Is the USA the Paragon of Freedom?

[Nithavela]

No, my response isn't based on the irrational emotions or negative opinions concerning all mankind that you list. Actually, my response in general is based on my study of Social Science which teaches that the human race needs to keep anarchy at bay as part of enhancing survival potential via law enforcement.

Am I afraid of being eaten in the USA? No, what more often happens is getting mugged and murdered as my uncle was for a miserable sum of fifteen dollars, getting physically attacked on the street or on a public vehicle, as I was on a public Miami Florida bus because of my perceived race and ethnicity, or, as is becoming increasingly popular today, getting sucker-punched in the knock-out game by young USA men of lower socio economic persuasion who are politically-correctly described as being bored and therefore simply seeking excitement. That does concern me. But getting eaten? Never crossed my mind.

I still wonder why your country needs so many more men jailed than any other country to keep itself civilised. Do you have any idea?

 

[Radrook]

I still wonder why your country needs so many more men jailed than any other country to keep itself civilised. Do you have any idea?

All behavior has a reason and the reason for the crime scenario in the USA can be found in its history which affects the present social situation negatively. What I am about to say applies to all areas of the USA where poverty abounds and crime is statistically far higher than in the materially-prosperous Middle-class Anglo-American neighborhoods.

You see, In a country which abounds in riches beyond all others on Earth it is inevitable that those at the bottom who must observe as those on the top smugly and uncaringly enjoy life to its fullest, feel resentment and feel oppressed. If not by society of those who are in charge-the rich and in the USA the large middle class, then by the seeming injustice of destiny itself.

In poor countries the people can take solace in that the majority are sharing the same discomforts. But in the USA the large prosperous middle Anglo USA class is the one that predominates while the lower classes must look on helplessly. So the situations are not the same.

The African American statistically higher crime rate can be used as an example:

From an historical perspective, black slaves was not the brutally treated as cattle and systematically prevented from acquiring an education lest they feel entitled to a freedom celebrated annually by Anglo USA folks on the Fourth of July. That isn't ancient history and neither is the intense persecution which persisted until the 1960's under Jim Crow a system designed to keep the AAs in their low status place.

Such malicious, systematic denigration in order to keep the AA man down is blamed for present inabilities persistent problems which plague AA communities. So the frustration and the futility which is often encountered in striving to attain equal status with the seemingly-out-of reach Anglo prosperity often manifests itself in crime which is an effort to attain what is deemed otherwise inexorably and forever beyond law-abiding attainment.

The same but to a lesser degree applies to crime in all impoverished USA areas such as the white Appalachian regions and includes the Latino sections that might manifest a higher crime rate than the rest of the Anglo- USA prosperous regions. In short, frustration and the viewing of crime as the only way to proper beyond the glass ceiling which is perceived as unbreakable is the main cause.

So crime in the USA demands a tighter enforcement to keep the whole sordid phenomenon under control and that results in larger incarceration rates.


BTW
This all leads to the emergence of subcultures [of which I was a part once as a teen] which glorify violence and whose members can only gain prestige via demonstrating anti social behavior. In such sub-cultures being BAD becomes being GOOD and being GOOD might involve maiming or murdering somebody to prove it. So it becomes a vicious circle.

 

[Nithavela]

All behavior has a reason and the reason for the crime scenario in the USA can be found in its history which affects the present social situation negatively. What I am about to say applies to all areas of the USA where poverty abounds and crime is statistically far higher than in the materially-prosperous Middle-class Anglo-American neighborhoods.

You see, In a country which abounds in riches beyond all others on Earth it is inevitable that those at the bottom who must observe as those on the top smugly and uncaringly enjoy life to its fullest, feel resentment and feel oppressed. If not by society of those who are in charge-the rich and in the USA the large middle class, then by the seeming injustice of destiny itself.

In poor countries the people can take solace in that the majority are sharing the same discomforts. But in the USA the large prosperous middle Anglo USA class is the one that predominates while the lower classes must look on helplessly. So the situations are not the same.

The African American statistically higher crime rate can be used as an example:

From an historical perspective, black slaves was not the brutally treated as cattle and systematically prevented from acquiring an education lest they feel entitled to a freedom celebrated annually by Anglo USA folks on the Fourth of July. That isn't ancient history and neither is the intense persecution which persisted until the 1960's under Jim Crow a system designed to keep the AAs in their low status place.

Such malicious, systematic denigration in order to keep the AA man down is blamed for present inabilities persistent problems which plague AA communities. So the frustration and the futility which is often encountered in striving to attain equal status with the seemingly-out-of reach Anglo prosperity often manifests itself in crime which is an effort to attain what is deemed otherwise inexorably and forever beyond law-abiding attainment.

The same but to a lesser degree applies to crime in all impoverished USA areas such as the white Appalachian regions and includes the Latino sections that might manifest a higher crime rate than the rest of the Anglo- USA prosperous regions. In short, frustration and the viewing of crime as the only way to proper beyond the glass ceiling which is perceived as unbreakable is the main cause.

So crime in the USA demands a tighter enforcement to keep the whole sordid phenomenon under control and that results in larger incarceration rates.


BTW
This all leads to the emergence of subcultures [of which I was a part once as a teen] which glorify violence and whose members can only gain prestige via demonstrating anti social behavior. In such sub-cultures being BAD becomes being GOOD and being GOOD might involve maiming or murdering somebody to prove it. So it becomes a vicious circle.

So.. in short, america has a higher incarceration rate because the black's, the latinos and other poor factions of the country are envious of the white's money and use crime to try and get it?

Is that your argument?

 

[Radrook]

So.. in short, america has a higher incarceration rate because the black's, the latinos and other poor factions of the country are envious of the white's money and use crime to try and get it?

Is that your argument?

I am not saying that Anglo USA population doesn't have a proportionately higher crime rate than its European counterparts. I'm saying that the contribution of the other two non Anglo USA factors in the USA is significantly higher percentage-wise or proportionately. In order for me to determine how Anglo Americans stack by themselves against Europeans or the rest of the world without their USA minority group contribution I would need to factor in different variables.

2010. Inmates in adult facilities, by race and ethnicity. Jails, and state and federal prisons.[39] Race, ethnicity % of US population % of U.S. incarcerated population National incarceration rate
(per 100,000 of all ages)

White (non-Hispanic) 64% 39% of incarcerated population 450 per 100,000

Hispanic 16% 19% 831 per 100,000

Black 13% 40% of incarcerated population 2,306 per 100,000

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States

As you can see, non Latino whites make up 64 percent of USA population but only 39% of the incarcerated.

Latinos regardless of race make up 16% of USA population and 19% of incarcerated

Blacks or AAs make up 13% of USA population but make up for 40% of the incarcerated.

Of course these statistics don't take into consideration white collar crime that rarely results in incarceration or the discriminatory tendencies both on the police department level and judicial level which might tend to increase the numbers of minorities being incarcerated at a higher rate.

Here is a very informative article on that subject:

Is the USA more violent than Europe?
http://cogitansiuvenis.blogspot.com/2012/07/is-america-really-more-violent-than.html

 

[Jack of Spades]

It appears that they feel that the USA is the Paragon of freedom in the world. Is that really so?

It was so in the past. USA was a pioneer nation of democratic freedoms.

In modern times, USA has the basic democratic freedoms that all the democratic countries have. It's not special in that regard.

Some people say freedom is a free market: unchecked capitalism.

I personally think that there is little point in being free from the government, if that leads to being a slave of an employer. It doesn't really matter who the enslaver is, government or someone else, but the freedom gets lost either way if people who have power/money can rule unchecked.

If I had to choose between the two, I'd choose rather to be a slave of the government. The government is at least democratic, unlike the big companies etc.

 

[Radrook]

Humans left to their own devises wi

It was so in the past. USA was a pioneer nation of democratic freedoms.

In modern times, USA has the basic democratic freedoms that all the democratic countries have. It's not special in that regard.



I personally think that there is little point in being free from the government, if that leads to being a slave of an employer. It doesn't really matter who the enslaver is, government or someone else, but the freedom gets lost either way if people who have power/money can rule unchecked.

If I had to choose between the two, I'd choose rather to be a slave of the government. The government is at least democratic, unlike the big companies etc.

I agree, humans left to their own unsupervised devises tend to subjugate and victimize other humans who are less powerful. That is why a fair democratic, government supervision is essential.

About the once unique USA democracy, it seems as if certain USA Anglos are still under the strong impression that most of the world is under some type of tyrannical rule. So they tend to perceive any person whom isn't of Anglo heritage and who resides in the USA as some type of refugee who fled totalitarian, government persecution and who has to be constantly reminded that he must consider himself infinitely blessed to be allowed to live in the USA.

They do so with such an air of infinite social superiority that is exceedingly offensive. Especially when suddenly introduced completely out of context during a Bible study.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The rich, or just the "well-to-do" , in the untied states are more guilty
than the poor.(and will suffer for it).
This is not an excuse for the poor however.

 

[Radrook]

The rich, or just the "well-to-do" , in the untied states are more guilty
than the poor.(and will suffer for it).
This is not an excuse for the poor however.

Guilty of what? Excuse for what?

 

[Tull]

The rich, or just the "well-to-do" , in the untied states are more guilty
than the poor.(and will suffer for it).
This is not an excuse for the poor however.

That is complete nonsense with no biblical foundation,Christ died for all and those who repent and are saved vs those who are lost has no respect for wealth or a lack of it,each one has its own set of circumstances and challenges,the wealthy are challenged with not making their money a god and the poor are challenged with not becoming bitter and angry,covetous and resentful

The notion that poverty alone is a virtue sufficient to enter heaven and wealth alone is a vice sufficient to not enter heaven is a product of the liberal progressive church and its fixation with poverty in order to promote socialism and universal poverty and the advancement of the Godstate as the answer to all things,if you will notice they rarely if ever mention any of the other sins that damn mens souls....poverty is the new virtue sufficient in the absence of any other and there is no biblical support for it.....many OT men of God were wealthy but God was their God and not money.

 

[Tull]

Why excessive? Criminal behavior has to be controlled and the level of control is dictated by the level of criminal behavior.

Simply a matter of calling good evil and evil good....we were warned about it and now its here,if there is any justice let all those who support criminal behavior become its victims at some point......as they would say,its only fair.

 

[Armoured]

Simply a matter of calling good evil and evil good....we were warned about it and now its here,if there is any justice let all those who support criminal behavior become its victims of it at some point.

Convenient you get to be the arbiter of good and evil.

 

[Tull]

And why does that particular country have such a high crime rate, compared to other Western democracies? Perhaps the way criminals are treated breeds more criminals? Rehabilitation seems to work better than punishment.

Sure,lets make crime the pathway to success,the path may be littered with dead bodies and shattered lives but lets not forget that its the violent,angry,malcontented and chronically dysfunctional that make the world go round.....everyone else is just a working support structure for them.

 

[Armoured]

Sure,lets make crime the pathway to success,the path may be littered with dead bodies and shattered lives but lets not forget that its the violent,angry,malcontented and chronically dysfunctional that make the world go round.....everyone else is just a working support structure for them.

That's what "rehabilitation " suggests to you?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Y'SHUA HIMSELF, from ABBA YHWH,
stated plainly "WOE to you rich, for you have received your comfort..."
again and again,
as a warning .... .....

That is complete nonsense with no biblical foundation,

 

[Tull]

Y'SHUA HIMSELF, from ABBA YHWH,
stated plainly "WOE to you rich, for you have received your comfort..."
again and again,
as a warning .... .....

Is that the only warning in the bible,the rich Jesus is speaking to are those who of ill gotten gain who oppress and cheat others in order to gain their wealth,the bible honors the industrious working man or woman and condemns the slothful and lazy.....again the goal of the progressive left is universal poverty for all but the elite who will rule.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

.again the goal of the progressive left is universal poverty for all but the elite who will rule.

This is entirely expected, planned, and no problem for the followers of Y'SHUA.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

.... Excuse for what?

The sin of one group or person never excuses the sin of any other group or person.
(many on the forum have posted content the last few months
about not being as bad as the others..... in the inquisitions for example)

 

[Tull]

This is entirely expected, planned, and no problem for the followers of Y'SHUA.[no/QUOTE]

And cooperating

 

[Radrook]

The sin of one group or person never excuses the sin of any other group or person.
(many on the forum have posted content the last few months
about not being as bad as the others..... in the inquisitions for example)

True, but how does this relate to the constant sudden pop-goes-the-weasel jabberings about USA freedoms by USA Anglos directed at persons whom they mindlessly tag as a foreigners even though they speak perfect English completely out of context and when least expected? I mean, really? LOL! Democracies with freedom of speech they keep vehemently mentioning today come a dime dozen. I think that they are simply anti Non-Anglo or non-European immigration to the USA and want cause the non-Anglo person being addressed to feel unwelcomed in their USA so they pompously blabber.


This kind of totally gratuitous BS should be expected to significantly increase now that the Trumpians are in charge I suppose. Just had one come at me full steam with it at a Quaker meeting. I simply got up and left which of course was what he was prayerfully hoping for and I'm almost sure that once I was gone he felt he had done his USA Anglo patriotic duty.

Another USA Anglo recently, suddenly blasted me with the same blabber at a Catholic Church Saturday Bible Study which I also was forced to leave immediately for the sake of being left in left in peace.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

True, but how does this relate to the constant sudden pop-goes-the-weasel jabberings about USA freedoms by USA Anglos directed at persons whom they mindlessly tag as a foreigners even though they speak perfect English completely out of context and when least expected? I mean, really? LOL! Democracies with freedom of speech they keep vehemently mentioning today come a dime dozen. I think that they are simply anti Non-Anglo or non-European immigration to the USA and want cause the non-Anglo person being addressed to feel unwelcomed in their USA so they pompously blabber. This kind of BS should be expected to significantly increase now that the Trumpians are in charge I suppose. Just had one come at me full steam with it at a Quaker meeting. I simply got up and left which of course was what he was prayerfully hoping for and I'm almost sure that once I was gone he felt he had done his USA Anglo patriotic duty.

Another USA Anglo recently, suddenly blasted me with the same blabber at a Catholic Church Saturday Bible Study which I also was forced to leave for the sake of being left in left in peace.

I think you are just simply talking about humans / mankind/ that has not changed nor a changed life;
same as has always been all over the globe.
You definitely are blessed if you do not participate with carnal or worldly or disobedient groups,
but instead find (as rare as it is) individuals and/or groups that believe and live according to YHWH'S KINGDOM/ as the BIBLE says/ as Y'SHUA teaches and trains and leads HIS SHEEP.