Is there a difference between soul and spirit?

[ewq1938]

Hebrews 4
12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

"and of the joints and marrow"

Yep, the word of God is butchering people all over the place...or this is figurative language

This actually shows how united soul and spirit are that only the word of God could separate them...not that it does or has a purpose to...God is making a point here.

 

[akaDaScribe]

"and of the joints and marrow"

Yep, the word of God is butchering people all over the place...or this is figurative language

This actually shows how united soul and spirit are that only the word of God could separate them...not that it does or has a purpose to...God is making a point here.

I wondered about this long ago and endeavored to understand the difference between the soul and spirit. After reading this scripture, I realized it was not my place to distinguish and haven't tried to since.

 

[justbyfaith]

Again, the soul/spirit is basically our conscious mind...it dictates what we experience.

So our conscious mind can be divided in two? Hebrews 4:12.

 

[justbyfaith]

"and of the joints and marrow"

Yep, the word of God is butchering people all over the place...or this is figurative language

This actually shows how united soul and spirit are that only the word of God could separate them...not that it does or has a purpose to...God is making a point here.

I think it is saying that that's what it does.

 

[ewq1938]

I think it is saying that that's what it does.

Have your joints and marrow been separated yet?

 

[justbyfaith]

I've seen it happen to other people when I have ministered the word of God to them.

It was a physical reaction to the word of God where the guy's knee bone went out of joint.

 

[ewq1938]

I've seen it happen to other people when I have ministered the word of God to them.

It was a physical reaction to the word of God where the guy's knee bone went out of joint.

It's talking about a little more than that with the marrow being inside of our joint bones.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes; that is basically what happened; what is spoken of in Hebrews 4:12.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The spirit is also a person's mind, will, and emotions. There is no difference between our soul and our spirit.

Then why does Paul distinguish between the soul, spirit, and body in 1 Thessalonians 5:23? Paul mentions these three things in how we are to focus on keeping ourselves blameless until He returns. How do we do that? We keep our soul (mind, will, and emotions) blameless by focusing and acting upon God's Word. We keep our spirit body blameless by renewing our mind and putting on the new man. We should pray for God constantly to be renewed in heart and spirit more into aligning with what He wants us to do. Our bodies are to be blameless and free from physical defilements that can harm us physically. We should stay aware from eating blood, and or other harmful things like smoking, drinking, etc.

Also, why does Hebrews 4:12 say that the Word of God can divide asunder the soul and spirit if they are the same?

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12).​

Dividing asunder of soul and spirit.
That's what the Word of God says.

In other words, you cannot divide asunder the soul and spirit if they are the same thing. It would be illogical to say otherwise.

 

[GingerBeer]

The soul is not a body. It resides within a body.

1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This verse makes clear we have a body and a soul, so the soul is not a body.

(Genesis 2:7) then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul.

A body is not a soul but a body in which is the breath of life is a living soul.

 

[ewq1938]

Then why does Paul distinguish between the soul, spirit, and body in 1 Thessalonians 5:23?

Because we are made up of them.

Paul mentions these three things in how we are to focus on keeping ourselves blameless until He returns. How do we do that? We keep our soul (mind, will, and emotions) blameless by focusing and acting upon God's Word. We keep our spirit body blameless by renewing our mind and putting on the new man.

Our spirit is not a "spirit body". The Spirit is everything that the soul is.

We should stay aware from eating blood, and or other harmful things like smoking, drinking, etc.

Christ drank...so can we.

Also, why does Hebrews 4:12 say that the Word of God can divide asunder the soul and spirit if they are the same?

To show how "sharp" the Word is. It's an intentional exaggeration.

In other words, you cannot divide asunder the soul and spirit if they are the same thing. It would be illogical to say otherwise.

They are two things which are identically the same. They are united according to that same verse.

 

[ewq1938]

(Genesis 2:7) then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul.

A body is not a soul but a body in which is the breath of life is a living soul.

Soul in that verse is simply meaning a human being ie: a person.

Rev_6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


These people had died and this is before the bodily resurrection proving these are bodiless souls in heaven which are fully awake and alert and capable of communication and aware of Earthly and Heavenly events.


1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

These three things form a human being.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/soul

Word Origin and History for soul

"As a synonym for "person, individual, human being" (e.g. every living soul) it dates from early 14c. Soul-searching (n.) is attested from 1871, from the phrase used as a past participle adjective (1610s)."

"Soul" was an old English term that could be used in place of the word "person" or "human being".

It was not the same meaning as a "soul" as far as "soul and spirit" as in the invisible and intangible things within our human bodies. "Soul" therefore has more than one definition.

Same site also lists a long list of possible meanings of "soul"

noun

the principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in humans, regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body, and commonly held to be separable in existence from the body; the spiritual part of humans as distinct from the physical part.
the spiritual part of humans regarded in its moral aspect, or as believed to survive death and be subject to happiness or misery in a life to come: arguing the immortality of the soul.
the disembodied spirit of a deceased person: He feared the soul of the deceased would haunt him.
the emotional part of human nature; the seat of the feelings or sentiments.
a human being; person.
high-mindedness; noble warmth of feeling, spirit or courage, etc.
the animating principle; the essential element or part of something.
the inspirer or moving spirit of some action, movement, etc.
the embodiment of some quality: He was the very soul of tact.
(initial capital letter) Christian Science. God; the divine source of all identity and individuality.
shared ethnic awareness and pride among black people, especially black Americans.
deeply felt emotion, as conveyed or expressed by a performer or artist.
soul music.


The two that are most important to this discussion are:

"the spiritual part of humans regarded in its moral aspect, or as believed to survive death and be subject to happiness or misery in a life to come"
"a human being; person"

These are two very different types of "souls" and should never be conflated nor should one or the other be ignored in favor of the other meaning.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Because we are made up of them.

So then the soul and spirit are distinct then.

Our spirit is not a "spirit body". The Spirit is everything that the soul is.

Paul says clearly in 1 Corinthians 15:44 that there is a natural body and a spiritual body. So Paul disagrees with you.

Christ drank...so can we.

Christ drank the fruit of the vine (the crushed juice of grapes) and not blood.
When Jesus says we are to drink of His blood, He is speaking metaphorically of how we are to believe in His shed blood for the forgiveness of sins.

"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;" (Romans 3:25).

When Christ was telling us to eat of his flesh, He was also speaking metaphorically. For in John 4, Jesus says His meat (flesh) is to do the will of the Father. This means we are to also do the will of the Father by obeying the commands that come from Jesus Christ and His followers.

To show how "sharp" the Word is. It's an intentional exaggeration.

I do not believe it is an exaggeration. Of course your belief has to lead you to that conclusion, though. I just read and believe what it says plainly in Hebrews 4:12. The Word of God can literally divide asunder the soul and spirit because it puts to death our old man whereby we are then given a new spirit with new desires. Hence, why when we accepted Jesus as our Savior, we notice that there was a change inside of us.

They are two things which are identically the same. They are united according to that same verse.

No. It says dividing asunder soul and spirit.
If I said dividing the meat from the bone, you cannot say that the meat is the same thing as the bone. Yes, the meat and the bone once made up an entire animal, but the meat and the bone are not the same thing.

 

[GingerBeer]

Soul in that verse is simply meaning a human being ie: a person.

Rev_6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


These people had died and this is before the bodily resurrection proving these are bodiless souls in heaven which are fully awake and alert and capable of communication and aware of Earthly and Heavenly events.


1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

These three things form a human being.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/soul

Word Origin and History for soul

"As a synonym for "person, individual, human being" (e.g. every living soul) it dates from early 14c. Soul-searching (n.) is attested from 1871, from the phrase used as a past participle adjective (1610s)."

"Soul" was an old English term that could be used in place of the word "person" or "human being".

It was not the same meaning as a "soul" as far as "soul and spirit" as in the invisible and intangible things within our human bodies. "Soul" therefore has more than one definition.

Same site also lists a long list of possible meanings of "soul"

noun

the principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in humans, regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body, and commonly held to be separable in existence from the body; the spiritual part of humans as distinct from the physical part.
the spiritual part of humans regarded in its moral aspect, or as believed to survive death and be subject to happiness or misery in a life to come: arguing the immortality of the soul.
the disembodied spirit of a deceased person: He feared the soul of the deceased would haunt him.
the emotional part of human nature; the seat of the feelings or sentiments.
a human being; person.
high-mindedness; noble warmth of feeling, spirit or courage, etc.
the animating principle; the essential element or part of something.
the inspirer or moving spirit of some action, movement, etc.
the embodiment of some quality: He was the very soul of tact.
(initial capital letter) Christian Science. God; the divine source of all identity and individuality.
shared ethnic awareness and pride among black people, especially black Americans.
deeply felt emotion, as conveyed or expressed by a performer or artist.
soul music.


The two that are most important to this discussion are:

"the spiritual part of humans regarded in its moral aspect, or as believed to survive death and be subject to happiness or misery in a life to come"
"a human being; person"

These are two very different types of "souls" and should never be conflated nor should one or the other be ignored in favor of the other meaning.

The original post asked if there is a difference between soul and spirit, well if soul means x sometimes and spirit never means x then that is a difference but if soul means all of x,y,z,a,b,c...,w and spirit means only a,b,c,y,z then soul and spirit are not different because spirit is a perfect subset of soul. I am of the opinion that of the range of meanings given to spirit every one of them is also given to soul; except maybe for 'breath'.

 

[ewq1938]

I am of the opinion that of the range of meanings given to spirit every one of them is also given to soul; except maybe for 'breath'.

And now?

SOUL (psuche):
1) breath

 

[teknonoftheos]

Not according to Greek and Hebrew dictionaries (and English as well):

In John 12:27, Jesus said, "Now is my soul (psuche) troubled", and in John 13:21 it says, "Jesus was troubled in his spirit (pneuma) John 13:21

Here spirit and soul are used interchangeably. He was troubled in his soul, and he was troubled in his spirit.


Genesis 35:18King James Version (KJV)
18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

James 2:26King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.



Here they are used also interchangeably since the body is dead when the soul departs and the body is also dead when the spirit departs.

Keep in mind there isn't any actual difference in the definitions of soul and spirit in both Hebrew and Greek and even English. They are synonyms.




soul (sol) noun
1. The animating and vital principle in human beings, credited with the faculties of thought, action, and emotion and often conceived as an immaterial entity.
2. The spiritual nature of human beings, regarded as immortal, separable from the body at death, and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.
3. The disembodied spirit of a dead human being; a shade....
5. A human being: "the homes of some nine hundred souls" (Garrison Keillor).
6. The central or integral part; the vital core: "It saddens me that this network . . . may lose its soul, which is after all the quest for news" (M. Kalb).

spir·it (spîr¹ît) noun
1. a. The vital principle or animating force within living beings. b. Incorporeal consciousness....
2. The soul, considered as departing from the body of a person at death.
6. a. The part of a human being associated with the mind, will, and feelings: Though unable to join us today, they are with us in spirit. b. The essential nature of a person or group.
7. A person as characterized by a stated quality: He is a proud spirit.(11)

SOUL (nephesh):
1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
1b) living being
1c) living being (with life in the blood)
1d) the man himself, self, person or individual
1e) seat of the appetites
1f) seat of emotions and passions

SPIRIT (ruach)
1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
1a) breath
1b) wind
1c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
1c1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
1c2) courage
1c3) temper, anger
1c4) impatience, patience
1c5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
1c6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
1d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
1d1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
1e) spirit (as seat of emotion)
1e1) desire
1e2) sorrow, trouble
1f) spirit
1f1) as seat or organ of mental acts
1f2) rarely of the will
1f3) as seat especially of moral character(13)

So in Hebrew "soul" refers to "that which breathes" and to the mind, desire, and emotions.
And "spirit" refers to "that which breathes" and the part of us which experiences emotions and is responsible for "mental acts."

Thayer's Greek words for soul (psuche) and spirit (pneuma):


SOUL (psuche):
1) breath
1a) the breath of life
1a1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
1a1a) of animals
1a12) of men
1b) life
1c) that in which there is life
1c1) a living being, a living soul
2) the soul
2a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
2b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
2c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death....

SPIRIT (pneuma)
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
2a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
2b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
3a) a life giving spirit
3b) a human soul that has left the body
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
4a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.(14)



Thus in Greek "soul" refers to the animating principle which feels, desires, and can attain everlasting life with God.
And "spirit" is also the animating principle which feels, thinks, and decides. And notice once again, the use of the word soul to define spirit (twice in fact: 2b,3b). Only #4 for spirit gives so much as a hint the two might be distinct.

Again using the Strong's:




Spirit
G4151
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

Soul
G5590
psuche
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.


Spirit: "by analogy or figuratively a spirit" and "the rational soul"
Soul: "(by implication) spirit" and "the rational and immortal soul"

Same exact meanings.



Unfortunately scripture doesn't provide any reasoning why the two have their own names or why we need two of something that is essentially two of the same thing with no provided difference between them. It's kind of like having a two headed coin, the same on both sides yet one side is not the other side per se'.

Read this, then perhaps you will understand, http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2018/08/2...-word-spirit-the-identity-of-the-wind-of-god/ .

 

[GingerBeer]

The original post asked if there is a difference between soul and spirit, well if soul means x sometimes and spirit never means x then that is a difference but if soul means all of x,y,z,a,b,c...,w and spirit means only a,b,c,y,z then soul and spirit are not different because spirit is a perfect subset of soul. I am of the opinion that of the range of meanings given to spirit every one of them is also given to soul.

And now?

SOUL (psuche):
1) breath

Excellent, then soul and spirit mean the same thing. That's the answer then.

 

[InterestedApologist]

Not according to Greek and Hebrew dictionaries (and English as well):

In John 12:27, Jesus said, "Now is my soul (psuche) troubled", and in John 13:21 it says, "Jesus was troubled in his spirit (pneuma) John 13:21

Here spirit and soul are used interchangeably. He was troubled in his soul, and he was troubled in his spirit.

Or, he was simply troubled in both.

Genesis 35:18King James Version (KJV)
18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

James 2:26King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Here they are used also interchangeably since the body is dead when the soul departs and the body is also dead when the spirit departs.

I don’t see this as interchangeability between soul and spirit, but rather, simple affirmation that both are needed for the body to be alive.

Hebrews 4:12 would seem to indicate that soul and spirit are indeed separate, but very sophisticatedly linked:

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 

[The Times]

In John 12:27, Jesus said, "Now is my soul (psuche) troubled", and in John 13:21 it says, "Jesus was troubled in his spirit (pneuma) John 13:21

Here spirit and soul are used interchangeably. He was troubled in his soul, and he was troubled in his spirit.

Proof Texting can lead people astray when meaning-making of verses in scripture whilst ignoring the context in which a term is used. Terms can be used interchangeably to mean different things, but what sets them apart is the context in which they are used in.

Prooftexting (sometimes "proof-texting" or "proof texting") is the practice of using isolated, out-of-context quotations from a document to establish a proposition in exegesis. Such quotes may not accurately reflect the original intent of the author, and a document quoted in such a manner, when read as a whole, may not support the proposition for which it was cited.

The proposition of the OP is because spirit and soul are used interchangeably then there is no difference in the meaning-making of context that the terms are used in.

I will endeavor to lay this proposition to rest by firstly appealing to commence sense. Common sense has it that words can have a different meaning in the way they are used in the context of what the author is intending to communicate with his/her audience.

Let us use three witnesses Matthew, Mark, and Luke from scripture who are all citing Jesus as the authority in this pressing matter.

Firstly, let us consider Matthew and Mark.

Matthew 16:24-26
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and takeup his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Mark 8:34-37
And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

These two witnesses appear to be using for life and soul the word
◄ 5590. psuché ►
Strong's Concordance
psuché: breath, the soul

If we use common sense and logic we can quite easily rule out the OP proposition that because the terms are used interchangeably then there is no difference in meaning-making of context.

If we apply the same meaning for the term "psuche" then the paragraph is confusing at best and makes no sense at all. The entire paragraph as a whole loses its intended meaning, that is how can one lose their soul for Jesus in order to gain their soul?

The method by which the OP uses to prove his proposition is shown to be flawed when a reader firstly appeals to common sense and logic and secondly by the one scriptural example provided that uses the same term "psuche" four times within the paragraph, whereby it is easily discernable that it has an entirely different meaning-making in context.

 

[The Times]

My response to the question of the thread is there is a difference.

I will not stop here rather I will move on to the third witness who sheds light on how the term "psuche" is applied in context and what is the intended meaning when Jesus said "If you shall lose your "psuche" (soul) for my sake you will save your "psuche" (soul)".

We now look at what Luke has to report.

Luke 9:23-25
And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and takeup his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save hislife shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

We note that life or the loss of life for Jesus and his Gospel is implicitly using the term "psuche" for the act of biologically dying for Christ's sake and his Gospel. The term "psuche" according to Strong's definition has several meanings. Our challenge is to find the correct meaning in the context of one losing their life biologically speaking for Christ.

psuché: breath, the soul
Definition: (a) the vital breath, breath of life, (b) the human soul, (c) the soul as the seat of affections and will, (d) the self, (e) a human person, an individual.

It obviously is NOT implying losing THE SELF, but rather it is implicitly implying losing life biologically speaking which is related physiologically to the vital breath, our breath of life. This is NOT the Ruarch (Soul) which is the SELF but is the Nephesh that God breathed into Adam.

So the question that begs is what is being saved when one loses their life biologically for Christ's sake?

It cannot be Nephesh (spirit). Luke uses the proper term in the Greek autos: (1) self (emphatic). Autos is the term in Greek for the English term "it" in the above paragraph.

Now the meaning-making of the context appears in that Jesus is expressly stating that if anyone loses their life biologically, they will save THE SELF.

So THE SELF is the Soul of an individual that is preserved onto the coming of the Lord when he comes with his Angels to reward those who remained loyal to him onto the very end of their earthly lives. The term "psuche" appears to use a totally different meaning in context as it refers to THE SELF after the earthly body has biologically died and this distinguishes the Ruarch (soul) from the Nephesh (spirit).

As Jesus said do not fear those who can snuff out your Nephesh (spirit) but cannot kill the Ruarch (soul), that is THE SELF. (Matthew 10:28)

One more thing to ratify what is being communicated to the reader by Luke.

"For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself"

Himself is the term used by Luke in place of "psuche" that is used by the other two witnesses Matthew and Mark.

heautou: of himself, herself, itself
Definition: himself, herself, itself.

Himself points to the SELF, where the choice of which of the several meanings of "Psuche" we are to use is now a given.

psuché: breath, the soul
Definition: (a) the vital breath, breath of life, (b) the human soul, (c) the soul as the seat of affections and will, (d) the self, (e) a human person, an individual.

So if we are to rewrite the paragraph it would be correctly understood as follows.

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and takeup his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his
breath of life (Nephesh) shall lose it (The Self): and whosoever will lose his
breath of life (Nephesh) for my sake shall find it (The Self). For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose The SELF(ruarch)? or what shall a man give in exchange The Self (ruarch)?