?

Radagast

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The simple answer is no, all three persons are equally God

At the risk of hijacking the thread, all conservative Christians agree on the ontological Trinity. To quote the Athanasian Creed:

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.

The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.


However, the O.P. may be alluding to debate in Protestant circles about the economic Trinity. Are the Son and the Holy Spirit subservient to the Father? And if so, in what way?

When Jesus says in John 5:19: "
Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing," do those words also apply to the pre-incarnate Logos, or only to the incarnate Jesus?

When we say, with the Creed, "
the Holy Spirit ... proceeds from the Father," does that imply subservience or hierarchy of some kind?

I, for one, would certainly be interested in the Orthodox view on this (I am not asking for non-Orthodox views).
 
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disciple Clint

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At the risk of hijacking the thread, all conservative Christians agree on the ontological Trinity. To quote the Athanasian Creed:

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.

The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.


However, the O.P. may be alluding to debate in Protestant circles about the economic Trinity. Are the Son and the Holy Spirit subservient to the Father? And if so, in what way?

When Jesus says in John 5:19: "
Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing," do those words also apply to the pre-incarnate Logos, or only to the incarnate Jesus?

When we say, with the Creed, "
the Holy Spirit ... proceeds from the Father," does that imply subservience or hierarchy of some kind?

I, for one, would certainly be interested in the Orthodox view on this.
Longer answer:
the Son can do nothing of himself;
or he does do nothing of himself, nor will he do anything of himself; that is, he neither does, nor will, nor can do anything alone or separate from his Father, or in which he is not concerned; not anything without his knowledge and consent, or contrary to his will: he does everything in conjunction with him; with the same power, having the same will, being of the same nature, and equal to each other: for these words do not design any weakness in the Son, or want of power in him to do anything of himself; that is, by his own power: for he has by his word of power spoke all things out of nothing, and by the same upholds all things; he has himself bore the sins of his people, and by himself purged them away, and has raised himself from the dead; but they express his perfection; that he does nothing, and can do nothing of himself, in opposition to his Father, and in contradiction to his will: as Satan speaks of his own, and evil men alienated from God, act of themselves, and do that which is contrary to the nature and will of God; but the Son cannot do so, being of the same nature with God, and therefore never acts separate from him, or contrary to him, but always co-operates and acts with him, and therefore never to be blamed for what he does. The Syriac, Arabic, and Persic versions render it, "the Son cannot do anything of his own will"; so Nonnus; as separate from, or contrary to his Father's will, but always in agreement with it, they being one in nature, and so in will and work. He does nothing therefore but what he seeth the Father do John 5:19 - Commentary & Verse Meaning - Bible



For example, Protestants and Roman Catholics agree on the doctrine of the Trinity. When the Reformers broke with the papacy, they did not break with all that the Western Christian tradition had taught for millennia. They retained, for example, the NicenoConstantinopolitan Creed, particularly the version of the creed used in the West, which differs from the version used in the Eastern Orthodox Churches. The Western version states that the Holy Spirit “proceeds from the Father and the Son.” The “and the Son” portion of the creed is also known as the filioque clause, and it identifies what distinguishes the Holy Spirit from the Father and from the Son.

As we noted in our last study, the Holy Spirit is fully God, along with the other two persons of the Trinity. The three persons are not distinguished by different divine attributes, for They share the same attributes. Instead, they are distinguished by Their relation one to another. We confess that the Father is unbegotten and that the Son is eternally begotten of the Father (John 1:1–18). We confess that the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and the Son, though Eastern Orthodoxy says the Spirit proceeds eternally only from the Father. The Spirit Who Proceeds
 
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Not David

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At the risk of hijacking the thread, all conservative Christians agree on the ontological Trinity. To quote the Athanasian Creed:

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.

The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.


However, the O.P. may be alluding to debate in Protestant circles about the economic Trinity. Are the Son and the Holy Spirit subservient to the Father? And if so, in what way?

When Jesus says in John 5:19: "
Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing," do those words also apply to the pre-incarnate Logos, or only to the incarnate Jesus?

When we say, with the Creed, "
the Holy Spirit ... proceeds from the Father," does that imply subservience or hierarchy of some kind?

I, for one, would certainly be interested in the Orthodox view on this.
I was going to say that this is the Orthodox forum but then I remembered that this is the debate section lol
 
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Radagast

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I was going to say that this is the Orthodox forum but then I remembered that this is the debate section lol

And I was explicit that I wanted Orthodox views. I have edited my post to make that even more explicit.

Sorry again about hijacking your question. I was really, really interested in the answer, but early replies seemed to me to be interpreting it in an unhelpful way.
 
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Not David

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And I was explicit that I wanted Orthodox views. I have edited my post to make that even more explicit.

Sorry again about hijacking your question. I was really, really interested in the answer, but early replies seemed to me to be interpreting it in an unhelpful way.
Yeah, I was expecting Fr. Matt or someone else to come, maybe he is busy.
 
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Radagast

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only in terms of causality, and not of authority or power. the Father is the uncaused cause of the Son (begotten) and the Spirit (procession).

In terms of my expansion of the OP's question, does that mean when Jesus says in John 5:19: "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing," those words do not apply to the pre-incarnate Logos, but only to the incarnate Jesus?

(I'm just trying to get a handle on the Orthodox view here)
 
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ArmyMatt

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In terms of my expansion of the OP's question, does that mean when Jesus says in John 5:19: "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing," those words do not apply to the pre-incarnate Logos, but only to the incarnate Jesus?

(I'm just trying to get a handle on the Orthodox view here)

yes, because there is only one Son.
 
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Radagast

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yes, because there is only one Son.

I'm afraid I didn't quite understand that.

In Orthodox theology, is the Son "eternally subservient" to the Father in any way, or not?

In Protestant theology, those who deny "eternally subservience of the Son" do so precisely by trying to distinguish the pre-incarnate Logos from Jesus.

(no doubt I'm making the very common mistake of trying to map Orthodox theology on to a Protestant spectrum when in fact it's fundamentally different in nature)
 
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disciple Clint

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If so how is it set up?
I did not intend to offend anyone with my post. If I did I am very sorry, I respect everyone right to their own Theology, I was only attempting to answer a question and frankly I did not notice what section of the site I was on.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I'm afraid I didn't quite understand that.

In Orthodox theology, is the Son "eternally subservient" to the Father in any way, or not?

In Protestant theology, those who deny "eternally subservience of the Son" do so precisely by trying to distinguish the pre-incarnate Logos from Jesus.

(no doubt I'm making the very common mistake of trying to map Orthodox theology on to a Protestant spectrum when in fact it's fundamentally different in nature)

in a sense, yes, but not because the Father has authority over the Son.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Thank you. That doesn't 100% answer my question, but it does agree with what I happen to believe, so that's encouraging.

well, He is subservient to the Father in the sense that from before creation, that's what the Son willed. but it's not that the Father forces or orders the Son to do anything.
 
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Not David

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only in terms of causality, and not of authority or power. the Father is the uncaused cause of the Son (begotten) and the Spirit (procession).
Isn't "uncaused caused" contradictory or maybe I am not understanding the meaning.
 
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Not David

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well, He is subservient to the Father in the sense that from before creation, that's what the Son willed. but it's not that the Father forces or orders the Son to do anything.
That's than interesting idea. So sharing the same will avoids any kind of unequal subordination?
 
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ArmyMatt

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Isn't "uncaused caused" contradictory or maybe I am not understanding the meaning.

no, the Father has no cause Himself, but the Son and Spirit are both caused by Him. in other words, the Father is their divine source.
 
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