So do you think he's in heaven? I'm just asking, not because I'm testing you because I don't have the answer either, but it's a bit of a conundrum in my mind. You said, what if God took him but did not ascend. What does that mean? Where would God have taken him?God took Him. He walked with God. So where was God at the time He took Enoch? No one has ascended to heaven - but what if God took him and he did not actually ascend?
We know that God came down and dwelt among us as in the holy thing that was in Mary per Luke. Did people see Jesus Christ as the Son of God come down out of heaven then?
To be changed at the resurrection of the just, one is stated as brought with Him and those that remain get caught up. Where does this leave Enoch if he is not in heaven? I think he will be one of the two witnesses and will be slain by the beast that ascends out of the pit. This would then place him as among the dead in Christ that can later be raised to eternal life bodies with their souls/spirits.
still thinking about all of this....
Pretty nice work overall (I might use this here and there if you don't mind, full credit of course) we know if BABerean2 is against you it has to be correct Eschatology.... Now on the flip side, something you probably didn't intend, or might not have intended. But do you see the Rapture here?1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Interestingly, verse 23 mentions nothing about the unsaved as well. But if we look at verse 25 and 26 though, the unsaved are clearly in mind there.
1 Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Verse 26 indicates that the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Obviously then, until Revelation 20:14 is fulfilled first, the fulfillment of 1 Corinthians 15:24 can't precede this. What needs to be detemined now, when is Revelation 20:14 meaning in relation to 1 Corinthians 15:23?
Let's consider Zechariah 14 for a moment.
Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
This is clearly meaning after the 2nd coming has occurred, and that these left of the nations couldn't possibly be blessed saints who have put on immortality. They have to be mortals then. No mortal person can live forever. This tells us that death has not yet been destroyed at this point, thus 1 Corinthians 15:24 has not yet been fulfilled.
Isaiah 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.
This too is meaning after 1 Corinthians 15:23 has already been fulfilled. This verse also proves death has not yet been destroyed at this point.
So based on the above alone, isn't this enough to prove there has to be a gap between 1 Corinthians 15:23 and verse 24? What gap might explain it then? How about the thousand years and satan's little season? Which BTW, reminds me of the following.
Isaiah 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
Let's do some comparing here.
that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth(Isaiah 24:21)
Compared with----
Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.-----the LORD shall punish the kings of the earth upon the earth(Isaiah 24:21)
Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit----the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high---And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison(Isaiah 24:21-22)
Obviously, if satan gets cast into the pit, so would his angels, thus these combined explain the 'they' in Isaiah 24:22.
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever----and after many days shall they be visited(Isaiah 24:22)
Per a position such as Amil, they have no logical answer for this part----and after many days shall they be visited(Isaiah 24:22).
So with this now added to what I already submitted before this, how can there not be a gap between 1 Corinthians 15:23 and verse 24, and this gap not be the thousand years and satan's little season?
Yes, I agree that the Greek language word shows it was a transfer from life to death which does harmonize with Genesis 3:15 as you say.So I did some research on this and found something interesting regarding Enoch.
The word used in Hebrews 11:5 for "translated" is metethēken. This same word is also used in Acts 7:16.
Their bodies were brought back to Shechem and placed in the tomb. So here we see that Jacob was taken / "translated" and placed in the tomb, because he'd died. So "translated" does not mean "transformed into immortality" as is commonly assumed. It just means he was taken or moved.
In the same way God took and buried Moses in Deuteronomy 34:6. To this day nobody knows where he was buried. And so it is with Enoch. Nobody knows where Enoch was buried because God buried him. This is what Paul said about Enoch in Hebrews 11:5 "He could not be found, because God had taken him away."
Also, we know that Enoch did die because Paul says in Hebrews 11:13 "All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised" and when he says "they" that includes Enoch.
And Genesis 5:23 says "Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years". If he had not died, then he would still be living, but Genesis 5:23 says he stopped living after 365 years. So he died.
Mystery solved. Enoch did not go to heaven, just as Jesus said, but he was not found because God buried him, just as he'd buried Moses.
Sheol and Hades are the same thing. Sheol is Hebrew, Hades is Greek. They both just mean the unseen place of the dead, but there's nothing to indicate that it's a "fiery place of torment". I really encourage you to do some research on this.Sheol- the place of the dead is divided into two sides one is called paradise/ and later called Abraham's bosom and the other side is called hell/hades- an unseen place of fiery torment .
Hebrews 11 does not show that Enoch died. It goes into the time of Abraham and then tells of what happened to those called out of a place to a new country that they could have returned to.
Was Noah called out to a place that he could have returned to? Enoch, Adam...
no - They are not included in the section as to those that -these all died - and came out of some country that they could have returned to.
Hebrews 11 shows that Enoch did not die.
that he should not see death
he had this testimony
Rev. 11 - when they shall have - finished their testimony
then - the beast that ascends out of the pit - eventually kills them
I studied this a while back. You have put this together very nicely and easy to understand!Elijah is a bit different, but this is fascinating. It's a bit complicated but fascinating. When he was taken up in the whirlwind (aka "tornado") he was taken up into the first heaven, which is our atmosphere where the birds fly.
And we know that he was still alive several years after the whirlwind event because he wrote a letter. How do we know this?
First of all, we know that Elisha had already taken the mantle of prophet from Elijah during the reign of Joram son of Ahab. 2 Kings 3.
Joram son of Ahab became king over Israel in Samaria during the eighteenth year of Judah’s King Jehoshaphat and reigned 12 years.
Immediately after king Joram began to reign (2 Kings 1), Elijah was taken up in the whirlwind (2 Kings 2). We know this not only because of the order of the book of 2nd Kings (chapter 2 comes after chapter 1) but also because it's confirmed in chapter 3 that Elisha is the new prophet.
11 But Jehoshaphat said, “Isn’t there a prophet of the Lord here? Let’s inquire of Yahweh through him.” One of the servants of the king of Israel answered, “Elisha son of Shaphat, who used to pour water on Elijah’s hands, is here.”
Elisha had picked up the mantle (literally) when Elijah was taken by the whirlwind.
2 Kings 2:13
Elisha picked up the mantle that had fallen off Elijah and went back and stood on the bank of the Jordan.
Five years into the reign of King Joram of Israel (and five years after the whirlwind), a new king began his reign in Judah (in place of Jehosophat). This King's name was Jeroham.
2 Kings 8:16
In the fifth year of Joram son of Ahab king of Israel, when Jehoshaphat was king of Judah, Jehoram son of Jehoshaphat began his reign as king of Judah.
Now this next verse is the key. One of the things he did as King was to kill his brothers so that they couldn't claim the throne.
2 Chronicles 21:4
When Jehoram had established himself over his father’s kingdom, he strengthened his position by killing with the sword all his brothers as well as some of the princes of Israel.
Then came the letter from Elijah.
2 Chronicles 21:12-15
Jehoram received a letter from Elijah the prophet, which said:
“This is what the Lord, the God of your father David, says: ‘You have not followed the ways of your father Jehoshaphat or of Asa king of Judah. 13 But you have followed the ways of the kings of Israel, and you have led Judah and the people of Jerusalem to prostitute themselves, just as the house of Ahab did. You have also murdered your own brothers, members of your own family, men who were better than you. 14 So now the Lord is about to strike your people, your sons, your wives and everything that is yours, with a heavy blow. 15 You yourself will be very ill with a lingering disease of the bowels, until the disease causes your bowels to come out.’”
The letter proves that Elijah was alive after king Jehoram of Israel killed his own brothers, and that happened five years after king Joram of Judah began to reign, which is exactly when Elijah was taken up in the whirlwind.
Bottom line, Elijah survived the whirlwind.
That is similar to what I said , but since it's meaning has been 'utilized' by various theologians it would depend on who's writing and interpretations you choose to read and follow as various writers will make claims that in their view 'such and such' other writer went too far or didn't go far enough , so there is enough interpretations for everyoneSheol and Hades are the same thing. Sheol is Hebrew, Hades is Greek. They both just mean the unseen place of the dead, but there's nothing to indicate that it's a "fiery place of torment". I really encourage you to do some research on this.