“1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: ….. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” (John 17:1 and 5, KJV).
At John 17:5 we read; “the glory which I had with you before the world was.” We understand here that the Son had glory together with his Father, (Greek para alongside) or literally ‘By the side of thyself.’ And was even loved by the Father (in eternity past), before the world’s creation. Notice that the context for this passage in verse 1, is the word “Son,” of whom we read; “Father the hour has come glorify your Son.” So God the Father had glory with the Son before the creation of the world. The context for this passage is a dialogue between the very literal Son and his very literal Father. Jesus then prays for full restoration to the pre-incarnate glory and fellowship (Re John 1:1), which he enjoyed before the Incarnation (John 1:14) and he uses the imperative, which is a command in Greek to address his Father: ‘O Father glorify me.’ It’s difficult to explain how the Son can command the Father as a mere man who is not God!
This is not just an ideal pre-existence in the Father’s mind. But an actual, real and conscious existence at the Father’s side ‘para soi’ (with thee). ‘Which I had’ (heôi eichon) the imperfect active of echoô, I used to have, with attraction of case of heôn to heôi because of doxeôi). "Before the world was" (pro tou ton kosmon einai).” (This is a quote from: A.T. Robertsons’ Word Pictures of the New Testament taken from John 17).
The fact that the Son possesses this divine glory, is yet a further proof of his deity. For God (YHWH) says in the Old Testament that “My glory I will not give his glory to another” Isaiah 42:8. The obvious conclusion from these verses is that the Son is himself fully and cpompletely Yahweh God. The standard Oneness reply would be to claim that “Jesus’” glory is here being spoken of. This Jesus however is not the “Son of God,” who alone is the true Jesus of the Bible (2nd John 3). But the Jesus of Oneness Pentecostalism, who can, and sometimes does, exist as Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Essentially Oneness people will usually claim that (in their words), “Jesus the Father” had glory all alone with himself before the world was.
A second interpretation would be to claim that the Son did indeed possess this divine glory, even though he did not actually exist at that moment in time. This is because (this glory), was planned to be given to him as an act of God’s foreknowledge, just as the Son then existed, only in God’s mind in his foreknowledge. The main problem with this second explanation is that you can’t possess something if you don’t even yet exist yourself. For at Romans 8:29 God’s elect (the saved), are also said to have been foreknown, in God’s mind.
Apostolics might claim that the Son is indeed God, but only because he was foreknown in God’s mind before his actual creation at Bethlehem. The trouble with this claim is that it makes the Son a created being, who is foreknown just as we human beings also are in God’s mind. But this is not the Biblical account of the eternal Son of God, who exists before the creation (Hebrews 1:2), and is himself unchanging (Hebrews 13:8) and eternal (1st John 1:2). Furthermore the Son is addressed by masculine pronouns “he,” and masculine personal pronouns “him,” before his birth (John 1:2-3), and so he is not described as some mere thought existing in God’s mind would be; that is as an impersonal “it.”
At John 17:5 we read; “the glory which I had with you before the world was.” We understand here that the Son had glory together with his Father, (Greek para alongside) or literally ‘By the side of thyself.’ And was even loved by the Father (in eternity past), before the world’s creation. Notice that the context for this passage in verse 1, is the word “Son,” of whom we read; “Father the hour has come glorify your Son.” So God the Father had glory with the Son before the creation of the world. The context for this passage is a dialogue between the very literal Son and his very literal Father. Jesus then prays for full restoration to the pre-incarnate glory and fellowship (Re John 1:1), which he enjoyed before the Incarnation (John 1:14) and he uses the imperative, which is a command in Greek to address his Father: ‘O Father glorify me.’ It’s difficult to explain how the Son can command the Father as a mere man who is not God!
This is not just an ideal pre-existence in the Father’s mind. But an actual, real and conscious existence at the Father’s side ‘para soi’ (with thee). ‘Which I had’ (heôi eichon) the imperfect active of echoô, I used to have, with attraction of case of heôn to heôi because of doxeôi). "Before the world was" (pro tou ton kosmon einai).” (This is a quote from: A.T. Robertsons’ Word Pictures of the New Testament taken from John 17).
The fact that the Son possesses this divine glory, is yet a further proof of his deity. For God (YHWH) says in the Old Testament that “My glory I will not give his glory to another” Isaiah 42:8. The obvious conclusion from these verses is that the Son is himself fully and cpompletely Yahweh God. The standard Oneness reply would be to claim that “Jesus’” glory is here being spoken of. This Jesus however is not the “Son of God,” who alone is the true Jesus of the Bible (2nd John 3). But the Jesus of Oneness Pentecostalism, who can, and sometimes does, exist as Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Essentially Oneness people will usually claim that (in their words), “Jesus the Father” had glory all alone with himself before the world was.
A second interpretation would be to claim that the Son did indeed possess this divine glory, even though he did not actually exist at that moment in time. This is because (this glory), was planned to be given to him as an act of God’s foreknowledge, just as the Son then existed, only in God’s mind in his foreknowledge. The main problem with this second explanation is that you can’t possess something if you don’t even yet exist yourself. For at Romans 8:29 God’s elect (the saved), are also said to have been foreknown, in God’s mind.
Apostolics might claim that the Son is indeed God, but only because he was foreknown in God’s mind before his actual creation at Bethlehem. The trouble with this claim is that it makes the Son a created being, who is foreknown just as we human beings also are in God’s mind. But this is not the Biblical account of the eternal Son of God, who exists before the creation (Hebrews 1:2), and is himself unchanging (Hebrews 13:8) and eternal (1st John 1:2). Furthermore the Son is addressed by masculine pronouns “he,” and masculine personal pronouns “him,” before his birth (John 1:2-3), and so he is not described as some mere thought existing in God’s mind would be; that is as an impersonal “it.”
