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Featured Is there a gap between 1 Corinthians 15:23 and verse 24?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by DavidPT, Dec 19, 2017.

  1. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2017
  2. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    How come then, I had to attend a funeral of a loved one the other day?
     
  3. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2017
  4. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    You are 100% correct when you indicate the resurrection of the believer takes place on "The Last Day". That only takes into account believers though. So where is there any text saying that the unsaved lost also rise in this same last day?
     
  5. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    And speaking of Isaiah 66, it would be at the 2nd coming where these carcasses come from, thus placing the thousand years on the new earth like I have been saying all along.

    Isaiah 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
    16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

    The above explains those in Isaiah 66:24 that have transgressed against the LORD. The fact they look upon their carcasses, there wouldn't still be carcasses lying around a thousand years later, thus Isaiah 66:24 is meaning at the beginning of the thousand years, and that Isaiah 66:22 places the time of Isaiah 66:24 during the new heavens and new earth. Yet, even Premils continue to disagree with me, let alone Amils, when I indicate the thousand years are during the new heavens and new earth.

    IMO, after both Isaiah 66:15-16 and Isaiah 66:24, it then leads to the following.

    Ezekiel 39:12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
    13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.
    14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.
    15 And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.
    16 And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.
     
  6. Cat Loaf You

    Cat Loaf You Active Member

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    You are not your body . You are eternal your body is not , we will get eternal body at rapture .
     
  7. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    We have covered this once, ill do it again

    John 6:40 teaches the last day resurrection of believers. We agree :)

    John 5:28-29 teaches "All" that are in the graves will hear his voice "Second Coming" will come forth, the word same "Hour" is used, we see judgment to eternal life, eternal damnation, final judgment.

    Daniel 12:1-2 is a parallel teaching showing the same final judgment of two groups, the book of life is opened, only one time will it be opened, final judgment.

    Matthew 26:31-46 shows the same second coming, final judgment, eternal kingdom, eternal damnation.

    2 Timothy 4:1 appearance, judgment, kingdom

    Revelation 11:15-18 second advent in the 7th trump, final judgment of two groups, rewards/wrath.

    Dave there are two groups, saved not saved, name in book of life, name not in book of life.

    Your teaching of "Three Groups" the intermediate group "Goats" isnt found in scripture.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
  8. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2017
  9. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    How can anyone be in heaven in the presence of the Father if the resurrection has not occurred yet? Why would we ascend to the Father before the resurrection if Christ ascended after the resurrection?



    In case you didn't get a chance to read this, ill leave it again:
    Well, we know from the words of Christ, that no one had ever ascended to heaven

    13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
    John 3:13-14

    Not even the OT saints were able to receive the promise before Christ:

    And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
    Hebrews 11:39-40


    Even after Christ was raised from the dead, Paul still states believers were still sleeping

    Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.
    1 Corinthians 15:6

    Paul goes even further to explain that if Christ isn’t raised then those who are sleeping have perished (that doesn’t sound like people have immortal souls).

    And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
    1 Corinthians 15:17-18

    He goes even farther again, to say that if there is no ressurection, than nothing matters for tomorrow we die.

    But if the soul goes to heaven, as you say it does, well than there is hope in life after death
    before the ressurection, which is the opposite of what Paul says


    What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.”
    1 Corinthians 15:32

    Christ is the 1st fruit of being raised from the dead and ascending to the Father.

    But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
    1 Corinthians 15:20

    And here is my biggest point:

    If Christ did not ascend to heaven until AFTER he was raised (John 20:17), why would we ascend to heaven BEFORE being raised?

     
  10. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    I didn't see an answer but no need, really, too: there is no "opposite" here - All Scripture is in Perfect Harmony with DavidPT's post, even the verse from Acts 24 quoted completely agrees entirely.
     
  11. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Or after death/sleep/ sometime anyway, all those so appointed by YHWH.
     
  12. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    To satisfy a very old MYTH ! ? (opposed to Scripture, but held by multitudes of people on earth)
     
  13. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    Luke 16:19-31 is my expression of heaven, the rich man and Lazarus teaches the believers abode prior to the final judgment, "Comfort" Abraham's bossom, Wicked "Torment In Hell". You will note verses 30-31 they are dead, they have not received the glorified body yet.

    2 Corinthians 5:8 to be absent from the body, present with the Lord
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
  14. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    Pardon my interference but there is something you have missed.

    John 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

    Those described there as being "condemned already" have no resurrection hope. Now, I know your emotions are pushing your thoughts at the surprise of hearing that said, but what you do not understand is that those all resurrected, both the just and the unjust, are in the upper most part of Hades and that upper most part of Hades represents the memorial tombs or memorial graves mankind lay in once dead awaiting for God to remember them and resurrect them. Not all of those who die are considered as being in the memorial tomb or grave.

    King David felt at one point in his life like God had forsaken him and here is what he spoke to God:
    Psalms 88:4-5 "I am counted with them that go down into the pit: I am as a man that hath no strength: Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand."

    "Like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou (God) rememberest no more..."

    So there are indeed three groups, one of which once dead has no hope of ever being resurrected.

    It should move us to think more seriously about our need to avoid sin now that we know that.

    Here as follows David humbly recognized his unworthiness caused of sin and likened God's mercy to rescuing from that lowest Sheol wherein man is no more remembered by God:
    Psalms 86:13 "For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest Sheol."

    For those who may not know, Hades is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew Sheol.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
  15. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

    Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

    Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

    .
     
  16. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    I disagree with your memorial tomb theory...
    Luke 16:19-31 clearly teaches that all who die presently go to one of two places

    1. Righteous/Abrahams Bossom/Comfort

    2. Wicked/Hell/Torment

    I also disagree with your "Three Group" theory, the bible teaches of "Two Groups"

    1. Righteous/Name In Book Of Life

    2. Wicked/Name Not In Book Of Life
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
  17. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    I gave that a read. Thanks. Many of your conclusions match some of my thinking in this past on a lot of these things as well. So maybe it's finally getting close to the time for me to fully decide what is more likely. If I was going to put a percentage on it at this point, it might be something like this---75% chance you could be correct, thus making it only 25% chance I am. So I'm getting there, just not quite there yet.
     
  18. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Not what I asked though. :) We already know that the last day involves the resurrection of the believers. So that's not in dispute. So I'm looking for some text that plainly uses this same phrase 'the last day', and applies it to the resurrection of unbelievers as well.
     
  19. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    G3419 mnemeion -- from 3420; a remembrance, i.e. cenotaph (place of interment): KJV -- grave, sepulchre, tomb.

    Remember that from Strong's Greek Dictionary as I proceed.

    I pray you learn from this experience so as not to be so sure of your beliefs that you jump to defending them without investigation of the comments others make. Let us proceed:

    Just so that we do not forget, I already posted the following three texts:

    John 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

    Psalms 88:4-5 "I am counted with them that go down into the pit: I am as a man that hath no strength: Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand."

    Psalms 86:13 "For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest Sheol."

    Now let us see what else we can find:

    Are the following in graves?
    Psalms 83:9-10 “Do unto them as unto the Midianites; as to Sisera, as to Jabin, at the brook of Kison: Which perished at Endor: they became as dung for the earth.”

    Are the following in graves?
    Jeremiah 8:2 “And they shall spread them before the sun, and the moon, and all the host of heaven, whom they have loved, and whom they have served, and after whom they have walked, and whom they have sought, and whom they have worshipped: they shall not be gathered, nor be buried; they shall be for dung upon the face of the earth.”

    Are the following in graves?
    Jeremiah 9:22 “Speak, Thus saith the LORD, Even the carcases of men shall fall as dung upon the open field, and as the handful after the harvestman, and none shall gather them.”

    Are the following in graves?
    Jeremiah 16:4 “They shall die of grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth: and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcases shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.”

    Are the following in graves?
    Jeremiah 25:33 “And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.”

    Are the following in graves?
    Zephaniah 1:17 “And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.”

    Are the following in graves?
    Revelation 19:17-18 “And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.”

    While the following is Zophar the Naamathite, he knew what he was speaking about. Job 20:5 That the triumphing of the wicked is short, and the joy of the hypocrite but for a moment?
    6 Though his excellency mount up to the heavens, and his head reach unto the clouds;
    7 Yet he shall perish for ever like his own dung: they which have seen him shall say, Where is he?
    8 He shall fly away as a dream, and shall not be found: yea, he shall be chased away as a vision of the night.
    9 The eye also which saw him shall see him no more; neither shall his place any more behold him.

    Do you see what the problem is? You do not understand Sheol and Hades. In the Bible the word, “grave” or “tomb” is used to denote a place of rest while awaiting resurrection. And not everyone who has ever died is in a grave as all of the above quoted texts clearly show. Those not in graves (that place of remembrance) can be considered as in the lowest Sheol but that portion of Sheol is not considered as a place of remembrance or place of interment or a grave.

    Hope that helps clear up your confusion, after all, we want to keep our beliefs in harmony with the entire Scriptures and not just what we think harmonizes with the New Testament. Right?

    I will explain Luke 16:19-31 if you would like for me to do so.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
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  20. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Revelation 20:12....all the dead, great and small, standing before the Throne.....
    This will happen after the Millennium, when the thousand years have ended..... Revelation 20:7

    However the text doesn't say all the dead are resurrected, they remain dead, just symbolically standing before the Throne...Daniel 7:9-10 Then the Books were opened and Judgement commenced.
    Those whose names are in the Book of Life will receive Eternal bodies, Those whose names are not; will be consigned to the Lake of Fire.
     
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