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Featured Is there a gap between 1 Corinthians 15:23 and verse 24?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by DavidPT, Dec 19, 2017.

  1. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    They’re not always pretty, but it has its moments. But just because there are struggles and tribulations, doesn’t mean Christ is not in control.
     
  2. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  3. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
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  4. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
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  5. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    So do you think he's in heaven? I'm just asking, not because I'm testing you because I don't have the answer either, but it's a bit of a conundrum in my mind. You said, what if God took him but did not ascend. What does that mean? Where would God have taken him?
     
  6. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  7. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
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  8. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    So I did some research on this and found something interesting regarding Enoch.

    The word used in Hebrews 11:5 for "translated" is metethēken. This same word is also used in Acts 7:16.

    Their bodies were brought back to Shechem and placed in the tomb. So here we see that Jacob was taken / "translated" and placed in the tomb, because he'd died. So "translated" does not mean "transformed into immortality" as is commonly assumed. It just means he was taken or moved.

    In the same way God took and buried Moses in Deuteronomy 34:6. To this day nobody knows where he was buried. And so it is with Enoch. Nobody knows where Enoch was buried because God buried him. This is what Paul said about Enoch in Hebrews 11:5 "
    He could not be found, because God had taken him away."

    Also, we know that Enoch did die because Paul says in Hebrews 11:13 "
    All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised" and when he says "they" that includes Enoch.

    And Genesis 5:23 says "
    Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years". If he had not died, then he would still be living, but Genesis 5:23 says he stopped living after 365 years. So he died.

    Mystery solved. Enoch did not go to heaven, just as Jesus said, but he was not found because God buried him, just as he'd buried Moses.

     
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  9. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    Pretty nice work overall (I might use this here and there if you don't mind, full credit of course) we know if BABerean2 is against you it has to be correct Eschatology...:eek:. Now on the flip side, something you probably didn't intend, or might not have intended. But do you see the Rapture here?

    (NIV) 1 Corinthians 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28

    My question is this, does this show the Rapture in your eyes, via the THEN when he comes?

    I see it could possibly be Christ the First-fruits was raised from the Dead.....THEN when he for those that belong unto him......THEN after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

    In other words is this a three pronged event?

    Christ raised from the Dead...............THEN the Rapture............THEN those that he gathers at his Second Coming?

    I am just staring to look at it, so its just an inquiry so to speak, I never come to a conclusion until I have studied something in depth and prayed about it, so its just an observation.

    Good work over all, very insightful.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
  10. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  11. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  12. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  13. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I agree that the Greek language word shows it was a transfer from life to death which does harmonize with Genesis 3:15 as you say.

    "meta" (to take and place "after") plus "tithemi" (to lay horizontal)

    Literally the word "metatithemi" tells us that God took Enoch to a point "after" life and laid him down horizontal in death without him having to know it was coming or experience the pangs of death. A tribute to our compassionate God.

    Good job of researching and kudos on the humility to accept what you found.

    Edit: Sorry, I glitched and had to go back to complete the thought of "meta." Please see the correction above.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
  14. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    What happened to Enoch and what happened to people when they died before Jesus died and resurrected is not explained in total detail in one book so we have to use reasoning to find what is the most reasonable explanation.
    When Jesus said that no one has ascended into heaven he was referring to people that had died before Jesus came to earth and before his own resurrection . As no one can ascend into heaven before Jesus does as it is He that paves the way.

    Scripture tells us that when people died before Jesus came that they go to a place called Sheol -which is the place of the dead - So using logical sense of reasoning it makes no sense that the dead people who were evil and killing people out of hatred will be in the same exact place as people who followed and served Almighty God .
    Sheol- the place of the dead is divided into two sides one is called paradise/ and later called Abraham's bosom and the other side is called hell/hades- an unseen place of fiery torment .
    Now the carnal minded teachers do not understand this place called Sheol and the story about it so in order for them to explain away what happens at death they conjured up this false teaching of "soul sleep" . Rather than accepting Gods word they had to make up a teaching to replace Sheol and call it a parable - but as doing that they substitute Gods word of explaining and put their own false teaching in it's place.

    Soul sleep is not found in scripture - it is the body that sleeps as it is motionless when it has died but the soul/spirit does not sleep and does not die -it is an eternal spirit .
    After Jesus resurrection we see the scripture tell us in no uncertain terms , point blank direct that the bodies in the graves opened by themselves and out came living people who were dead and now they are alive and living and went into the cities and seen by many people.

    Matt 27
    52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
    53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

    This is a fact that dead people came out of the graves and went into the cities and were seen by many . So we again must use sound logical reasoning and ask why did this happen - the answer is that at this time Jesus resurrected those in paradise and they went into heaven. Scripture does not state this outright and as such many teachers simply CHOOSE TO IGNORE this matter as it skews up their doctrine and they have no facts to say otherwise so they don't include it in their teachings.

    Some will try to say that those resurrected people who were dead and again alive simply lived out their lives and died at a later time -but no where in scripture it says anything of the sort; as it is just mans teaching so they don't have to make their doctrine accommodate this truth that they rose from the dead and lived .

    Hebr 9
    7 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

    It is a false teaching to say that those who were resurrected from the graves and went into the cities to speak to people - that they lived out their years and died; for that is in opposition to what scripture tells us - scripture doesn't say specifically what happened to those people , but the rational logical level of reasoning is to follow biblical teaching that people only die once then comes judgment and the most probable thing that happened to them is they were taken up to where Christ is now as they have already came up and out from where they were in the graves.

    In all likelihood Enoch was taken into the eternal presence of Almighty God , the reason is simple rational reasoning , God was pleased with Enoch , God thought very highly of Enoch . God took him - there is no logical reasoning that God would take Enoch whom he was pleased with and put him in a tomb with dead people , nothing sensible in God taking a man he is pleased with who is alive and put him in a grave ; but is is logical and reasonable and in keeping with biblical teachings that God took Enoch to be in Gods eternal presence - scripture does tell us that at some point in time some true believers in Christ will receive a new immortal body without having to experience death in the earthly body ; so it stands to reason the same has already happened to Enoch. Saying that Enoch had lived 365 years ,could mean he died , but it could mean that is how long he was on earth before God took him - since it is most common that when people died there is some reference to that they died and often how they died

    There are other biblical books that are written that did not make it into the canon simply because they were assembling the biblical writings that were to be a handbook for sinners to learn who Almighty God is and what he will do and has done for His creation that has been created in His own image so that they may learn how to spend eternity with Him and not eternity without Him.

    The other books such as Book of Angels it is recorded that people were beginning to worship angels so that book was not included in the canon.The book of Enoch was not included either as other books that did not make it into the canon does not mean they have no biblical value in bringing understanding to writings in the canonized writings
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
  15. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    Elijah is a bit different, but this is fascinating. It's a bit complicated but fascinating. When he was taken up in the whirlwind (aka "tornado") he was taken up into the first heaven, which is our atmosphere where the birds fly.

    And we know that he was still alive several years after the whirlwind event because he wrote a letter. How do we know this?

    First of all, we know that Elisha had already taken the mantle of prophet from Elijah during the reign of Joram son of Ahab. 2 Kings 3.

    Joram son of Ahab became king over Israel in Samaria during the eighteenth year of Judah’s King Jehoshaphat and reigned 12 years.

    Immediately after king Joram began to reign (2 Kings 1), Elijah was taken up in the whirlwind (2 Kings 2). We know this not only because of the order of the book of 2nd Kings (chapter 2 comes after chapter 1) but also because it's confirmed in chapter 3 that Elisha is the new prophet.

    11 But Jehoshaphat said, “Isn’t there a prophet of the Lord here? Let’s inquire of Yahweh through him.” One of the servants of the king of Israel answered, “Elisha son of Shaphat, who used to pour water on Elijah’s hands, is here.”

    Elisha had picked up the mantle (literally) when Elijah was taken by the whirlwind.

    2 Kings 2:13
    Elisha picked up the mantle that had fallen off Elijah and went back and stood on the bank of the Jordan.

    Five years into the reign of King Joram of Israel (and five years after the whirlwind), a new king began his reign in Judah (in place of Jehosophat). This King's name was Jeroham.

    2 Kings 8:16
    In the fifth year of Joram son of Ahab king of Israel, when Jehoshaphat was king of Judah, Jehoram son of Jehoshaphat began his reign as king of Judah.

    Now this next verse is the key. One of the things he did as King was to kill his brothers so that they couldn't claim the throne.

    2 Chronicles 21:4
    When Jehoram had established himself over his father’s kingdom, he strengthened his position by killing with the sword all his brothers as well as some of the princes of Israel.

    Then came the letter from Elijah.

    2 Chronicles 21:12-15
    Jehoram received a letter from Elijah the prophet, which said:

    “This is what the Lord, the God of your father David, says: ‘You have not followed the ways of your father Jehoshaphat or of Asa king of Judah. 13 But you have followed the ways of the kings of Israel, and you have led Judah and the people of Jerusalem to prostitute themselves, just as the house of Ahab did. You have also murdered your own brothers, members of your own family, men who were better than you. 14 So now the Lord is about to strike your people, your sons, your wives and everything that is yours, with a heavy blow. 15 You yourself will be very ill with a lingering disease of the bowels, until the disease causes your bowels to come out.’”


    The letter proves that Elijah was alive after king Jehoram of Israel killed his own brothers, and that happened five years after king Joram of Judah began to reign, which is exactly when Elijah was taken up in the whirlwind.

    Bottom line, Elijah survived the whirlwind.
     
  16. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    Sheol and Hades are the same thing. Sheol is Hebrew, Hades is Greek. They both just mean the unseen place of the dead, but there's nothing to indicate that it's a "fiery place of torment". I really encourage you to do some research on this.
     
  17. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    The author is giving a story about faith and how the OT saints had faith to make a greater point: that yes they were all commended for the faith BUT did not receive what was promised because APART from the body of Christ they could not be made perfect. Hebrews 11:39-40


    You're drawing an imaginary line that doesn't exist to split the scripture.

    Again before Jesus, no one had ascended to the Father, how do you explain this?????
     
  18. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    I studied this a while back. You have put this together very nicely and easy to understand!
     
  19. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    That is similar to what I said , but since it's meaning has been 'utilized' by various theologians it would depend on who's writing and interpretations you choose to read and follow as various writers will make claims that in their view 'such and such' other writer went too far or didn't go far enough , so there is enough interpretations for everyone
    Jesus telling of the parable of Lazarus and the rich man is telling of how on one side is pleasantness and s great gulf on the other side and God is telling :
    4 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
    In all consideration what is abundantly clear teaching is that what state of condition you are at when you die determines if you spend all eternity in the presence of Almighty God or you spend all eternity in the presence of eternal damnation in the lake of fire that burns forever and ever - it is a real place created specifically for satan and the fallen angels , and that is where all people who have rejected Christ Jesus end up . So regardless if hades is just some place that is unseen , so is the lake of fire unseen to us but is very real , and when a person dies there are no more chances to try to get into the presence of God which is why it is important to make sure of living in a manner that guarantees being with God for eternity before you die
     
  20. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
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