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Is the "Real Presence" [catholic Holy Communion" Really REAL?

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by PJM, Aug 19, 2013.

  1. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Certainly, but worshipping the host in so doing--or the contents of the cup--is a no-no, just as we do not have anything parallel to the RCCs "Solemn Benediction" where the host is placed in a monstrance and it is displayed on the altar for people to worship. Also, and despite the actions of the officiant, it is not the minister who changes the bread and wine.
     
  2. MarkRohfrietsch

    MarkRohfrietsch Unapologetic Apologist Supporter

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    Well said, and as I posted earlier, it is the bread and wine and the words of our Lord, not the celebrant.

    Our confessions state the word and sacrament remain efficacious, even when administered by evil men.
     
  3. Andy centek

    Andy centek Seeker of Deep Truth Supporter

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    It seems that all most all the debating that I have read so far, the basics are not being observed by the reader.

    MISREADING THE SCRIPTURES
    I have noticed that much of what is stated on the various discussions is because the following is not followed: and it should be to get what is stated correct.

    1- Who was the text written to or for ?
    2- What time period is it for ?
    3- Is it given for the Jews or the Gentiles ?
    4- If for the Jews,why do the Gentiles Denominations take it out of context?
    5- The apostle Paul was appointed to write to all believers in Christ Jesus, not to the Jews
    only.

    You can not mix what was written for the Jews and expect to obtain spiritual salvation from what is written for Them only. Much of today's Denominations do exactly that. Look at what Jesus told His disciples.

    Mat_10:5-6 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter you not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as You go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    NOTE: Not the kingdom of God!

    Mat 10:7
    And as You go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    NOTE: Jesus did not come to the Gentiles, He came to the Jews of Judeah. He later, after His Resurrection, appeared unto Paul on His way to Damascus and gave Him the apostleship for the Gentiles.

    By observing this all of the false doctrine being preached today would vanish! Preaching false doctrine will have it's consequences. Man loves to create situations which They are in control of rather than follow what they are told to do. It is like what young children.

    Another thing that makes is difficult to teach is that men do not want to give up what is comfortable, even if it is wrong. “Has God said?; said Satan. Has Jesus Christ said to follow what is for you only? Indeed He has.

    Rom_16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned; and avoid them.

    Eph 4:14 That we hence forth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

    From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

    The New Life

    Eph 4:17-25 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

    But you have not so learned Christ; If so be that you have heard Him, and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: That you put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that you put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    Hence: Who was it written for? For what time period; before Jesus death or after His death. What was the program, works or spiritual salvation? Which doctrine is being taught? The Kingdom of heaven or the Kingdom of God? Who is being addressed, Jews or Gentiles? Are the things being discussed past or future?

    These are but a few of the things that must be considered when reading the scriptures. To mix up mud with pure water creates a mess!

    Andy Centek
     
  4. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Yes of course YOU interpret John 6 in a manner which denies the real presence, but you cannot claim there is no scriptural support as it is plainly there unless you interpret it away.
    Also, Christ said the flesh profits nothing, He didn't say HIS FLESH profits nothing. What He meant is their carnal understanding was of no use. They thought He meant they were going to have to chew on His flesh the same way they would eat any other meat. Some of the disciples left on that account and Jesus did not 'correct' their understanding.
     
  5. MarkRohfrietsch

    MarkRohfrietsch Unapologetic Apologist Supporter

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    1- Who was the text written to or for ?
    All people
    2- What time period is it for ?
    All time; eternal truth
    3- Is it given for the Jews or the Gentiles ?
    Already answered that; All people
    4- If for the Jews,why do the Gentiles Denominations take it out of context?
    See above
    5- The apostle Paul was appointed to write to all believers in Christ Jesus, not to the Jews
    only.
    Right.
    These are but a few of the things that must be considered when reading the scriptures. To mix up mud with pure water creates a mess!
    Right, so why is it taken completely out of context, and why did you post a bunch of off topic stuff as a smoke screen?

    As Luther argued with Zwingli; it is what it is. Don't add or detract from Scripture.
     
  6. Mountainmike

    Mountainmike Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I accept it because that IS the faith handed down by the apostles, and as practiced by the earliest church, so it is the meaning of john6

    If you have doubts read the earliest fathers: such as the letter of ignatius of Antioch to the smyrneans ( polycarps church, noting polycarp and ignatius were disciples of John the apostle)
    See a Eucharist of the real presence valid only if performed by a bishop in succession or his appointee: the early fathers consistent on this. Justin martyrs statement " is the flesh of Jesus" forms part of the orthodox liturgy,

    The belief in " real body " is why the romans thought that Christians were cannibals , and is also why the Jews were horrified at Jesus' comments at capernaum. The word "eat" Jesus used means " gnaw" as in meat, not consume generally.


     
  7. Mountainmike

    Mountainmike Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Indeed, we agree on this...Donatism was outed as heresy in augustines time.
    In which ( me being mischevious) Augustine lists the line of popes all the way from the first as non supporters of donatism!
     
  8. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Ignatius (30-107), who along with Polycarp was taught by the Apostle John, has this to say in chapters 6 and 7 of his Letter to the Smyrnaeans:
    Do ye, therefore, notice those who preach other doctrines, how they affirm that the Father of Christ cannot be known, and how they exhibit enmity and deceit in their dealings with one another. They have no regard for love; they despise the good things we expect hereafter; they regard present things as if they were durable; they ridicule him that is in affliction; they laugh at him that is in bonds.
    They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that ye should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion [of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved. But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.​
     
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  9. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Unless you are getting married in the Latin rite of the Catholic Church, in which case a form of Donatism seems to be alive and well, given how many marriages have been found to have not actually happened.
     
  10. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Of course you are correct in that WE ALL can make the Scriptures say what we want to believe that they say.

    Just for the sake of conversation on speaking of how we interpret Scriptures, how would you do just that with the RCC interpretation of the "REAL PRESENCE" of Jesus in the Communion process as they teach and believe it is a "literal" interpretation of the Scriptures that you posted from John 6.

    I am positive that you know that a "Literal" historical grammatical interpretation of the Bible does not demand the EVERYTHING be taken literally. I am in fact someone who believe in the LITERAL approach to understanding, but I also know that some things just are not literal.

    In other words, I believe that all of the Bible is literally true but not everything in the Bible is literally true.
    The literal sense or "sensus literals", allows for figures of speech such as ....BREAD OF LIFE which should be eaten as seen in John 6:32-33 which immediately precedes this discourse on "eating of flesh".

    I went into detail for you so as to show the CONTEXT of the Scriptures you used to show that Jesus DID NOT intend for His statements to be taken is a LITERALISTIC way.

    IF they are taken that way, and this is NOT an interpretation at all but is actually logical, common sense, then anyone can go to heaven by simply partaking of the Communion elements.

    Now, please read it for yourself and you will see that if taken LITERALLY as the RCC demands then when Jesus said..........
    "WHOSOEVER FEEDS ON MY FLESH AND DRINKS MY BLOOD HAS ETERNAL LIFE".(6:54).


    Isn't that exactly what is said?? That is NOT MY interpretation but isn't it what is actually said if we accept the RCC teaching of the REAL PRESENCE of Christ in the elements of Communion?
    I am curious as to How do you then interpret that???

    Are YOU comfortable with the teaching that heaven is obtained by partaking of the Communion service instead of FAITH in the work of the Lord Jesus Christ and His resurrection from the dead.????

    Now, it is MY understanding that eternal life is only obtained by FAITH in the Lord Jesus Christ.


    Bless you my friend.
     
  11. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    ALL magic is condemned by the Scriptures, but I do understand your point.
     
  12. Andy centek

    Andy centek Seeker of Deep Truth Supporter

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  13. Andy centek

    Andy centek Seeker of Deep Truth Supporter

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    Hello MarkRohfrietsch

    The scripture is good for all who desire to STUDY IT CLOSELY.
    However, it is not written to all people. Please read who the scripture says it is addressing. Is is addressing the Jews, or the Jews of Judeah, or the Gentiles?
    Scripture which is addressing the Jews has context that is for Them only, not for all. All can learn from it, but not all are being spoken to. This is where so much false teaching enters in which Paul the apostle to the Gentiles said to be Aware of.
    If addresses a letter to you, then it is not meant for all who may read it.

    John 1:10-15 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
    He came unto His own, and His own received Him not.
    Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
    And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheldJ His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bore witness of Him, and cried, saying, This was He of whom I spoke, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of His fullness have all We received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

    John_10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    These other sheep were the Gentiles whom Jesus told His disciples not to go to; for He was to later send Paul to be their apostle. Therefore what is written to the Jews belongs to the Jews. What is written for all belongs to Paul's teachings.
    This does not men that we can not learn from what He told Israel, we can. HOWEVER, it belongs to Israel and not the Gentiles.

    Act_9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go Your way: for He is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

    Act 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set You to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

    Mat_10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter You not:

    I hope this helps you to understand God's plan more clearly.

    Andy Centek
     
  14. Andy centek

    Andy centek Seeker of Deep Truth Supporter

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  15. Mountainmike

    Mountainmike Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The early fathers taught by apostles make it clear: real presence and literal are correct. That was what was handed on.


     
  16. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Literally a change, and literally a presence, not literally an absence of bread and wine despite everything our senses tell us.
     
  17. MarkRohfrietsch

    MarkRohfrietsch Unapologetic Apologist Supporter

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    If you maintain that Scripture is not for all people for all times, you are grievously deluded; however, it does explain why you don't accept God's word at face value, and why you can not accept the benefits of God's holy Eucharist.

    I am so sorry; it is so freely offered and so freely given. I could never reject the promised means of grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. Never.
     
  18. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

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    There is a Hebrew figure of speech for eating someone's flesh. It means to destroy them. Surely you don't believe Christ is telling His followers to destroy Him. If you insist on it being figurative then you have a serious problem.
    You haven't shown the above. You also have the problem that Christ always explained things to His disciples when they did not understand, yet in this case Christ does not show them to have misunderstood, even to the point of some of His disciples no longer following Him.
    Salvation is contingent on a number of things in the Scriptures, belief, repentance, baptism and eating Christ's flesh and blood. The latter must also be done in a worthy manner, properly prepared, otherwise it is to your own destruction. God is obviously not bound to these, since there have been many who, like the thief on the cross, had no opportunity to be baptised and receive communion before being martyred. For most, however, these are the standard means by which we are saved.

    If John 6 is not meant to be understood literally, why do Polycarp and Ignatius who were both taught by John, understand it literally?
     
  19. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Well, you are free to believe as you think and you have every right to do so and I respect your choice.

    All I can do is encourage you and others to look at the reasons it does not refer to the taking of the bread and fruit of the vine in the Lord's Supper as literal.

    1).
    To eat the flesh of Christ and to drink His blood in a literal way would make those who did it cannibals. This would be wicked.

    2).
    The drinking of blood is forbidden throughout the Bible. See Genesis 9:4..........
    "But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat."
    Leviticus 7:26......
    "Moreover ye shall eat no manner of blood, whether it be of fowl or of beast, in any of your dwellings."
    Leviticus 17:10-14 ......
    " And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people. For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood. And whatsoever man there be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, which hunteth and catcheth any beast or fowl that may be eaten; he shall even pour out the blood thereof, and cover it with dust. For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.
    Acts 15:28-29 .....
    " For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."

    As seen in the Acts passage, even the Gentile Christians after the resurrection of Christ were to abstain from eating blood. If Christ was asking believers to eat His flesh and blood, He would be going against the clear teaching of scripture in numerous places.

    So if anyone choose to believe that Jesus was talking about LITERALLY eating His flesh and drinking His blood then we would have to call GOD A LIAR because it would be a total contradiction to His commandments.

    3).
    In the passage in John 6, Christ clearly told them that He was speaking in a spiritual and not a literal sense. Verse 63 states......
    "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

    Here, He tells them that the flesh profits nothing and that He is referring to the spirit and not to the flesh.

    But again, it seems that it is acceptable to ignore those words and believe what you want to believe.
     
  20. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Christ gives us His life through His blood. It is precisely because the life is in the blood that we are to receive His life through consuming His blood.

    John 6:63 is referring to the carnal understanding as I have already explained. Spiritual does not equal figurative.

    It seems it is acceptable to ignore the fact that John taught his own students that it is literal.
     
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