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Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by RBPerry, Mar 14, 2021.

  1. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    A. I said Col 2. However, Galatians also refers to them.

    B. Galatians is completely about their efforts to be justified by the law after starting with the Spirit.

    He was comparing their previous slavish service to demons to their now slavish service to the law, but without understanding it.

    He is not condemning the holy days. But he is talking about their observance of them. Which is why he goes right on asking in the same chapter about if you want to be under the law, do you not hear what the law says.

    Anyone who reads the book of Galatians has a good handle on what it was about. And it was about their relying on the law rather than Christ.
     
  2. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    A few parting comments on things mentioned but not addressed:


    Isa 56:6 “And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it, and holds fast my covenant



    Bob posted this earlier. However, he didn't note a few items.


    a. The one who is mentioned is a foreigner.
    b. He joins himself to the Lord
    c. the foreigner holds fast the covenant.

    This is someone joining himself to the covenant, and observing the sabbath.

    It is similar to someone who is a foreigner but is circumcised so he may keep the passover.

    But why would he have to join the covenant in order to keep the Sabbath? Why wouldn't he just join the Sabbath keeping gentiles who Bob posits have been around since the beginning of the world?

    Because the Sabbath was given as a sign to Israel. And there is no mention of any human keeping the Sabbath until Exodus 16.



     
  3. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    The listing in Colossians is of the appointed times. This included the Sabbath. The long form of the appointed times and their sacrifices is found in Numbers 28-29.

    However, a shorter form is also found in Ezekiel:

    Eze 45:17 It shall be the prince's duty to furnish the burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the feasts, the new moons, and the Sabbaths, all the appointed times of the house of Israel: he shall provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings, and peace offerings, to make atonement on behalf of the house of Israel.

    In this case we know the summary statement includes the weekly Sabbath because he goes on through the rest of the chapter and the next to elaborate:

    Eze 46:1 “Thus says the Lord GOD: The gate of the inner court that faces east shall be shut on the six working days, but on the Sabbath day it shall be opened, and on the day of the new moon it shall be opened.
    Eze 46:2 The prince shall enter by the vestibule of the gate from outside, and shall take his stand by the post of the gate. The priests shall offer his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate. Then he shall go out, but the gate shall not be shut until evening.
    Eze 46:3 The people of the land shall bow down at the entrance of that gate before the LORD on the Sabbaths and on the new moons.
    Eze 46:4 The burnt offering that the prince offers to the LORD on the Sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish and a ram without blemish.
    Eze 46:5 And the grain offering with the ram shall be an ephah, and the grain offering with the lambs shall be as much as he is able, together with a hin of oil to each ephah.
    Eze 46:6 On the day of the new moon he shall offer a bull from the herd without blemish, and six lambs and a ram, which shall be without blemish.


    This is the closest parallel to Col. 2 and contains the same element. It is a listing of the appointed times.

    food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.


    new moon
    Feast
    sabbaths

    The feast in this case is in reference to the pilgrim feasts, correlating with the word "chag" in Hebrew. Some of the yearly appointed times were not feasts but solemn assemblies. The trumpets, Day of Atonement, etc. These are included in the category of Sabbath. They are appointed times, but not "chag" or feasts.

    The Weekly sabbath is also included in both Numbers and Ezekiel as it is also a sabbath, and one of the appointed times.

    And as already referenced, it is a sign with Israel of the God who sanctifies them, of their Creator and Redeemer from Egypt, and like the other appointed times has food and drink offerings associated with it.

    The plural in Sabbaths is simple something that happens in Greek with plural neuters, and we see other instanced where a sabbath day uses the plural in the Greek.

    But even if you translate it with the plural that is not an issue. Because it includes all the appointed times that were sabbaths.
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Because Romans 14 does it.

    "one man esteems one day above another while another man esteems every day... he who OBSERVES the day observes it for the LORD".

    To esteem one day above another does not mean esteem is a form of non-observance as the text makes clear "he who OBSERVES the day observes it for the LORD"

    The text is using it as being synonymous
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Agreed.

    So then in Acts 13 we see the two groups addressed this way as they meet for worship on Sabbath and hear gospel preaching

    "16 Men of Israel, and you who fear God, listen: 17 The God of this people Israel chose our fathers and made the people great during their stay in the land of Egypt, and with an uplifted arm He led them out from it....26 “Brothers, sons of Abraham’s family, and those among you who fear God, to us the message of this salvation has been sent.

    The "Covenant" in the OT for Gentiles is the one in Jer 31:31-34 -- the "new Covenant". The one and only Gospel of Gal 1:6-9 in all ages.




    That is the special case of a gentile who is not content to simply be attending worship on Sabbath but rather wants to participate in ceremonial feast days like Passover.

    The New Covenant was given "to Israel" according to Hebrews 8:6-12
    And the Sabbath was given to "mankind" according to Christ in Mark 2:27
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Not in Gal 4:8-10 where former pagan gentiles are "turning back again" to the worship of those things that are "not gods at all"

    Gal 4
    8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles, to which you want to be enslaved all over again? 10 You meticulously observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.



    No such comparison is seen in vs 8-10 -- rather -- and if condemning observance of even one Sabbath or Lev 23 annual feast day - were injected into the text then "defending EVERY Sabbath and Lev 23 annual feast day" service that we see in Rom 14 -- would not be possible in Rom 14 - but that is exactly what Paul does.

    Trying to wrench Gal 4:8-12 into a condemnation of the Sabbath commandment or any of the Lev 23 annual feast days - totally does not survive the defense of it in Rom 14.

    The only way this works is the former-pagans of Gal 4:81-11 are being condemned for "returning again" to pagan holy day observance while ALL the days of Rom 14 are firmly defending and condemnation only allowed for those that would object to that observance.

    Just as we see in 1 Corinthians - Paul is capable of addressing more than one topic in a letter. This is irrefutable.
     
  7. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

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    Hello Bob, the "gods" mentioned in Galatians 4:8 are not pagans gods but "elementary principles" mentioned in verse 9 which enslaved all sinful man (Jews &Gentiles )..see Ephesians 6:12..our struggle is against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms...
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Actually Paul goes into this same topic in more detail -- and clearly states that it is pagan gods in the case of gentiles newly converted to Christianity who used to be pagan. (as already pointed out here).

    We have context from Paul this topic of gentiles who were pagan but now turn to be Christian - so we need not imagine it into some novel interpretation when Paul has already told us what the background is for this - and how he views it.

    Those are hand-in-glove statements, perfectly aligned on that same topic, same author, "instructive" for context.
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Col 2 is an entirely different topic from the "return to paganism" of gentiles newly turned to Christianity - which Paul says is the case on Gal 4.


    In Col 2 the issue is "making stuff up" and judging others.

    1. Christ already showed that "making stuff up" was to be condemned in Mark 7:6-12
    2. Christ showed that "judging others" was condemned in Matt 7.

    So this is "no change" pre-cross vs post-cross.


    Col 2 is not an attempt by Paul to delete the scriptures. Rather Paul condemns the idea of making stuff up that is not in scripture at all - where the only source/authority is "man".

    Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,
    19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.


    Col 2
    20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.
    .(NKJV)


    Here is a great example of not condemning food or drink, or new moon or any such thing... but rather condemning judging others:

    Col 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

    We know there were shadow types, feasts and animal sacrifices that were shadows of things to come "Christ our Passover has been sacrificed" 1 Cor 5 - and that the animal sacrifices and offerings ended at the cross Heb 10:4-12 -- but Paul is not condemning them in Col 2 -rather he is condemning the judging.

    No doubt that Col 2 is talking about "Real shadows" in some cases - in the Word of God - like "new moons" - not at all something "invented by zealous Jews" but rather the "Word of God". And so Paul condemns judging others - but does not condemn eating, or drinking or new moons, at least not in Col 2.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
  10. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Bob, I think you don't have to look elsewhere to find what "gods" Paul is referring to in Galatians 4:8, but keep on reading to the next verse Galatians 4:9 for the answer...

    Paul preached the Gospel throughout the Gentiles regions to both Jews and Gentiles as we read in the book of Acts..

    Galatians 4:8..Formerly, when you did not know God, you were "slaves" to those who by nature are not gods.

    Verse 9..But now that you know God or rather known by God, how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces?
    Do you wish to "enslaved" by them all over again?

    In 1Corinthians 8:5 Paul states there are so-called "gods" in heaven and on earth..

    I think the "gods" Paul is addressing here are "gods" of the "heavenly realms" or "the spiritual "forces" of evil in the heavenly realms (Ephesians 6:12)..

    Anyone who sinned are slave to sin...John8:34




     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Actually Paul goes into this same topic in more detail -- and clearly states that it is pagan gods in the case of gentiles newly converted to Christianity who used to be pagan. (as already pointed out here).

    1 Cor 8
    5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. 7 However, not all people have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.

    We have context from Paul this topic of gentiles who were pagan but now turn to be Christian - so we need not imagine it into some novel interpretation when Paul has already told us what the background is for this - and how he views it.

    Gal 4
    8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles, to which you want to be enslaved all over again? 10 You meticulously observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

    Exegesis demands that we view cases where the same author addresses the same topic - and so I tend to find 1 Cor 8 and Gal 4 to be very "instructive" when it comes to how Paul views the condition of newly converted gentiles who are former-pagans.

    I agree and we notice in that 1 Cor 8 chapter that Paul addresses both Jew and gentile converts and shows how the prior religious faith of each comes into play when they interact on matter of faith and practice. That contrast helps us understand the "risk" that gentiles faced in "turning back again" to some pagan practices.

    Gentiles would not be "turning back again to keeping Passover" -- and Paul would not be condemning the Word of God as a form of paganism.

    "anyone who sins is a slave to sin" Romans 6 - but that general theme is not what Paul is zeroing in on in Gal 4 with newly converted gentiles "turning back again" to some paganism.

    ================================

    And when you combine this with the Romans 14 ABSOLUTE defense of ANY of the holy days of the Bible - where Paul flat out condemns anyone that would dare question/judge/condemn someone who choose to "observe every day" in that list of holy days.. it then becomes impossible to wrench the text of Gal 4 into a condemnation of a gentile that wanted to keep feast of first fruits or Sabbath.
     
  12. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

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    Pagans gods are mainly have "images" either, calf, birds or any carved image of any form...(or Idol)

    The "gods" Paul is addressing in Galatians 4:8 are "spiritual forces of evil" in which has no image or cannot see but they are in control of all men eg Sin

    That is why the only way to expose them (evil forces) is through the law (power of Sin is in the law)..

    So turning away from the Gospel to observe old covenant law and Jewish rituals is what Paul is concerned about..read Paul testimony in Philippians 3: 3-9...in which he says all the things that he gained by following the law etc he considered them "garbage" but to know Christ is what is all about..not observe special days etc..

    Galatians 4:17..these people are zealous to win you over but for no good (reference to Jewish leaders)...

    So Paul is speaking to both Jews and Gentiles who used to follow Jewish religion...
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    or more likely they are the exact same gentiles-worshiped-false-gods fact of society as in Corinth. The issues faced by gentile converts -- occurred all across the regions beyond Jerusalem.

    So then Gal 4:8-12 is not referring to the teaching of scripture as paganism - but rather the pagan gods of paganism - as pagan.

    Gentiles in Galatia had no way to " turning again to the old covenant with Israel and their former practice of Jewish rituals" - because they were "former pagans" not "former Jews".

    I think this part is clear to a lot of readers.
     
  14. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

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    Always appreciate your time to reply since I can see you're busy responding to other posters...

    I can see why you or others think that those whom Paul are speaking to in Galatians 4 are Gentiles pagans only because of verse 8 (Galatians 4:8)..

    (Paul first preached the Gospel across Gentiles regions in Jewish Synagogues to both Jews and Gentiles converts as in the book of Acts) many Jews and Gentiles believe his message and follow Paul's teaching, these were the first Christians across the regions..same here in Galatia.

    When Paul says in;
    Galatians 4:8 "Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods"..

    This is the same thing Jesus was saying to Pharisees or Teacher of the law..eg: In John 8:19 when the Pharisees ask Jesus where is his Father..

    John 8:19...then they asked Him, "where is your Father?
    "You don't know me or my Father" Jesus replied. If you know me you would know my Father also"...

    Paul in Gal 4:8 put it to the believers who used to follow Jewish rituals ie, observing special days, sabbath days etc like the Pharisees that by any means indicated that they know God by observing special days etc but rather they can only know God by believing in the Gospel of Jesus he proclaimed..

    "those who are nature "not gods"as in last part of (Galatians 4:8) is reference to evil forces or principles" verse 9 that affects all of us mankind even us today...
    Romans 3:9....Jews and Gentiles alike are All under the Power of Sin..
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    True - but as we see in Acts 13 not all the gentiles that Paul converted were already believers in God.

    42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. 43 Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who were speaking to them and urging them to continue in the grace of God.

    44 The next Sabbath nearly all the city assembled to hear the word of the Lord. 45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming. 46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first. Since you repudiate it and consider yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us,

    ‘I have appointed You as a light to the Gentiles,
    That You may bring salvation to the end of the earth.’”

    48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed. 49 And the word of the Lord was being spread through the whole region. 50 But the Jews incited the devout women of prominence and the leading men of the city, and instigated a persecution against Paul.

    The "Whole city" was not a city of already-believing gentiles. They were pagans getting converted by gospel preaching as we also see for 1 Cor 8 and Gal 4:8-10

    Compare that to --

    Rom 3:1 "Then what advantage does the Jew have? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First, that they were entrusted with the actual words of God.

    Rom 2 - is the great "Jew first and also to the Gentiles" - chapter.

    Acts 21: 8 And the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard about them, they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to abandon Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 So what is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 Therefore, do as we tell you: we have four men who have a vow upon themselves; 24 take them along and purify yourself together with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and then everyone will know that there is nothing to what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also conform, keeping the Law.

    Your interpretation of Gal 4 into this makes it " all will know that you yourself worship the elemental things of this world that are no gods at all" - as if Bible religion were some form of paganism.

    In Gal 4:8-10 the "fact" that condemns them - is the mere "observance" of the days... observing even one is condemning in Gal 4:8-10.

    By contrast in Acts 21 not only is it not condemned it is viewed as faithfulness to God and also in Rom 14 it is not even to be questioned by anyone who sees them esteeming a day -- rather it is "observed unto the LORD" and beyond question.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  16. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

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    Yes agreed not all gentiles believers that Paul converted were already believers in God..so as in the case of Gentiles in Galatia..

    Paul put both Jews and Gentiles believers in regards to their knowledge of God by the Gospel he preached Not because someone is a Jews follow Jewish rituals or a Gentiles means one has any advantage over the other rather they are all slaves by evil ("spiritual forces" )..in my opinion in Galatians 4:8,9..

    Since you quote Romans 3:1-3 which Paul said the Jews have an advantage over Gentiles due to the facts that the mystery of God's words were given to the Jews...

    But the Jews still commits sins or unfaithful to God even having the Words of God given to them..

    So, Paul conclude in Romans 3:9 that the Jews has no advantage over Gentiles in regards to knowing God...
    Both Jews and Gentiles alike are All under the Power of Sin..Romans 3:9..


    Also As you pointed out in Acts 13:45 when the whole city gather to listen to the word of the Lord through Paul the Jewish leaders were jealous and began to contradict what Paul says...

    Acts 23:45..when the Jews saw the crowds they filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on them..

    So we can see the main opponent of the Gospel message were the Jewish leaders..

    Let see who was trying to lead the believers in Galatia away from the Gospel.. (Galatians 4:17,18)

    Galatians 4:17,18..."those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to allienate you from us, that you may have seal for them"..

    Who do you think are these people who are trying to win the believer’s over from the Gospel? I don't see this as pagan leaders but Jewish leaders...

    No, my interpretation of Galatians 4 is that the real enemy or "gods" out there in the world are " evil spiritual forces" that control most of our "flesh" and it desires..

    Ephesians 6:12...that we are not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against rulers, against authorities, against the power of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms...
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    I don't reject your point that "all have sinned" both Jews and gentiles and all need salvation. "every mouth... all the world" Rom 3:19-20.

    My point is that "the details" in Gal 4:8-10 point to gentiles converted to Christianity from paganism and the worship of those things which are not god at all.. who then "return again" to those pagan practices and the proof in Gal 4 - is the observance of the days alone. That alone serves to condemn.

    By contrast in Rom 14 no condemnation at all is tolerated for the observance of the Lev 23 annual holy days.

    Neither Gal 4:8-10 or Rom 14 are dealing with the 10 Commandments or the Sabbath Commandment which is a bible detail admitted to by Bible scholars in all major Christian denominations (as noted earlier.) :)
     
  18. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Your response here.
    I have not met any Messianic that believe differently to what I just shared with you in the linked post you are quoting from. If you believe that the Apostles practiced the old covenant laws for remission of sins and animal sacrifices perhaps you can provide some scripture for your view? I cannot see any.

    That does not mean when they did not know any better after the resurrection at time they didn't do these things as there was a transitional period as the disciples continued to learn from the scriptures in regards to the fulfillment of the old covenant laws with the new covenant based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6. Keep in mind the disciples of Jesus when he was crucified and even after His resurrection were in shock as they still believed Jesus to be the promised Messiah to deliver Israel as the conquering King which was not the reason for first His coming *Acts of the Apostles 1:6.

    So no an understanding of the new covenant took some time as the Apostles searched the scriptures to better understand Christs role and the application of the old and new covenants was always transitional according to the scriptures. Application of Acts 15 we see as further evidence that the understanding of the scriptures in relation to the old and new covenants at the time is transitional.

    Your post here however seems to miss the point of the full post you are quoting from that I provided earlier though and that is the new covenant shadow laws of the old covenant for remission of sins are now fulfilled in Christ and no longer a requirement for Christian living while the 10 Commandments according to the new covenant is the standard of sin when broken and righteousness when obeyed (1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; Psalms 119:172). According to James if we break anyone of Gods' 10 commandments when God gives us a knowledge of the truth of his Word and re disregard it we stand guilty before God of sin in James 4:17; James 2:10-11. This of course includes God's 4th commandment Sabbath commandment that is one of God's 10 commandments according to Exodus 20:8-11.

    Hope this helps
     
  19. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    ROMANS 14:2,3,5,6,14,17,20

    It is very clear by reading the chapter and subject matter of Romans 14 that it has nothing to do whatsoever with God's 4th commandment Sabbath as there is no mention of God's Sabbath in this chapter and there is no scripture in this chapter discussing the Sabbath. The only way to have the Sabbath in Romans 14 is to read it into the chapter. Some call this practice eisegesis.

    The subject matter is over eating and not eating on days that men esteem over other days and judging others in this regards not what days that God esteems. We should also note that the scriptures also tell us that the things that men esteem are an abomination in Gods' eyes *Luke 16:15.

    There are many kinds of fasting in the bible from full fasts to partial fasts (doing without certain types of foods). You can find out about biblical fasting from the Jewish Encyclopedia that has a good article on it (linked). All the fast listed are to certain days as well as the individual having the right to fast on any other day they wish to fast on.

    So the subject matter is not the Sabbath read into one scripture from the whole book of Romans but to eating and not eating or only eating vegetables on days that men esteem over other day and judging others in this regards. Some are of the view that Romans 14 is in regards to what Paul discusses in Corinthians about not eating certain foods sacrificed to idols which could be one view and the subject matter of Romans 14 seems to link to this.

    The New Testament writers referred to two concepts of unclean, using different Greek words to convey the two meanings. Unclean could refer to animals God did not intend to be consumed as food (listed in Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14). Unclean could also refer to ceremonial uncleanness.

    In Romans 14 Paul uses the word koinos, which means “common” (W.E. Vine, Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1985, “Unclean,” p. 649). In addition to the meanings of “common” and “ordinary” (see Acts 2:44; Acts 4:32; Titus 1:4; Hebrews 10:29), the word also applied to things considered polluted or defiled. This word, along with its verb form koinoo, is used in Mark 7:2, Mark 7:15-23, where it obviously refers to ceremonial uncleanness.

    Koinos and koinoo appear throughout the New Testament to refer to this kind of ceremonial uncleanness. Something could be “common”—ceremonially unclean—even though it was otherwise considered a scripturally clean meat.

    An entirely different word, akathartos, is used in the New Testament for those animals Scripture specifies as unclean. Both words, koinos and akathartos, are used in Acts 10, where Peter distinguished between the two concepts of uncleanness by using both words in Acts 10:14.

    When Paul said in Romans 14:14 that “I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean [ koinos, or ‘common’] of itself,” he was making the same point he had made earlier to the Corinthians: Just because meat that was otherwise lawful to eat may have been associated with idol worship does not mean it is no longer fit for human consumption. As seen from the context, Paul wasn’t discussing biblical dietary restrictions at all.

    Paul goes on to state in Romans 14:20 that “all food is clean” (NIV). The word translated “clean” is katharos, meaning “free from impure admixture, without blemish, spotless” (Vine, “Clean, Cleanness, Cleanse, Cleansing,” p. 103).

    “Clean” meats as such aren’t addressed in the New Testament, so there isn’t a specific word to describe them. Katharos is used to describe all kinds of cleanliness and purity, including clean dishes (Matthew 23:26), people (John 13:10) and clothing (Revelation 15:6; Revelation 19:8-14), “pure” religion (James 1:27), gold and glass (Revelation 21:18).

    Realize also that, in both Romans 14:14 and Romans 14:20, the word food or meat doesn’t appear in the original Greek, but was inserted by later translators. No specific object is mentioned relative to cleanness or uncleanness. The sense of these verses is merely that “nothing [is] unclean [ koinos: common or ceremonially defiled] of itself,” and “all is clean [ katharos: free from impure admixture, without blemish, spotless].”

    Paul’s point is that association of food with idolatrous activity had no bearing on whether the food was inherently suitable or unsuitable for eating. Understood in its context, Romans 14 does not convey permission to ignore the biblical laws as to which meats are clean or unclean.

    Let's look at the detail a little further in the next posts to follow.
     
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  20. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Let's now look at the chapter in detail and look at the subject matter so there is no guessing what the chapter is talking about like some are doing here.

    ROMANS 14:1-22

    [1], Him that is weak in the faith receive you, but not to doubtful disputations.
    [2], For one believes that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eats herbs.
    [3], Let not him that eats despise him that eats not; and let not him which eats not judge him that eats: for God has received him.
    [4], Who are you that judge another man's servant? to his own master he stands or falls. Yes, he shall be held up: for God is able to make him stand.
    [5], One man esteems one day above another: another esteems every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
    [6], He that regards the day, regards it to the Lord; and he that regards not the day, to the Lord he does not regard it. He that eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he that eats not, to the Lord he eats not, and gives God thanks.
    [7], For none of us lives to himself, and no man dies to himself.
    [8], For whether we live, we live to the Lord; and whether we die, we die to the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
    [9], For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
    [10], But why do you judge your brother? or why do you set at nothing your brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
    [11], For it is written, As I live, said the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
    [12], So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
    [13], Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumbling block or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
    [14], I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteems any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
    [15], But if your brother be grieved with your meat, now walk you not charitably. Destroy not him with your meat, for whom Christ died.
    [16], Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
    [17], For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
    [19], Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things with which one may edi
    [20], For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eats with offense.
    [21], It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby your brother stumbles, or is offended, or is made weak.
    [22], Have you faith? have it to yourself before God. Happy is he that comdemns not himself in that thing which he allows.
    [23], And he that doubts is damned if he eat, because he eats not of faith: for whatever is not of faith is sin.

    From a quick reading of the above anyone can see that ROMANS 14 is talking about eating and not eating connected to days that men esteem over other days, not what days God esteems. The things that men esteem are an abomination in God's eyes. LUKE 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God

    There is no mention in all of ROMANS 14 of God's 4th commandment of any of God's 10 commandments. Your reading into the scriptures something it is not talking about.

    SOME POINTS TO CONSIDER IN ROMANS 14:1-23


    [1] the days spoken of are associated with eating/drinking, not eating/not drinking.
    [2] the matter is over those 'weak' and 'strong' in faith concerning eating/drinking and days to do and not do those things on

    [3] the context deals with "One man esteemeth", and not what God esteems (Isaiah 56:1-8, 58:13; Psalms 89:34) as permanent and so, and God's word is clear about what men esteem: Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. The Jews also continually argued over which were better days to do this thing or that thing, like fasting, feasting, etc: [Matthew 9:14; Mark 2:18; Luke 5:33, 18:12 KJB or were scared to eat food offered to idols]

    [4] the words for sabbath is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans
    [5] the words of the seventh day is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans
    [6] the words for the Lord's day is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

    [7] Romans 14 is in the context of Romans 13, which directly cites the latter (2nd) table of the Ten Commandments, for love to neighbour, which is also found in Leviticus 19:17-18, in the context of sin and the Ten Commandments

    [8] Romans 15 is the other end, and when combined with 1 Corinthians 8-10, the context is clear that the sabbath of the LORD thy God (Exodus 20:8-11) is not in view in the least, and is sustained by the rest of Paul in Romans by his statements on the eternal spiritual, holy, just and good Law (Exodus 20:1-17) of God, which identifies what sin is (Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

    [9] the entire context of Romans 14 is to do nothing (even if allowed normally, yet not under special circumstances) to cause others to sin: Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

    [10] Paul never contradicts himself, and Paul's writings are scripture (2 Peter 3:16), and scripture cannot be broken, John 10:35) and does not teach transgression of God's Law (Exodus 20:1-17) at any point:

    Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
    Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
    Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
    Romans7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

    [11] the words for "law", "commandments" are never used in Romans 14
    [12] Paul in numerous places lists and upholds every single one of the Ten Commandments in the NT, including the 4th Commandment (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11) in Hebrews 3-4, etc.

    [13] Romans 14 is about excluding those things which were "doubful disputations", and not a single one of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17) were ever doubtful or to be disputed in any place in all of scripture (KJB), for the Commandment of God are "sure" (Psalms 111:7).

    [14] the words for "covenant/testament" are never used in Romans 14
    [15] the words for 'first [day] of the week' are never used in Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

    [16] none of the 'Sunday' (first [day] of the week) churches use Romans 14 to teach that I may ignore the day they gather on, even though that day is not sanctified by God in any way what so ever in scripture (KJB), and is never called "the Lord's day" in scripture, neither is it "the seventh day the sabbath of the LORD thy God".

    [17] nobody uses Romans 14 to teach I can simply stop eating/drinking on every day
    [18] anyone who quotes Romans 14, has in mind 'restrictions', rather than allowances

    ..............

    CONCLUSION: Nothing about God's 4th commandment in there at all. The scriptures are talking about food connected to days (eating and not eating (fasting) on days men esteem over other days. Not what days God esteems and judging others. The things that men esteem are an abomination in God's eyes. LUKE 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. There is no mention in all of ROMANS 14 of God's 4th commandment or any of God's 10 commandments. Your reading into the scriptures something it is not talking about.

    Hope this helps.
     
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