IS THE WILL OF HUMANS CONTROLLED BY GOD?

[Si_monfaith]

Like Adam and Eve.

Redemption was predetermined even before they were created (1 Peter1:18-20).

 

[Si_monfaith]

So when a believer sins, do you believe somehow that this under the sovereign decreed will of the Lord? I don't think so. I believe it happens under His permissive will but it does not happen under His decreed will for anyone to sin as if that was His ultimate desire for their life. God may allow His creation to sin under His permissive will, but He does not desire for anyone to sin. This is why Calvinism is so easy to refute or to place on its own course of self destruction. Calvinism is simply not logically consistent with what we know about God and his goodness.

He does not desire for anyone to sin

Does God foreknow a person's sin from His eternity past?

 

[HTacianas]

Bible never says he exercised his will to refuse God. Instead the great wind, fish to swallow, fish to vomit, gourd, worm, east wind to dry up the hours were all predetermined by God.



So you mean to say God never foreknew from eternity Abraham's choice?

What God knows from eternity is not for me to say. I can only read what is written and draw conclusions from that.

There are some who believe in the strictest of predestination. But the text does not support that conclusion. There are some who believe in open theism. The text does not support that either.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

2 Timothy 3:16: "3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".

All scripture is for all God's people. Popes hid Scripture from people.

I am not in support of Catholicism or the pope; Besides, that really does not explain how you are taking Romans 9 out of context (Which is referring to Israel's false way of salvation that did not include the Messiah). Read it from that perspective and the chapter becomes more clear in what it is really saying. But you are free to believe in Calvinism (that was invented by John Calvin) that seeks to rip Romans 9 out of its context if you like.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Does God foreknow a person's sin from His eternity past?

I am not sure how answering this will help you. You believe there is no such thing as free will involving God. You need to accept what the Bible plainly teaches before answering such questions (without any Calvinistic bias).

Free Will in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If He doesn't take pleasure in the death of the wicked, why did the Holy Spirit record saying, "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their
heart, and be converted (John12:40)"?

You have to look at the whole counsel of God's Word and not just those verses you prefer to see.

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12).​

It says in this above passage that the wicked perish because they receive not the love of the truth that they might be saved. MIGHT be saved. There is a possibility that they MIGHT be saved. But because they received not the love of the truth, God will then send them a strong delusion to believe a lie because they had pleasure in unrighteousness (sin) vs. receiving the love of the truth.

Scripture also says,

"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." (Matthew 13:15).​

The above verse says that the people's heart is waxed gross, their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, LEST ("for fear that") (which also sounds like "unless") at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and be converted. You believe a conversion takes place before any understanding, etc. But this is not what Matthew 13:15 says. A person can first understand and see before being converted. The Scriptures say, "Repent and... be converted." (Acts of the Apostles 3:19). Statements like this should not exist in Scripture if things are as you say.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Not all Israelites were predestined (Romans 9:6).

All of Israel was to be a chosen nation that was separate from the rest of the nations.

"And what one nation in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, from the nations and their gods? For thou hast confirmed to thyself thy people Israel to be a people unto thee for ever: and thou, LORD, art become their God. " (2 Samuel 7:23-24).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If God kept abimelech from sinning (Gen 20:6), that simply is a proof that the human will isn't free.

God preventing somebody from doing something wrong one time does not mean that they do not have free will to do something wrong at another time or place. This is not an exhaustive truth. We know that people sin. If it was God's will for people to not sin, then why do we find other people in the world who sin? Did God want them to sin? According to Calvinism, this has to be the case because He chooses some to remain in their sins, and He chooses others to not be this way (even though no Calvinist really believes that the elect needs to overcome sin in this life). In other words, things like this in Calvinism are illogical and they seek to attack the true goodness of the Lord our God as revealed in the Bible. God does not want anyone to sin. 1 John 1:5 says there is no darkness in God. Neither does God tempt any man to sin.

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed." (James 1:13-14).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, why preach the gospel if Calvinism is true? People will be elected or chosen to salvation without hearing the gospel. But is this what we see in Scripture? No. For what happened in Acts 16 involving Paul, Silas, and the jailer?

The jailer asked Paul and Silas,
"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
(Acts of the Apostles 16:30).

Paul and Silas said,
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."
(Acts of the Apostles 16:31).​

If Calvinism was true, Paul and Silas would have said this to the jailer:

"Nothing" "You cannot do anything to be saved. God has to elect you or choose you first in order for you to be saved." "God has to convert your heart first before you can even understand, or believe the gospel." "So do nothing." "Wait for God to convert your heart first." ​

But is that what Paul and Silas said? No, most certainly not.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Not all Israelites were predestined (Romans 9:6).

Jesus desired Jerusalem to be gathered unto Him like baby chicks is gathered underneath the wings of it's mother, but THEY would not let Him.

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me."
(Matthew 23:37).​

"But YOU wouldn't let me."
Let that sink in.

This means the will of GOD is being thwarted here. God wanted them to be gathered, but THEY would not let the LORD to do so.

This is just one of many problems involving Calvinism we find when we read Scripture.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Not all Israelites were predestined (Romans 9:6).

Are the elect predestined?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Even before they sinned, redemption was predetermined (1Peter1:18-20).

I agree; but that is because God is omniscient, not because He used His will to make Adam sin.

 

[BNR32FAN]

In the bible God often asks people to carry out His plan. God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, He asked Moses to lead the Israelites, He asked Paul to help build the Church. Any of them could have said no.

Jonah said no and that didn’t work out very well for him lol.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Is the will of humans controlled by God?

No if God intended to control our will then all men would repent and be saved.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jonah said no and that didn’t work out very well for him lol.

Jonah could have still refused. What then? Would God force His legs to move and His mouth to speak?
If so, then where is such a thing ever shown in Scripture? Jonah still had a choice.

In fact, Jonah 3 disproves Calvinism. Jonah warned the Ninevites that they would be overthrown in 40 days and yet that did not happen because they sought forgiveness with God, and forsaken their evil ways. When God had witness that they forsaken their evil ways, He turned away from the Wrath and judgment He was going to bring upon them. The scenario of Judgment changed not by what God alone did, but by what they did. They were spared because they repented. God did not force them to repent because judgement was coming for them in 40 days unless they did repent.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God does not want men to sin because He is holy and He hates sin. If God elected some to be saved (in the Calvinistic understanding), then we would find that all people who accept Christ would find it impossible to sin. But this is in the case. Men of God can still stumble. This disproves Calvinism. God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). It's why we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

God can surely control certain events and prevent men from sinning in certain cases (if it fits His greater plan for good), but this is not a loss of their own free will to still sin at a later time (if God allows them to live). But make no mistake: God does not force His salvation and neither does He force us to be faithful to Him, either. The story of Jonah demolishes Calvinism. Just read Jonah 3. Jonah told the Ninevites that they were going to be overthrown in 40 days, but that did not happen. The Ninevites changed the scenario by their repenting and forsaking their evil ways.

Not at all Jonah teaches Calvinistic doctrine from start to finish
The great fish was Arminian, because when Jonah proclaimed salvation is of the Lord, the fish vomit him out.
You mistake anthropromorhic language for historical narrative.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

So when a believer sins, do you believe somehow that this under the sovereign decreed will of the Lord? I don't think so. I believe it happens under His permissive will but it does not happen under His decreed will for anyone to sin as if that was His ultimate desire for their life. God may allow His creation to sin under His permissive will, but He does not desire for anyone to sin. This is why Calvinism is so easy to refute or to place on its own course of self destruction. Calvinism is simply not logically consistent with what we know about God and his goodness.

God has only one will of decree.
Anything that comes to pass was decreed to come to pass.
Even the wicked men who crucified Jesus.
Acts2:23

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

If God kept abimelech from sinning (Gen 20:6), that simply is a proof that the human will isn't free.

Free will is a false ,carnal, philosophical notion.
Men have self will that is bound by sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Not at all Jonah teaches Calvinistic doctrine from start to finish
The great fish was Arminian, because when Jonah proclaimed salvation is of the Lord, the fish vomit him out.
You mistake anthropromorhic language for historical narrative.

I have no idea what you mean by that last sentence. Are you saying that the story of Jonah is metaphorical and not a real historical narrative that took place?