Is the law part of the gospel?

[klutedavid]

Excerpt from: UNDER THE LAW!

"Under the law"

Paul is the only one in the Bible who uses this phrase.

It's found 11 times in his writings.

Romans 3:19
(CLV) Ro 3:19
Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law, that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God,

Let's look at this very carefully. The law speaks to those under the law.

The law speaks so that every mouth in the entire world may become subject to YHWH's judgement.

As all are subject to YHWH's verdict; it appears that we have two groups here. One group is already subject to YHWH's judgement. The other would not be subject to YHWH's judgement in absence of his Torah.

The preceding verse serves to further define the behavior of those who are under the law:

(CLV) Ro 3:18
There is not fear of God in front of their eyes.

Why would we fear our loving Abba?

(CLV) Ex 20:20
Then Moses said to the people: Do not fear, for in order to probe you the One, Elohim has come, and in order that the fear of Him should come over your faces, that you may not sin.

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

You need to explain the following verse in Romans.

Romans 2
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law.

If sin is lawlessness; then how can the folk who have never heard the law perish?

 

[visionary]

I will use your quotation.

Dt 25:4
You shall not muzzle a bull when it threshes.

Obviously God was not talking about muzzling the bull.

So this method of interpretation that Paul employs by disregarding the literal reading. Opens up the law to a non literal interpretation.

That is part of the PaRDeS.. Normal among Jews.

 

[visionary]

You need to explain the following verse in Romans.

Romans 2
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law.

If sin is lawlessness; then how can the folk who have never heard the law perish?

If you never heard about gravity, didn't even understand it within its natural context, would your perish from falling 500 feet off the cliff? The laws of God are like that. They exist, they are whether you understand it or not, and defying their existence in any challenge could result in your death.

 

[BobRyan]

It all hasn't been fulfilled.

Romans 13 - we too are to "fulfill the law" - when it comes to moral law of God like the Ten C - you are supposed to comply with it rather than live in rebellion against it. That's why Paul says "do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we ESTABLISH the Law" Rom 3:31
'

Here we go again with your customary handling of the scriptures. Why the partial quote? Here's what Rom 13 really says.

What?? Then you proceed to give "a partial quote" of Rom 13??? why not quote the commandments we find there in Rom 13?

Rom 13
8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this,
“You shall not commit adultery, Ex 20
You shall not murder, Ex 20
You shall not steal, Ex 20
You shall not covet,” Ex 20
and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying,
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Lev 19:18
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

There we find
1. We too are to "fulfill the law" in fact "establish the LAW" Rom 3:31
2. "fulfill" still does not mean "abolish"
3. Paul is showing that the commandments remain after the cross just as before the cross.

Matthew 19 - the same as Christ stated before the cross.
if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said,
“You shall not commit murder; Ex 20
You shall not commit adultery; Ex 20
You shall not steal; Ex 20
You shall not bear false witness; Ex 20
19 Honor your father and mother; Ex 20
and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Lev 19:18

You asked for "more of the text" and I have given it to you -- because "more" means actually quoting from the TEN Commandments -- which of course "you did not do at all".

quoting "more" also meant showing how Romans 13 after the cross is the same as Christ's message in Matthew 19 BEFORE the cross... no change.

A detail you do not comment on

still

(-- though I have brought it up to you a few dozen times. )

 

[Cribstyl]

You need to explain the following verse in Romans.

Romans 2
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law.

If sin is lawlessness; then how can the folk who have never heard the law perish?

Good post. Paul is reinforcing the facts we read from Gen to Exodus in Roman 5:12-14. Paul said that sin was in the world from Adam to Moses, before the law was given.
Rom 5:12 ¶Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Paul said death reigned for sin from Adam to Moses.
We also read and understand from the flood about death for sin. No hint about death for breaking laws.
SDA have to ignore and discard this verse-by-verse narrative about sin and the law from creation, to hold on tight to a partial quote from KJV 1 John 3:4 .....sin is transgression of the law. They claim that Adam, Abraham had the ten commandments. They have to confuse the word of God so they can teach their doctrines.

 

[Cribstyl]

Romans 13 - we too are to "fulfill the law" - when it comes to moral law of God like the Ten C - you are supposed to comply with it rather than live in rebellion against it. That's why Paul says "do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we ESTABLISH the Law" Rom 3:31

What?? Then you proceed to give "a partial quote" of Rom 13??? why not quote the commandments we find there in Rom 13?

Rom 13
8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this,
“You shall not commit adultery, Ex 20
You shall not murder, Ex 20
You shall not steal, Ex 20
You shall not covet,” Ex 20
and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying,
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Lev 19:18
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

There we find
1. We too are to "fulfill the law" in fact "establish the LAW" Rom 3:31
2. "fulfill" still does not mean "abolish"
3. Paul is showing that the commandments remain after the cross just as before the cross.

Matthew 19 - the same as Christ stated before the cross.
if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said,
“You shall not commit murder; Ex 20
You shall not commit adultery; Ex 20
You shall not steal; Ex 20
You shall not bear false witness; Ex 20
19 Honor your father and mother; Ex 20
and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Lev 19:18

You asked for "more of the text" and I have given it to you -- because "more" means actually quoting from the TEN Commandments -- which of course "you did not do at all".

quoting "more" also meant showing how Romans 13 after the cross is the same as Christ's message in Matthew 19 BEFORE the cross... no change.

A detail you do not comment on

still

(-- though I have brought it up to you a few dozen times. )

Doubling down on falsehood does not make it true. I highlight your comments I disagree with in pink (above)
In Rom 13 Paul is teaching that; "love fulfills the law", but you have an agenda to preach the law, with the words of Rom13. By listing the commandments noted you can argue; "we're to keep the law". You can add references and pages of comments. Here's what Paul is actually teaching about fulfilling the law in Rom 13.

Rom 13:8¶Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Thanks for exposing how you abuse the scriptures

 

[Cribstyl]

What?? Then you proceed to give "a partial quote" of Rom 13??? why not quote the commandments we find there in Rom 13?

It seems reasonable that a full sentence or a verse can be a quote, but using 3 words (fulfill the law) from scripture raises a red flag.

Rom 13
8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this,
“You shall not commit adultery, Ex 20
You shall not murder, Ex 20
You shall not steal, Ex 20
You shall not covet,” Ex 20
and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying,
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Lev 19:18
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

There we find
1. We too are to "fulfill the law" in fact "establish the LAW" Rom 3:31

Your agenda to teach the law, blocks out that Paul is teaching that "all the commandments (listed above) are summed up in the saying "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
No one say that there is no ten commandments, we say we're not under the ten commandments because love fulfills the law.
Adding Rom 3:31 is another flim-flam 3 words agenda move. By reading Rom 3:21-31 you become exposed again.
In verse 31 Paul is saying "by living by the law of faith we establish the law. So you shamelessly extract "establish the law" and discard what Paul is teaching. How dare you extract words from the New Covenant teaching about faith without the law?
Rom 3:21¶But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:27¶Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

2. "fulfill" still does not mean "abolish"

What's that all about?
"Abolished" should should be discussed from the context where it's written. We are talking about Rom 13.

3. Paul is showing that the commandments remain after the cross just as before the cross.

Sir, you will be manipulating the scriptures to support you commentary till Jesus calls you to account.

Matthew 19

- the same as Christ stated before the cross.
if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said,
“You shall not commit murder; Ex 20
You shall not commit adultery; Ex 20
You shall not steal; Ex 20
You shall not bear false witness; Ex 20
19 Honor your father and mother; Ex 20
and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Lev 19:18

You asked for "more of the text" and I have given it to you -- because "more" means actually quoting from the TEN Commandments -- which of course "you did not do at all".

quoting "more" also meant showing how Romans 13 after the cross is the same as Christ's message in Matthew 19 BEFORE the cross... no change.

A detail you do not comment on

still

(-- though I have brought it up to you a few dozen times. )

I disagree, I've made my argument, no further comment

 

[Cribstyl]

In spite of Paul reinforcing the facts we can also read from Gen to Exodus in Roman 5:12-14, Paul said that sin was in the world from Adam to Moses before the law.
Rom 5:12 ¶Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
SDA have to ignore this verse-by-verse narrative about sin and the law from Rom 5 and hold on tight to a partial quote from 1 John 3:4 Sin is transgression of the law.

The premise that sin is transgression of the law, is a shaky foundation. It relies primarily on the KJV translation.
KJV 1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth G458 G458 for sin is the transgression of the law. G458
The big question is, does this text say no law, no sin?
A closer look at the Greek words 'anomia' used by John explains why the NKJV and 90% of bible translations uses "sin is lawlessness" rather than "sin is transgression of the law". Lawless means 'without law'; to act as if there is no law at all.
NKJV1Jo 3:4¶Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
ESV1Jo 3:4 ¶Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness

1Co 9:21To them that are without law, G459 as without law, G459 (being not without law G459 to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. G459
Observation:
Primarily when speaking about the law (NT Greek) the word "nomos" is used.
When a is added 'anomos' it means without law.

 

[klutedavid]

If you never heard about gravity, didn't even understand it within its natural context, would your perish from falling 500 feet off the cliff? The laws of God are like that. They exist, they are whether you understand it or not, and defying their existence in any challenge could result in your death.

Everyone knows about gravity even though they may not use the scientific term for it. That is not a good analogy.

As for the law that Israel received at Mt Sinai; most people in the world would struggle to name one or two of those laws. The God of Israel would be largely unknown to the rest of the world.

The law against coveting and the Sabbath day would be known to probably less than, one percent of society.

If the Gentile nations were judged on the breach of say coveting, when they did not know it was a sin. Because their national laws do not mention coveting as a crime. Would seem to me grossly unjust.

 

[visionary]

Everyone knows about gravity even though they may not use the scientific term for it. That is not a good analogy.

As for the law that Israel received at Mt Sinai; most people in the world would struggle to name one or two of those laws. The God of Israel would be largely unknown to the rest of the world.

The law against coveting and the Sabbath day would be known to probably less than, one percent of society.

If the Gentile nations were judged on the breach of say coveting, when they did not know it was a sin. Because their national laws do not mention coveting as a crime. Would seem to me grossly unjust.

Nope, not unjust, just the narrow path few find.

 

[klutedavid]

Nope, not unjust, just the narrow path few find.

How could God judge a person for coveting a neighbor's oxen, if that person did not know they would die for it.

Romans 4:15
For the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

You seem to be saying the opposite of Paul.

 

[Cribstyl]

What is the gospel?
Does teaching the gospel require me to teach Sabbath and the law to unbelievers?

 

[Dkh587]

What is the gospel?
Does teaching the gospel require me to teach Sabbath and the law to unbelievers?

Part of the Good News is repentance - people don’t know what to repent of if you don’t point them to the Law.

so yes.

 

[Cribstyl]

Part of the Good News is repentance - people don’t know what to repent of if you don’t point them to the Law.

so yes.

That's not truth, that's reasoning that could be proven false.

 

[pasifika]

What is the gospel?
Does teaching the gospel require me to teach Sabbath and the law to unbelievers?

Acts 13:32..We tell you the good news: What God has promised our ancestors He has fulfilled for us their children by raising up Jesus....

this in reference to Gods promised to Abraham and his descendants....

the law is Not about the good news but about being righteous on your own...Which is a bad news because we cannot be righteous to God on our own...

Focus must be on Christ the love of God which has given for us sinners that whoever accepts Him will live with God forever...and that is a good news for me a great sinner...

 

[Cribstyl]

Acts 13:32..We tell you the good news: What God has promised our ancestors He has fulfilled for us their children by raising up Jesus....

this in reference to Gods promised to Abraham and his descendants....

the law is Not about the good news but about being righteous on your own...Which is a bad news because we cannot be righteous to God on our own...

Focus must be on Christ the love of God which has given for us sinners that whoever accepts Him will live with God forever...and that is a good news for me a great sinner...

Paul continued about Jesus
Act 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

These scriptures establishes that the law is not part of the Gospel

 

[Bob S]

Part of the Good News is repentance - people don’t know what to repent of if you don’t point them to the Law.

so yes.

That is funny since Paul didn't point the Galatians to the Law, He chastised them for studying with those who pointed them to the Law. Before making statements like you did it would be wise to read Gal 3. How is it that the millions that have never heard of the ten commandments still know right from wrong? The Good News is that God before the foundation of the Earth had a plan for our redemption. That plan has been poured out in full. Now the harvest.

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through Him."

All the ten commandments could do is condemn those who were under them. Jesus came and did what the Israelites couldn't do, keep the law. By doing that He fulfilled, brought it to an end. Paul wrote that the Law WAS their schoolmaster Gal 3:28.