Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox

[Cis.jd]

1. We also think the Mormon doctrine is in error that states that Jesus was simply an Archangel named Michael before the incarnation - and not what He really was - which is infinite God the Son second person of the Trinity. We have that debate with Mormons from time to time - including on CF..

Obviously, yes. They are in error, but as everyone else, they don't think so. When you look at a Mormon site, you'll see their statements of faith and they have all these Bible verses that they claim support their beliefs. They've also prepared themselves to defend them. If they considered historical academics, the traditions that where kept through out the history of the church, they would know their interpretation is in error just based on the facts. The apostles never passed this down, there is no evidence only counter evidence that they did.

This is the error that many modern protestant denominations such as SDA make. The apostles never passed down to keep the Sabbath/saturday only worship as the 10 commandments say because any spiritual necessities has changed because of Christ. The only time you'll historically find that Christians performing Saturday worship mandatorily is when the SDA came in, which is past 1500 years after early Xhristianity.

 

[RBPerry]

1. None of that applies to Adventists.
2. No additions or changes to the Bible are made by Adventists.

If we had to discount all Christian/Charismatic/Pentecostal groups that claimed any sense of prophecy and had to reject all witness/testimony of atheist and Muslims if they claimed to have a direct encounter with an Angel or Christ ... it would be a much small CF forum.

I for one would never imply the Adventist have attempted to add to the bible. The problem is prophesies that are not consistent with scripture.
For me and with my background anything they deemed one shouldn't do they considered sin. There is a big difference between sin and someone doing something that isn't in their best interest.

 

[RBPerry]

The only time you'll historically find that Christians performing Saturday worship mandatorily is when the SDA came in, which is past 1500 years after early Xhristianity.

There were actually a few Baptist groups that got on the Saturday band wagon. This all came about through the "great awakening or holiness movement".
If the Saturday issue was something God wanted dealt with He wouldn't have waited fifteen hundred years.

 

[RBPerry]

This is even solidified in Acts when the Apostles don't require Gentile converts to become circumcised, there is absolutely 0 mention of sabbath or dietary laws.

With all due respect, there is mention of the Saturday sabbath, Col 2:13-16, also regarding foods, Acts 10:11-15. Mathew 15:11-18

 

[PeterJames0510]

While I'm not that sold on SDA, I *must* say - they have excellent END time materials. I don't agree with their end time materials, but often wish us dispensationalists came up with as quality video as the SDAers do:

 

[dqhall]

My questions are based on my SDA education during the 1960s and early 70.

The SDA church was based a lot on Ellen G Whites dreams or visions

The SDA insist that Saturday is the only day that can be observed as a sabbath day.

The SDA teach that references to wine in the bible is actually grape juice.

The SDA teach that drinking alcohol, coffee, tea is unhealthy therefore a sin.

The SDA teach that eating meat is unhealthy and therefore is a sin. Especially pork products.

The SDA teach that eating eggs, butter, and milk is unhealthy (based on Mrs. Whites dreams)

The SDA teach that women should not wear makeup or jewelry.

Most SDA will not become involved with other Christian denominations.

Most SDA will disassociate themselves from anyone that leaves the denomination and joins another denomination or church outside of the SDA.

The SDA has been extremely critical of the Catholic church.

The SDA denomination was founded in 1863 but the movement started in the early 1830s. Ellen G White’s dreams and teaching were the main motivating factor for the foundation of the SDA.

Today we also have the reformed SDA denomination and I haven’t studied the differences, but it is just another split of denominations.

I would greatly appreciate anyone involved in the SDA denomination especially Elders or theologians to comment as well at other theologians and pastors.

My background, seven years of SDA schools and four years at Loma Linda (SDA college). Left the SDA denomination in 1974 so I’m not current on present day SDA teachings.

I think Ellen G. White was blessed with some wisdom about nutrition such as is not found in the Bible. The Seventh Day Adventist community in Loma Linda is one of the few places in the world where as many people live to be 100 years old. Someone wrote a book about the Blue Zones where there is a higher percentage of people living to be 100, Loma Linda is a Blue Zone. I worked with a Seventh Day Adventist crew when I was in my early twenties. I attended Sabbath service in an SDA church on Saturday. This particular group seemed obsessed with the books of Daniel and Revelation, eventually I left. Years later I reread Daniel and found I like part of it. Red meat is a carcinogen. A diet high in fat and cholesterol may lead to premature heart attacks.

I remember some of the Seventh Day Adventists befriended me. I do not hate them. They may read the New Testament same as any other Christian fellowship.

 

[Tree of Life]

My questions are based on my SDA education during the 1960s and early 70.

The SDA church was based a lot on Ellen G Whites dreams or visions

The SDA insist that Saturday is the only day that can be observed as a sabbath day.

The SDA teach that references to wine in the bible is actually grape juice.

The SDA teach that drinking alcohol, coffee, tea is unhealthy therefore a sin.

The SDA teach that eating meat is unhealthy and therefore is a sin. Especially pork products.

The SDA teach that eating eggs, butter, and milk is unhealthy (based on Mrs. Whites dreams)

The SDA teach that women should not wear makeup or jewelry.

Most SDA will not become involved with other Christian denominations.

Most SDA will disassociate themselves from anyone that leaves the denomination and joins another denomination or church outside of the SDA.

The SDA has been extremely critical of the Catholic church.

The SDA denomination was founded in 1863 but the movement started in the early 1830s. Ellen G White’s dreams and teaching were the main motivating factor for the foundation of the SDA.

Today we also have the reformed SDA denomination and I haven’t studied the differences, but it is just another split of denominations.

I would greatly appreciate anyone involved in the SDA denomination especially Elders or theologians to comment as well at other theologians and pastors.

My background, seven years of SDA schools and four years at Loma Linda (SDA college). Left the SDA denomination in 1974 so I’m not current on present day SDA teachings.

If what you say is true then SDA is not orthodox and is approaching cult status - although not quite as troubling as mormonism.

 

[Tree of Life]

Here is part of the statement of faith that I have issue with
"As Seventh-day Adventists, we believe that “in His Word God has committed to men the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are to be accepted as an authoritative, infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the revealer of doctrines, and the test of experience” (The Great Controversy, p. 7). We consider the biblical canon closed. However, we also believe, as did Ellen G. White’s contemporaries, that her writings carry divine authority, both for godly living and for doctrine. Therefore, we recommend:
1. That as a church we seek the power of the Holy Spirit to apply to our lives more fully the inspired counsel contained in the writings of Ellen G. White, and Statements, Guidelines & Other Documents – 111 2. That we make increased efforts to publish and circulate these writings throughout the world."

Am I missing something here, they state that the biblical canon is closed, but Mrs. Whites writings are prophetic. She never identified herself as a prophet, but never had issue with people who referred to her as a prophetess.

This is incredibly troubling. It is a flat contradiction to say that the canon is closed and to say that any writings outside the canon carry divine authority. Cult alert.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I have listened to him before, and he does make some very good points. I do agree with him regarding the denomination and cult issue. The SDA are a denomination and are not a cult.
He side stepped the dietary and Ellen White issue. She was the inspiration for the returning to Saturday sabbath keeping, and the dietary rules they have put in place.
It is interesting he moved from Pentecostal to SDA, that is something I didn't know about him.
He doesn't address the issue of why God waited 1500 years to deal with the Saturday issue. His comment about dietary cracked me up "sure we want our children to eat healthy"
Didn't deal with the grape juice issue either because he knows that would make him look foolish.
As for Mrs. White, she had always been required reading in the SDA schools. I do agree the Adventist have never put her above biblical authority.
Here again he doesn't deal with the scriptures that challenge some of the Adventist teachings. He is well spoken and does know the scriptures.

He has a really interesting background. His father was a multimillionaire, owned an airline and his mother was an actress, he had no religious background. He used to steal from his friends parents houses, kicked out of school and ended up living in a cave outside LA. Someone previously left a bible in the cave so he started reading it. His transformation from drugie to pastor is very inspiring.
Here is a video on his personal testimony.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I kinda of feel the SDA church must be doing something right. All these posts about SDA's. Jesus did say: And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. Mathew 10:22

 

[SabbathBlessings]

While I'm not that sold on SDA, I *must* say - they have excellent END time materials. I don't agree with their end time materials, but often wish us dispensationalists came up with as quality video as the SDAers do:

I agree with most of what you wrote!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I think Ellen G. White was blessed with some wisdom about nutrition such as is not found in the Bible. The Seventh Day Adventist community in Loma Linda is one of the few places in the world where as many people live to be 100 years old. Someone wrote a book about the Blue Zones where there is a higher percentage of people living to be 100, Loma Linda is a Blue Zone. I worked with a Seventh Day Adventist crew when I was in my early twenties. I attended Sabbath service in an SDA church on Saturday. This particular group seemed obsessed with the books of Daniel and Revelation, eventually I left. Years later I reread Daniel and found I like part of it. Red meat is a carcinogen. A diet high in fat and cholesterol may lead to premature heart attacks.

I remember some of the Seventh Day Adventists befriended me. I do not hate them. They may read the New Testament same as any other Christian fellowship.

Curious how often you attended SDA church? I wouldn't say SDA church is obsessed with end prophesy, but it is important. I probably hear a sermon on it maybe a few times per year. What I really appreciate more and more is Sabbath school before church. I love having a group Bible study before church.

 

[BobRyan]

The question then becomes are Gentiles grafted into the family of Abraham bound by Torah law?

Jeremiah defined the New Covenant in Jer 31:31-34 and said that it includes God writing the moral law of God (that which defines what sin is and is not - 1 John 3:4 ) on the heart and mind.

Paul says this included that unique unit of Law where the 5th commandment "is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-2.

Heb 8:6-12 says that the New Covenant is verbatim unchanged in the NT from its Jer 31:31-34 form.

So then "yeah" even in the New Testament Christians are not supposed to take God's name in vain Ex 20:7.

This is not the surprising part as it turns out - almost every major Christian denomination on the planet free admits that the Ten - are included in that Law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant and applicable to all mankind.

When James says "if you fail one you fail them all"

There are 1050 commands in the New Testament and some would argue there are also 613 in the Old Testament.

Paul spends his entire ministry making the point that the Torah does not save, it's Jesus' sacrifice that does.

Indeed -- not taking God's name in vain - is not what saves someone.

Yet Paul is very clear in 1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"
1 John 5:2-3 "this IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments"
Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP The Commandments of God AND the faith of Jesus"

Paul asks the question "what? Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law" Rom 3:31

This is even solidified in Acts when the Apostles don't require Gentile converts to become circumcised

Neither does the OT require gentiles to be circumcised in order to be saved. The Acts 15:1-2 false doctrine invented by Christian Jews as not in the OT or NT as ever having been a command of God.

Mark 7:6-13 - Jesus was very much against "making stuff up" -- even before the cross.

, there is absolutely 0 mention of sabbath or dietary laws.

Not true - they are both referenced in the NT.

What is not referenced in the NT is "do not take God's name in vain" -- it is not in the Gospels or in the NT letters. But that does not matter because there is no such Bible command as "whatever is not repeated must be deleted".

In the NT - Paul preaches the Gospel "every Sabbath" Acts 18:4 to both gentiles and Jews - in the Synagogues. In the NT there are many "Sabbath after Sabbath" gospel preaching services - in fact "every Sabbath" - but not one such example of that pattern for gospel preaching on week-day-1.

And according to scripture - for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

 

[BobRyan]

if you fail one you fail them all, therefore we should follow ALL of the Torah. Just because they are the 10 commandments doesn't mean that the other 609 laws can be changed or ignored. .

the leading scholarship in all major Christian denominations has affirmed the Ten Commandments. So it is not just Sabbath keeping denominations like Seventh-day Adventists that admit to that Bible detail.

It is also --

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism

 

[BobRyan]

The Ellen White stuff was the real straw for me as to why I don't consider myself SDA even if I go to an SDA church sometimes.

So then the Bible teaching on spiritual gifts and the gift a prophecy and what the Christian response to a prophet should be according to scripture was your issue??

IF we take examples alike Agabus in the NT or Anna in the temple in the New Testament or Philip's 7 daughters who were prophets or almost everyone in the church of Corinth in 1Cor 14 -- all that is a problem in your view??

1 Cor 14
Pursue love, yet earnestly desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For the one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people, but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for edification, exhortation, and consolation.

26 What is the outcome then, brothers and sisters? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. All things are to be done for edification. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, it must be by two or at the most three, and each one in turn, and one is to interpret; 28 but if there is no interpreter, he is to keep silent in church; and have him speak to himself and to God. 29 Have two or three prophets speak, and have the others pass judgment. 30 But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, then the first one is to keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; 33 for God is not a God of confusion, but of peace.

Who said anything about spiritual gifts? I also never said people can't have the gift of prophecy. I was critiquing some SDA churches who put Ellen White's writings on par with Scripture .

How many Holy Spirits do you think there are??

2 Peter 1: 20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture becomes a matter of someone’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

A message from God has value not because prophets like Ellen White write something or because Agabus said something or because Nathan said something to David - rather they have value because the Holy Spirit inspired them to say it.

If it is not your point to complain about the Holy Spirit doing that - then you are left with "someone I heard quoted Nathan's word to David or Ellen White's message to Adventists -- too often".

You have free will - you can choose that path of course.. I for one quote a lot of scripture on this board when making my case.

 

[BobRyan]

This is incredibly troubling. It is a flat contradiction to say that the canon is closed and to say that any writings outside the canon carry divine authority. Cult alert.

more bible please... The Bible is filled with examples of prophets that did not write scripture - Nathan, Anna, Agabus, the Christians in 1 Cor 14... etc.

 

[BobRyan]

1. We also think the Mormon doctrine is in error that states that Jesus was simply an Archangel named Michael before the incarnation - and not what He really was - which is infinite God the Son second person of the Trinity. We have that debate with Mormons from time to time - including on CF.

2. SDAs have 28 doctrinal statements - and "Jesus is Archangel Michael" is not one of them.

3. Our claim is more along the lines of Gen 18.
Now the Lord appeared to Abraham by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 When he raised his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed down to the ground, 3 and said, “My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by. 4 Please let a little water be brought and wash your feet, and make yourselves comfortable under the tree;

Now almost all denominations on planet Earth will admit that these "men" were in fact YHWH and two angels as the text points out. The fact that they were functioning and relating to Abraham "as 3 men" did not change the reality of what they really were. Christ is God the Son - in the Adventist view His warrior name and persona is Michael, and as Savior He is Jesus Christ -- but still infinite God the Son. the difference for us is that he was incarnate as Jesus Christ , but was never incarnate as Michael - rather Michael was just an assumed form for a specific purpose as when he appeared "as a man" to Abraham in Gen 18. That was not an incarnate God the Son - rather it was God the Son appearing in the form of a man to Abraham.

by contrast - as the baby in Bethlehem - that was God the Son incarnate in human flesh.

====================================

So then by way of "opposition" someone might claim that "yes YHWH as God the Son did appear in the form of a man to Abraham but would never appear in the form of an Archangel to Angels" - they are free to have that preference. Everyone has free will and could speculate that restriction of they so chose.

In Heb 1 "Let all the Angels of God worship Him" - speaking of God the Son being worshiped by His angels. In John 1 Jesus created everything and that includes Angels. So Jesus has Angels.

But in Rev 12 Michael has His angels and Satan has Angels that joined him in rebellion. For many Adventists this means that God the Son has a warrior role, a warrior name - Michael.

Obviously, yes. They (Mormons) are in error, but as everyone else, they don't think so. When you look at a Mormon site, you'll see their statements of faith and they have all these Bible verses that they claim support their beliefs. They've also prepared themselves to defend them.

True and we would expect all denominations to use that same method. But I have had many Mormons knock on my door over the years - and the first thing they want to do is "Read the book of Mormon" with me - then when I ask questions about their doctrine they want to go to "the Pearl of Great Price" or "Doctrines and Covenants" to make their case.

Highly unusual and I have not found even one denomination that uses that method other than Mormons.

If they considered historical academics, the traditions that where kept through out the history of the church, they would know their interpretation is in error just based on the facts.

I seldom argue "historians" with them. I usually just stick with the Bible.

This is the error that many modern protestant denominations such as SDA make. The apostles never passed down to keep the Sabbath/saturday only worship as the 10 commandments say

1. The Apostles never say to ignore the scriptures. And as the writers reminds us - what they called "scriptures" we call the O.T.
2. Acts 17:11 the sola scriptura model of the NT was to "search the scriptures daily to see IF those things were so" as spoken to them by Christian evangelists such as Paul.
3. The Ten Commandments are where you find the Sabbath Commandment.
4. Is 66:23 reminds us that for all eternity after the cross the Sabbath is a day of worship for all mankind.

The only time you'll historically find that Christians performing Saturday worship mandatorily is...

Is when you read Exodus 20:8-11, Lev 23:3 , Isaiah 56:6-8 for gentiles, Isaiah 66:23 for all mankind, Mark 2:27 Christ said it was made for mankind, Heb 4 "There remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God"

And of course Seventh-day Adventists were initially "Adventists" - they got the Seventh-day teaching from the Bible and from studying with Seventh-day Baptists.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

True and we would expect all denominations to use that same method. But I have had many Mormons knock on my door over the years - and the first thing they want to do is "Read the book of Mormon" with me - then when I ask questions about their doctrine they want to go to "the Pearl of Great Price" or "Doctrines and Covenants" to make their case.

Highly unusual and I have not found even one denomination that uses that method other than Mormons.



I seldom argue "historians" with them. I usually just stick with the Bible.



1. The Apostles never say to ignore the scriptures. And as the writers reminds us - what they called "scriptures" we call the O.T.
2. Acts 17:11 the sola scriptura model of the NT was to "search the scriptures daily to see IF those things were so" as spoken to them by Christian evangelists such as Paul.
3. The Ten Commandments are where you find the Sabbath Commandment.
4. Is 66:23 reminds us that for all eternity after the cross the Sabbath is a day of worship for all mankind.



Is when you read Exodus 20:8-11, Lev 23:3 , Isaiah 56:6-8 for gentiles, Isaiah 66:23 for all mankind, Mark 2:27 Christ said it was made for mankind, Heb 4 "There remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God"

And of course Seventh-day Adventists were initially "Adventists" - they got the Seventh-day teaching from the Bible and from studying with Seventh-day Baptists.

If I was a Mormon I would not want to knock on your door! I would love to be a fly on the wall for that conversation.

 

[Cis.jd]

Highly unusual and I have not found even one denomination that uses that method other than Mormons.

Not to disrespect you, but just by how you detailed everything. You have not entered a real debate with an experienced JW or Mormon. They do use the Bible and it's verses.

I seldom argue "historians" with them. I usually just stick with the Bible.

Like everyone else. They all "stick with the bible" because the Bible alone can be self interpreted. Even Muslims do so, just watch the debates of Ahmeed Deedat. They even use the claim that the books/verses in the Bible that you would address in your favor is all invented and inserted by the Catholic church when all else fails. How you do you refute that claim with out history? Every single church and radical belief uses the Bible to justify their views so both of you are having the same basis.

1. The Apostles never say to ignore the scriptures. And as the writers reminds us - what they called "scriptures" we call the O.T

But they also never said nor demonstrated a mandatory Saturday worship. We don't see it historically in the church - practiced mandatorily by any of the Christians in 1CE, the only time we see it being made doctrine is when the SDA started.

 

[PaulCyp1]

Jesus Christ clearly demonstrated that He was God, by constantly doing things only God could do. He, God, founded one Church 2,000 years ago, said it was to remain one, and promised that one Church "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". Therefore, any manmade church whose teaching contradicts the teaching of God's Church is not "orthodox".