Is the Partial Pre-terist View Not The Most Accurate Viewpoint?

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

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[dreadnought]

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I believe each one of us sees prophecies fulfilled in our life, though they are of a symbolic nature.

 

[BABerean2]

To answer the question of this thread... Yes.

If the Preterism does not go to the extreme.

Christ remained seated at the Father's right hand during 70 AD, while God used the Romans to destroy the city and the sanctuary, in the same way the Babylonians had destroyed it before.

The Old Covenant was fulfilled and made "obsolete" at Calvary, instead of during 70 AD.
This is confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16-29.
The Law of Moses was "added" 430 years "after" the promise made to Abraham "until" the seed (Christ) could come to whom the promise was made.

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Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.

Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)


Luk 21:5　 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,　

Luk 21:6　 "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."　

(Mat 24:2　 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."　)





Luk 21:7　 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"　

(Mat 24:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

(　Mar 13:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,　

Mar 13:4　 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?")　





Luk 21:8　 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.　

(Mat 24:5　 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.　)



Luk 21:9　 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6　 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.)　



Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution



Luk 21:10　 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:11　 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:12　 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:9　 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.)　(Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)



Luk 21:13　 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.　

Luk 21:14　 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;　

Luk 21:15　 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.　

Luk 21:16　 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.　

Luk 21:17　 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:10　 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.　)



Luk 21:18　 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.　

Luk 21:19　 By your patience possess your souls.　

(Mat 24:13　 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.)　



Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem



Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　(See also Luke 19:41-44)

(Mat 24:15　 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),　



Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　

(Mat 24:16　 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)　



Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　

Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.　

(Mat 24:19　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!　) (See Luke 23:27-31 where Jesus warned the women weeping for Him.)



Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)


The Coming of the Son of Man



Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　

(Mat 24:29　 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)　



Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　

Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　

(Mat 24:30　 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)　



Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　

(Mat 24:33　 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

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From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.


John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the exact same warning to flee from Judea to the mountains in the second verse of each Gospel.


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[DreamerOfTheHeart]

<staff Edit>

Not everything is symbolic, obviously. Especially, Jesus in Revelation.

The Angel of Jesus appears and shows these things to John, and Jesus finishes up speaking through his angel saying, "I am the Morning Star".

 

[parousia70]

Not everything is symbolic, obviously. Especially, Jesus in Revelation.

So this is Literal?:
Revlation 5:6
And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

It's most centainly Jesus, and most certainly Revelation...

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

So this is Literal?:
Revlation 5:6
And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

It's most centainly Jesus, and most certainly Revelation...

That is literal and metaphoric, obviously.

Jesus only spoke in metaphors, aka parables.

Are you attempting to say there are no metaphors in the Bible? Or what...

 

[parousia70]

That is literal and metaphoric, obviously.

Jesus only spoke in metaphors, aka parables.

Are you attempting to say there are no metaphors in the Bible? Or what...

Haha no.... Simply refuting your claim from your previous post where you said:
"Not everything is symbolic, obviously. Especially, Jesus in Revelation."

 

[parousia70]

I answered no, as the question is posed in the negative:
Is the Partial Pre-terist View Not The Most Accurate Viewpoint?

If the question were worded in the positive like this:
Is the Partial Pre-terist View The Most Accurate Viewpoint?

I would have answered Yes.

(Curious, why do you hyphenate preterist?)

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Haha no.... Simply refuting your claim from your previous post where you said:
"Not everything is symbolic, obviously. Especially, Jesus in Revelation."

you did not refute anything... i meant Jesus in tramsfigured form who gave those revelations to john... the jesus in transfigured form was not Jesus but the Angel of Jesus.

 

[parousia70]

you did not refute anything... i meant Jesus in tramsfigured form who gave those revelations to john... the jesus in transfigured form was not Jesus but the Angel of Jesus.

Ok well I guess I got here late to the party...

Taking the post on it's own, it appeared your claim was that Jesus is NEVER depicted symbolically in Revelation.

I'm sure you can understand how one could take your comment ""Not everything is symbolic, obviously. Especially, Jesus in Revelation." that way.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Yes, of course.

Hyphen, no idea. Probably my unconscious did it...

 

[parousia70]

Is not the partial preterist viewpoint not the least, most un-accurate view?

 

[DavidPT]

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

Let's say a partial preterist applies this verse to a past fulfillment. The fact this verse is still future though, in what way would that make partial preterism the most accurate viewpoint?

 

[Willie T]

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

Let's say a partial preterist applies this verse to a past fulfillment. The fact this verse is still future though, in what way would that make partial preterism the most accurate viewpoint?

Where'd you get the idea that was "fact?"

 

[DavidPT]

Where'd you get the idea that was "fact?"

It has to be fact since no one to this very day has ever undeniably proved that it's a past fulfillment instead. What else could it be if not a fact?

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Is not the partial preterist viewpoint not the least, most un-accurate view?

That is an assumption you are making, there is no proof for any of the popular doctrines going around.

Everyone is just making guesses.

If you want me to believe your view, then say, "I swear by Heaven this is the right view" and I might believe you. Or, at least, believe you have real and not fake confidence backing it up.

 

[parousia70]

It has to be fact since no one to this very day has ever undeniably proved that it's a past fulfillment instead. What else could it be if not a fact?

I'm not sure I follow your logic?

Since there are people who still believe the earth is flat, and "deny" that it is round, in spite of every available piece of evidence to the contrary, would you likewise say that the earth being a globe has never been "undeniably proven" to this day, so it being flat must therefore be a fact?

 

[parousia70]

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

Let's say a partial preterist applies this verse to a past fulfillment. The fact this verse is still future though, in what way would that make partial preterism the most accurate viewpoint?

I'm inclined to side with the apostolic interpretation found in the Parallel passage in Luke 21:

COMAPRE THIS:
Matthew 24:15 15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

TO THIS:
Luke 21:20-21 20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains,

In these two separate accounts of the Exact same discourse Given By Jesus to His disciples, we notice the same "when you see", the same "desolation" and the same "time to flee Judea", therefore we know that in each account, Jesus is speaking of the same event that He told His Disciples to watch for.

Since Parallel passages can not be interpreted to have POLAR OPPOSITE meanings from one another, we know that Luke's Interpretation of the "Abomination of Desolation" is authoratative, true and correct.
Indeed, A FACT.

Our Job is to simply line up our view to Luke's on the subject, which is what I have done.
You are welcome to Join me anytime.

 

[DavidPT]

I'm not sure I follow your logic?

Since there are people who still believe the earth is flat, and "deny" that it is round, in spite of every available piece of evidence to the contrary, would you likewise say that the earth being a globe has never been "undeniably proven" to this day, so it being flat must therefore be a fact?

I fully agree with your reasoning here. That should at least indicate to you that I possess the discernment to recognize when something has been undeniably proved and when it hasn't. In your post after this one you attempted to undeniably prove the AOD is already fulfilled. Let's see if that is so.

 

[DavidPT]

I'm inclined to side with the apostolic interpretation found in the Parallel passage in Luke 21:

COMAPRE THIS:
Matthew 24:15 15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

TO THIS:
Luke 21:20-21 20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains,

In these two separate accounts of the Exact same discourse Given By Jesus to His disciples, we notice the same "when you see", the same "desolation" and the same "time to flee Judea", therefore we know that in each account, Jesus is speaking of the same event that He told His Disciples to watch for.

Since Parallel passages can not be interpreted to have POLAR OPPOSITE meanings from one another, we know that Luke's Interpretation of the "Abomination of Desolation" is authoratative, true and correct.
Indeed, A FACT.

Our Job is to simply line up our view to Luke's on the subject, which is what I have done.
You are welcome to Join me anytime.

What was the AOD then? Until you point out exactly what the AOD was, why should anyone think it has already been fulfilled? Maybe Luke 21 has nothing to do with the first century. Have you ever considered that as a possibility?

Here's what it says in Luke 21.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


The text says this----and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Has the time of the Gentiles already been fulfilled? Because if it hasn't, the text indicates Jerusalem is still being trodden down until. Doesn't sound like to me Jerusalem is even meaning in the literal sense here if the times of the Gentiles have not been fulfilled yet. Assuming a 70 AD interpretation, why would Jerusalem still be trodden down of the Gentiles centuries after it had already been destroyed?