Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

[claninja]

As far as holding jurisdiction over Jerusalem is concerned the time of the Gentiles came to an end in 1967 when the Jews took full control of the city. Before then, the Gentiles occupied Jerusalem for far longer than the 42 months you equate with the four year Jewish/Roman war, and if the earthly Jerusalem is forever cast out, why does it continue to exist?

If the earthly Jerusalem was the Jerusalem of the new covenant, then I would agree with you. However, the heavenly Jerusalem is the Jerusalem of the new covenant (Galatians 4:25, hebrews 12:22).

The earthly Jerusalem is still a place, that we can physically go visit, and was even after the destruction of the temple because where it was is a physical location on earth, and the earth stilll exists. But it is not the Jerusalem of the new covenant. It was cast out, as in no longer the Jerusalem of the covenant with God.

But the heavenly Jerusalem has not yet come to us and until it does, we will be going to the earthly Jerusalem to await the heavenly Jerusalem which we will not see until after the new heavens and the new earth are created and again, if the presently existing Jerusalem was cast out in 70 A.D., why does it continue to exist still?

the earthly Jerusalem is a physical location on earth and still exists, because the piece of land still exists. It was cast out of the covenant. Under the new covenant, the earthly Jerusalem is no longer where we come to. Paul is very clear the earthly Jerusalem was not a part of the new covenant (galatians 4:24-31).

The believers of the 1st century had already come to the heavenly Jerusalem, So I'm not sure how You, a believer, have not yet come to the heavenly Jerusalem?
Hebrews 12:22 Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.

How else could Jerusalem have a central role in this forthcoming event?

What forthcoming event? earthly Jerusalem played its role in 70ad.

Luke 21:20-22 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city. For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

He draws no relation between the ten northern tribes and the Gentiles at all and while the cited passage of Hosea appear to be about the ten northern tribes, Paul has told us that it is not. What He does say is that the Gentiles have now been included with the Jews in the vessels of mercy and cited Hosea 1:10 and 2:23 as evidence that God had the Gentiles in mind before hand.

And who is the subject of Hosea 1:10? The northern kingdom of Israel. So your argument does not surmount that Paul applied a passage that was specifically about the northern kingdom, to the gentiles of his day.

But they did not become Gentiles and what Gentiles descended from them?

The term gentile is determined by covenant status. Those under the old covenant were Israel, those outside of the old covenant were not Israel, but the nations. When the northern kingdom was divorced, they were ousted from the old covenant. Thus they became as gentiles.

And since they were deported and resettled into Assyria, it stands that they probably mixed with the Assyrians or other nations that were resettled among them. However, there is no history as to what happened to the decedents of the exiled and scattered northern kingdom, only myths and legends. Unless someone has their genealogy dating back 2700 some years ago to pre Assyrian exile, no one would know if they actually descended from the northern kingdom.

For those of the divorced northern kingdom that did not move south to the southern kingdom and were not deported, they probably mixed with the Assyrians that settled in the northern territory. Their descendants probably became the samaritans, who were not considered Jews according to 1st century Judiasm.

Is the Assyrian empire the only empire and kingdom throughout which they were dispersed?

Well according to the Bible they were deported and resettled in the Assyrian empire.
1 kings 17:23 Finally, the LORD removed Israel from His presence, as He had declared through all His servants the prophets. So Israel was exiled from their homeland into Assyria, where they are to this day.

Did not the Babylonians leave some people behind after taking the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem into captivity?

I believe the poor, correct?

How could Revelation 7 be anything but literal?

Revelation consists of visions and symbols.

How could the forty year wandering in the desert be foreshadowing 1st century's 40 year time period which ended with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple?

While the 1st tabernacle was still standing "presently" in the 1st century, the way into the Most holy place was not yet manifest.

Hebrews 9:8-9 The Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle is still standing. It is symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience—

The destruction of the temple is associated with coming judgment of Christ and resurrection. Thus, just as it was 40 years of testing in the wilderness from their release of slavery before they entered the promise land, it was 40 years of testing, after release from spiritual slavery (30ad; the crucifixion) until the destruction of the temple (70ad). If the standing of temple in the 1st century was still present, it symbolized the way into the most holy place (heaven) was not yet manifest. Thus the destruction of the temple symbolized the way into the most holy place (heaven) had been manifest.

Israel's exile from Egypt is only regarded as a foreshadow of Christ returning from Egypt after a brief exile because of a threat on His life, but only because the Gospels say so. As for the rest, they do not qualify as foreshadows because they are never called foreshadows. If anything at all they are contrasts between the failures of Israel and the successes of our Lord.

So it's just coincidence then that Israel was tested for 40 years in the wilderness with the same tests that Jesus faced for 40 days in the wilderness?

Yet it is because of their eventual receiving of the New Covenant that the Jews retain their inheritance.

What is the inheritance that receive under the new covenant that is different than the gentiles? and what scripture do you have to support this assertion?

That remnant being large enough to continue abiding as a viable people and nation. (Zech. 13:9)

Can you elaborate?

Does He also not have joint-heirs?

Yes he does.

Where did Christ receive the kingdom? Heaven (daniel 7:13-14, luke 19:12). From Where does Christ have all dominion, power, and authority? Heaven (ephesians 1:20-21).

Why would Christians not be co-heirs with Christ in heaven?

Land restoration pertains to Israel only. No other nation or people are given such a promise.

That doesn't answer my question. What NT scripture shows land restoration for those of the new covenant?

 

[Contenders Edge]

Israel was in fact called strangers by God and even by David when they were already in the land of promise.

"Stranger" in 1 Peter 1:1 is not used in the same sense as stranger is used in Leviticus 25:23 in which stranger is used to refer to the Israelites in the sense they were not native to the promised land, nor is it used in the same sense as it is used in 1 Chronicles 29:15 in which it is used in the sense that our time on earth is only temporary and that our everlasting home is elsewhere.

Furthermore, the Greek word for "stranger" is called "parepidemos" which is defined as being foreigner, stranger, or pilgrim, but it is not used to define exile. According to that definition, there is no way that Peter was writing to exiles. All we know about his audience is that, because they were called strangers, they might not have been native to the Roman realm and were scattered due to unknown circumstances.

They could not have been Jews and yet at the same time were not called Gentiles. How that can be possible, there is no answer outside of the fact that it has been known that people of mixed blood have found themselves not being claimed as one of either of the peoples from whom they descended, thereby suggesting the possibility that this mysterious people to whom Peter was writing were not claimed as being either Jew or Gentile.

According to Paul, gentiles of the flesh "were once alienated from the commanwealth of Israel". BUT NOW have been brought near by Christ to no longer be strangers and aliens by FELLOW CITIZENS with the saints in the household of God.
Thus again Israel = Jews and grafted in gentiles.

But in a figurative/spiritual sense. The figurative Israel still does not replace the people and nation of Israel who are still counted as descendants of Abraham. In fact, the Church is only called Israel in the figurative once throughout the entire New Testament and that was for the purpose of drawing a contrast between the children of God by faith in Christ and they who are not the children of God though they be of Israel by blood.

The distinction between the Church and the nation of Israel is still maintained.

God applies a kingdom of priests and a holy nation to all of Israel, not just the Levites.
Peter applies this same scripture to the body of Christ.

Except for the Levites, the rest of the nation had not attained to the priesthood due to their unbelief. The only reason why have we have attained to the priesthood is because we have believed.

One day, the nation of Israel will become the kingdom of priests that God created them to be.

No, the point that you were making was that if a parable/vision/dream is not explained then we should take it literally.

By your logic, since Jesus does not explain the parable of the hidden treasure or even the pearl, then we should take these as literal stories, and not earthly stories displaying a heavenly truths.

Otherwise, can you provide the verse where Jesus literally explains the parable?

That you insist that the parable of the hidden treasure has no explanation to it makes it all the more apparent that you do not know what the intended point of the parable was for if you did, you might know whether I take the parable as an actual event that took place.

we agree that land restoration is not objectively found in NT scripture nor is the "cancellation" of land restoration objectively found in NT scripture. Therefore we can either make an argument from ignorance, as you have, which is always a fallacy in informal logic, or we can make an argument from silence, which I have done, which is not always a fallacy in informal logic.

The new testament states that the old covenant was made obsolete (hebrews 8:13) and ready to vanish in the 1st century, of which land restoration was a part of.

The NT declares the old covenant obsolete (hebrews 8:13), of which land restoration is a part of. That is evidence.

Declaring because the NT does not mention land restoration cancellation that therefore land restoration is still in effect, would be an argument from ignorance, which is always a logical fallacy. What NT scripture shows land restoration for those of the new covenant?

You have not yet been able to prove that my argument is one of ignorance other than the assumption that land restoration was canceled when the Old Covenant was canceled. You cite the canceling of the Old Covenant as evidence that land restoration to the Jews, even if they repent and receive Christ, is no longer in effect, but the cancelization of the Old Covenant in and of itself is not evidence that land restoration is no longer in effect.

That is an assumption that Preterist doctrine has made but assumptions are not evidence. Evidence would be scripture either declaring or giving indication that land restoration has been forever lost to the people of Israel.

What we accept as having passed away with the Old Covenant is what scripture has declared as having passed away with the Old Covenant.

If the scripture had not declared an end to animal sacrifices, we would still be offering up animal sacrifices and even if we were not offering them up for the forgiveness of sins, we would still be offering them up for other purposes.
If the scripture had not declared us no longer bound to the dietary and cleanliness laws, we would still be observing them.
If the scripture had not declared us no longer required to keep the sabbath on a certain day of the week, our Sabbath day would still be the same as that of the Jews.
If the New Testament had commanded us to observe all the Jewish feasts and new moons, we would be observing them.
If the New Testament had not declared the outward circumcision null and void, we would still be circumcising our sons.

For had the scripture declared the old passed away without declaring what passed away with the old, we would have no basis for declaring the observance of those things associated with the Old Covenant no longer required of us despite our trust in Christ alone for our salvation and to declare the aforementioned laws, ordinances, and observances no longer required of us without a declaration of abolishment of those things from the New Testament would be an act of heresy; assuming that they no longer apply to us just because we are under a New Covenant, in and of itself, would not be enough. It requires a declaration from scripture for a matter to be settled.

Land restoration is no different. While the scripture has declared the animal sacrifices and outward circumcision no longer necessary, and has rendered the obeying of the dietary and cleanliness laws no longer applicable to us, and has declared the observation of certain holiday, feasts, new moons, and sabbaths on a specific day of the week no longer required of us, it has never said that land restoration for the Jews is no longer in effect.

Land restoration is not only a promise that is found in the Old Covenant, but it is also a prophecy found throughout the scriptures. Promises and prophecies must be fulfilled. They cannot be canceled. Therefore what prophecies were left unfulfilled under the Old Covenant, and there are still some that have not met their fulfillment, must meet their fulfillment under the New Covenant as prophetic fulfillment is evidence of God's faithfulness. (Heb. 10:23)

It has been foretold that there would be a time in which Israel would be regathered to the promised land, never to be driven out again. (Ezek. 37:25, Am. 9:15) If that is what was prophesied, then that is what will happen and must happen. Otherwise, Christ has failed to fulfill all the words of the prophets.

When Christ said He came to fulfill the law and the prophets, (Mt. 5:17) He came to fulfill all things pertaining to not only Himself, but also to the nation of Israel and the entire world and in order for all things to be fulfilled, they have to be fulfilled word-for-word. Otherwise, there is no fulfillment.


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[keras]

That doesn't answer my question. What NT scripture shows land restoration for those of the new covenant?

I have answered this question earlier in this thread. You choose to ignore scriptures proving that the Christian peoples will inherit the holy Land. Ephesians 3:6, Romans 8:16-18, Romans 9:24-26 And Contenders Edge, grips onto the false idea that the Jews, despite 2000 years of Jesus rejection; are still God's Chosen, in direct contradiction of John 15:14-19, 1 Peter 2:9-10

The question of who will inhabit the holy Land in the period before the Return of Jesus, is made clear by the following Bible passages;

Daniel 7:25 He [the Anti-Christ] will wear down the holy ones of God. He will change the feasts and the religious laws. The Lord’s holy people will be delivered into his power for 3½ years.
[Those people, who stay in Beulah: Isaiah 62:1-5, will experience the Tribulation. Daniel 11:32, Revelation 12:17]

Daniel 11:21-22....a despicable man, not recognized as a king, will come unexpectedly and seize the kingdom by intrigue. He will sweep all opposition before him and will kill a leader of the covenant people.
[The leader of the One World Govt will conquer Beulah, Zechariah 14:1-2, inhabited by every faithful Christian, and will kill one of their leaders.]

Daniel 11:29-35 At the appointed time, he will again invade the South, but ships of Kittim will oppose him. As he retreats, he will vent his fury against the covenant people. He will reward those who forsake their covenant with God. Troops in his command will stop the regular offering and set up ‘the abomination that causes desolation’. With flattery, he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who are faithful to their God, will be resolute and take action.
Wise leaders of the nation will guide the people, though for a time, they will be taken captive and killed. Some help will come, albeit; not entirely sincere. Those leaders may become victims, so that they may be refined and purified, ready for the end of the age. Daniel 12:3 The wise leaders, who have guided the people in the true path, will shine like stars, forever.

The Anti Christ invades some unidentified nations in Southern regions, but ships of Kittim, [Cyprus – in the Mediterranean, but this is a metaphor for the Western nations] will stop him. He will then occupy the Holy Land, taking control and causing many of God’s people to obey him. Those who hold firm to their Covenant with God will be persecuted and some killed. This is in order to refine and purify them, ready for the Return of Jesus.
Zechariah 14:1-2 A Day is coming for the Lord to act and the plunder taken from you will be shared out while you stand by. I shall gather all the nations to make war on Jerusalem, the city will be taken, the houses ransacked and the women raped. Half of the people will go into exile, but the rest will remain there. Daniel 9:27 &11:31-32

Verses 1 & 2 must refer to the midpoint of the 70th week. [A 7 year period] That commences the Great Tribulation, 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls. Then: from verse 3, the description is of the Return of Jesus, 1260 days later.

Revelation 13:5-10 The Beast, [Anti-Christ] was given permission to continue for 42 months. [3½ years] He blasphemed against God and waged war on God’s people and defeated them, he was given authority over the whole earth. You have ears, so hear!
Those who are destined for prison, will be imprisoned, those to be killed will be killed. This calls for the endurance and faithfulness of God’s people.

Revelation 12:13-14 The dragon [Satan: the Beast] is thrown down to earth. He pursues the Woman, [Israelites, Overcomers; the followers of Jesus] who gave birth to the male child. [Jesus] But she is given the wings of the mighty eagle, so that she could fly to a place in the wilderness, where she is looked after for 3½ years. Ref. REB, NIV. Verses abridged.

In Zechariah 14:2 it says that half of the population will go into exile, this obviously is the Woman: faithful Christian Israelites, referred to in Revelation 12:6-17, where they will be kept safe until the Return.
Then, in Matthew 24:31 – they will be gathered back into the Land, along with those Gentiles who have refused the mark of the Beast, to live with Christ for 1000 years.

The other half of the population who remain in the Land, will suffer under the yoke of the Anti-Christ. They are the Lord’s Christian people, who have to face testing and refinement. Daniel 11:32-33, Revelation 14:12, 2 Esdras 13:47-50, Revelation 7:14....they have passed through the great ordeal.... It is these people who will say to Jesus: “Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord”.


So, who are those living in the Land of Israel before and during the Tribulation?

They are the Lord’s people, all the true believers, mainly the Christian descendants of Jacob; all 12 tribes of Israel, gathered, in order to fulfil God’s promises to the Patriarchs, to be His witnesses and to be His Light to the nations. All of the Lord’s faithful Christian people will occupy all of the holy Land, from the Nile to the Euphrates, being the people that Gad always wanted there, but has never yet had.

It is quite evident, from Bible study, that the next prophesied event, the Sixth Seal, will cause a dramatic clearance of peoples from all the Middle East area. Jeremiah 10:18, Jeremiah 12:14, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Amos 1 & Amos 2:1-5

In Ezekiel 20:34-38, we see the gathering of all the 12 tribes of Israel. The Lord will judge them and those who revolt and rebel will not enter the holy Land.
Then all His righteous people to emigrate there, as described in Isaiah 66:18b-21, Psalms 107, all faithful Christians, from every nation and language, to live there in peace and prosperity. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, and Romans 9:24-26 says how the Christians become Sons of the Living God, in the very place that the ancient Israelites were rejected.

They will rebuild the Temple and reinstitute the Law and the ordinances. Zechariah 6:15, Ezekiel 43:1-12, Isaiah 56:1-8

All the rest of the world will be under a One World Government, initially ruled by 10 leaders, but soon to be taken over by another strong leader. He will rule until the Return of Jesus, when he will be chained up for the 1000 years.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Good, so you agree hosea 1:10 and 2:23, which is about the northern kingdom of Israel becoming God's people again is fulfilled with the gentiles being included with the Jews in the vessels of mercy. And you also agree that hosea is primarily about the northern kingdom of Israel and their reconiliation to God.

Paul cites both hosea 1:10 and 2:23 in Romans 9:24-26 and applies both passages to the gentiles

You agree that Hosea 1 is about the northern kingdom. You agree that Paul applies hosea 1, a passage about the northern kingdom, as being fulfilled with the gentiles. But you don't agree that the northern kingdom, although divorced, scattered, and exiled by God, became as gentiles?

What I said is that they did not become Gentiles.

If Ephraim had not become a fullness of gentiles by the time of the 1st century, then Paul was incorrect to quote hosea 1, which was about the northern kingdom of Israel, as being fulfilled with the inclusion of gentiles with Jews in the vessels of mercy.

No, it is your understanding of the prophecy concerning Ephraim and Paul's reasoning for citing Hosea 1:10 and 2:23 that is incorrect.

And who is the subject of Hosea 1:10? The northern kingdom of Israel. So your argument does not surmount that Paul applied a passage that was specifically about the northern kingdom, to the gentiles of his day.

Actually it does in the sense that Paul never applied the cited passage to the northern kingdom.

We just probably disagree on if this is an earthly picture pointing to a spiritual reality or literal interpretation.

That much is true but much too in depth to debate here.

God never states that Abraham would be the father of many nations if he continued to follow him faithfully. That is not mentioned in the verses you posted.

Read Genesis 17:1-2

According to the Law of moses, how was a high priest determined, by patriarchal descent or matriarchal descent?

It was Patriarchal, but was it not you who pointed out a change to the law?

So you don't know if the sword itself is literal or symbolic. According to your own interpretive rules, shouldn't it be literal, as revelation doesn't give an explanation for the sword?

If you haven't found the explanation for the sword, you need read Revelation chapter 19 again. One thing for sure, is that the armies who will attempt to make war against Christ will literally be killed by it. Once again, birds do not feed on figurative corpses. Find the explanation to the sword and you will have insight into what I believe concerning the sword.

Are you sure we are referring to the same thing? You agree the resurrection of Christ is the fulfillment of David having an offspring on the throne?

Yes. What other Christ would I be referring to besides the Risen Savior?

Incorrect, the sources all agree that Christ is the σπέρματι

τῷ δὲ Ἀβραὰμ ἐρρέθησαν αἱ ἐπαγγελίαι καὶ τῷ σπέρματι αὐτοῦ. οὐ λέγει Καὶ τοῖς σπέρμασιν, ὡς ἐπὶ πολλῶν, ἀλλ’ ὡς ἐφ’ ἑνός Καὶ τῷ σπέρματί σου, ὅς ἐστιν Χριστός.

σπέρματι - spermati (singular)

σπέρμα - sperma (root word)

Strong' concordance is providing the root word. So its pretty obvious you are only looking at the root word and it's definition and not the actual word that is in the greek manuscripts

When I use the online Strong' concordance through blue letter bible, and click on "seed" it links me to the root word of sperma.

When you scroll down just a tad bit, it shows the different inflections of the root word sperma found throughout scripture. and when you click on σπέρματι, which is the singular form, it is found in Acts 3:25 and galatians 3:16

The reason why I am only looking at the root word is because the source I have (Strong's Exhaustive Concordance) only has the root word "Sperma." It does not contain "Spermati."
Neither does Blue Letter Bible. What Blue Letter Bible does do is apply Sperma to both the Greek singular and plural wording for "seed." But not all sources apply "Spermati" which indicates disagreement amongst the different sources.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/inflections.cfm?strongs=G4690&t=MGNT&ot=MGNT&word=σπέρματί

Correct, that is fulfilled and we are not waiting for a future "literal" Elijah. For John the baptist fulfilled that role, as Jesus clearly stated.

But what about for His second coming?

No disagreements that Israel will never be destroyed. I would agree that their "expansion" did not happen under the old covenant. I believe it did and is and will happen under the new covenant, for the kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed

Their expansion is in regards to their territory and borders, but because this will all be brought to completion when the Messiah returns, naturally, the fulfillment will take place when the Kingdom of Heaven is extended to earth through Christ's reign.

If the earthly Jerusalem was the Jerusalem of the new covenant, then I would agree with you. However, the heavenly Jerusalem is the Jerusalem of the new covenant (Galatians 4:25, hebrews 12:22).

The earthly Jerusalem is still a place, that we can physically go visit, and was even after the destruction of the temple because where it was is a physical location on earth, and the earth stilll exists. But it is not the Jerusalem of the new covenant. It was cast out, as in no longer the Jerusalem of the covenant with God.

the earthly Jerusalem is a physical location on earth and still exists, because the piece of land still exists. It was cast out of the covenant. Under the new covenant, the earthly Jerusalem is no longer where we come to. Paul is very clear the earthly Jerusalem was not a part of the new covenant (galatians 4:24-31).

The believers of the 1st century had already come to the heavenly Jerusalem, So I'm not sure how You, a believer, have not yet come to the heavenly Jerusalem?
Hebrews 12:22 Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.

If Jerusalem has no present role in the New Covenant, then it should not even exist and yet it continues to abide. That it continues to abide and is presently under Jewish control ought to make it evident enough that the role of the presently existing Jerusalem has not been fulfilled.

And while we are made members of the forthcoming heavenly Jerusalem in Christ, that heavenly Jerusalem will not manifest itself until the creation of the new heaven and the new earth.

What forthcoming event? earthly Jerusalem played its role in 70ad.

The event during which the wrath of God upon the world causes a slaughter so immense that the amount of blood shed is roughly 200 miles long and the height of a horses' bridle (roughly six feet high)


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[Contenders Edge]

The term gentile is determined by covenant status. Those under the old covenant were Israel, those outside of the old covenant were not Israel, but the nations. When the northern kingdom was divorced, they were ousted from the old covenant. Thus they became as gentiles.

And since they were deported and resettled into Assyria, it stands that they probably mixed with the Assyrians or other nations that were resettled among them. However, there is no history as to what happened to the decedents of the exiled and scattered northern kingdom, only myths and legends. Unless someone has their genealogy dating back 2700 some years ago to pre Assyrian exile, no one would know if they actually descended from the northern kingdom.

For those of the divorced northern kingdom that did not move south to the southern kingdom and were not deported, they probably mixed with the Assyrians that settled in the northern territory. Their descendants probably became the samaritans, who were not considered Jews according to 1st century Judiasm.

Where is it written that covenant acceptance determined whether one was a Jew or Gentile?

Well according to the Bible they were deported and resettled in the Assyrian empire.
1 kings 17:23 Finally, the LORD removed Israel from His presence, as He had declared through all His servants the prophets. So Israel was exiled from their homeland into Assyria, where they are to this day.

But did they remain in Assyria since the writing of the cited passage?

I believe the poor, correct?

And why were the ones who remained not granted national sovereignty so they could rebuild their nation?

Revelation consists of visions and symbols.

That may be true in some cases but not in every case. The commissioning of the 144,000 is such case in which there is no evidence of their commissioning being symbolic.

While the 1st tabernacle was still standing "presently" in the 1st century, the way into the Most holy place was not yet manifest.

Hebrews 10:19 says otherwise in spite of the Temple still standing. And how could the post-exile Temple be called the first tabernacle when the Mosaic tabernacle and the pre-exile Temple preceded it?

The destruction of the temple is associated with coming judgment of Christ and resurrection. Thus, just as it was 40 years of testing in the wilderness from their release of slavery before they entered the promise land, it was 40 years of testing, after release from spiritual slavery (30ad; the crucifixion) until the destruction of the temple (70ad). If the standing of temple in the 1st century was still present, it symbolized the way into the most holy place (heaven) was not yet manifest. Thus the destruction of the temple symbolized the way into the most holy place (heaven) had been manifest.

After wandering in the wilderness for forty years, the people of Israel obtained the promised land. And between the crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension of Christ and the destruction of the post-exile Temple, the Jews did not obtain the freedom offered them because they persisted in their unbelief which resulted in the destruction of the Temple, the days of which might have been prolonged had they not rejected Christ.

But because of their rejection of Christ, there was no release from bondage for them.

The crucifixion of Christ was dated to have taken place in 33 A.D., not in 30 A.D.; therefore rendering the time span between His crucifixion and the destruction of the Temple to be 37 years instead of forty.

So it's just coincidence then that Israel was tested for 40 years in the wilderness with the same tests that Jesus faced for 40 days in the wilderness?

The forty year wandering in the wilderness was not a thing that had to be, but could have been avoided if the people of Israel had trusted God to empower and help them obtain the promised land.

The testing of Jesus was planned by God to demonstrate that He could be tempted and not sin as evidence of His moral perfection and His qualification for being the sacrifice needed to take away our sins forever.

That is why the scripture never calls the wandering in the wilderness on the part of Israel a foreshadow of the tempting of Christ in the wilderness and what the scripture does not apply as a foreshadow, I cannot.

What is the inheritance that receive under the new covenant that is different than the gentiles? and what scripture do you have to support this assertion?

Jeremiah 30:11 stated that though God would make an end of all other nations, He would never make an end of the nation of Israel. They have been chastised, scattered, and persecuted, but preserved through it all and re-established as a sovereign nation once more. It is further foretold that a day would come when the people of Israel would be regathered to their land once more to remain their forever. (Ezek. 37:25, Am. 9:16)

No other people or nation has ever been given that kind of a promise. The best that can be offered to them is to become a part of an entity that, besides the nation of Israel, has also been granted an everlasting existence and that is the Church.

Can you elaborate?

What more is there to elaborate on other than Zechariah 13:9 tells us the size of the remnant who will be saved and consist of the entire nation of Israel in that day?

Yes he does.

Where did Christ receive the kingdom? Heaven (daniel 7:13-14, luke 19:12). From Where does Christ have all dominion, power, and authority? Heaven (ephesians 1:20-21).

Why would Christians not be co-heirs with Christ in heaven?

And what is the inheritance that we share with Christ?

That doesn't answer my question. What NT scripture shows land restoration for those of the new covenant?

That depends on whether you are asking about Jews or Gentiles.

According the book of Deuteronomy, first would come the blessings, then the curses, followed by land restoration, and finally, circumcision of the heart.

Deuteronomy 30:1-6 “When all these things come upon you—the blessings and curses I have set before you—and you call them to mind in all the nations to which the LORD your God has banished you, and when you and your children return to the LORD your God and obey His voice with all your heart and all your soul according to everything I am giving you today, then He will restore you from captivitya and have compassion on you and gather you from all the nations to which the LORD your God has scattered you. Even if you have been banished to the ends of the earth, He will gather you and return you from there. And the LORD your God will bring you into the land your fathers possessed, and you will take possession of it. He will cause you to prosper and multiply more than your fathers. The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, and you will love Him with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live

The blessings were poured out

The curses were poured out

Israel was restored following the Babylonian exile

Heart were circumcised following Christ.

So we see that while land restoration was fulfilled under the old covenant, circumcision of the heart was not. From the NT we know circumcision of the heart to be fulfilled under the new covenant as performed by the Spirit.

OT scripture declares land restoration fulfilled following the babylonian exile (curses poured out). However, unlike circumcision of the heart, NT scripture makes no mention of land restoration, so what gives us the support to say it was carried over? Because there's no mention of its cancellation? that would be known as an argument from ignorance, which is always fallacy in informal logic.

The reason why their heart remains uncircumcised is because they rejected and still continue to reject their Messiah and because they rejected their Messiah at His first coming, the circumcision of their heart was not fulfilled in that day and so, the cycle of rebellion against God and repentance/restoration continues.

When the Jews rejected Christ, judgment was poured out on them.

They were re-established as a sovereign nation in 1948 and given full control of Jerusalem in 1967.

What we are awaiting is the circumcision of the heart which will result in the spiritual transformation that will lead the nation to repentance.

While the promise of land restoration does apply to the end of the Babylonian captivity, that did not bring the cycle of blessings, curses, repentance and restoration to an end. It might very well have come to an end if they had embraced Jesus when He first came, but because of their blindness and the hardness of their hearts, the cycle has persisted.

Its end will be in eventual repentance. Wherein lies the argument from ignorance is the assumption that land restoration is forever lost to the Jews just because the Old Covenant is no longer in effect. What we can declare as being no longer applicable to us is what the scripture says is no longer applicable to us. The argument from silence is but a red herring. It is not an argument. It offers no rebuttal.

Laws and ordinances may be set aside and the basis for obeying them may be changed. But promises made and prophecies declared are never set aside or canceled even if one covenant is exchanged for another.

I would argue the laws that carried over into the new covenant were to love God and love thy neighbor. This is evidenced in the NT scripture
Doing the works of these laws do not justify us before God nor do they grant us salvation, for God does not need our works, but they do justify our faith before others.

And loving God and others is upon which obedience to the law is founded; that and gratitude for the gift of salvation we receive in Christ and for the grace and mercy given us.

NT scripture tells us what laws "carry" over into the new covenant agreement. We know we are not under the 613 commands of moses as Christ fulfilled those righteous standards in us (romans 8:4). Thus we are now free to love God and love our neighbor (galatians 5:13-14).

The NT scripture also tells us what the better promises of the new covenant are.

Forgiveness of sins (matthew 26:28)
Eternal life (John 3:16)
Kingdom inheritance (matthew 25:34)
Fruit of the spirit (Galatians 5:22)
Co-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17)

Where does the NT mention land restoration as part of the new covenant?

How does land restoration interfere with the aforementioned promises?

I don't deny that these things are literal.

Then you agree that in order for a prophecy to be fulfilled, the fulfillment must match the foretelling. Symbolic fulfillments do not count as fulfillments.

Only a remnant of natural Israel would be saved (romans 9:27). How is "all of Israel saved"? It is saved by Part of natural Israel being hardened in the 1st century leading to the crucifixion, while the fullness of the nations, of whom some descended from Ephraim, are included with the remnant of Jews in the vessels of mercy.

The remnant is made in reference to who will remain of the nation of Israel when they are saved. Zechariah 13:9 gives us further insight.

I agree that even though Jacob was declare restored from captivity, that it was not done fully. And what I mean by not done fully is not done spiritually. The old covenant and its law were a picture/shadow that pointed to Christ. The earthly picture/shadow ( the type) was fulfilled with Israel being restored from captivity when they returned from Babylonian exile.

We can see that earthly picture was fulfilled as even the Jews themselves believed they were freed in human terms.

But the ultimate fulfillment (the antitype) is found in Christ. For it is Christ who truly frees. Thus I would argue the ultimate fulfillment of Jacob's restoration is found in Christ.

The old covenant was the type, the new covenant the antitype. The old covenant was an earthly picture, the new covenant is the heavenly truth.

Do you believe being born again means to literally come out of your mother's womb a 2nd time? If you don't, then why do you believe the earthly picture of the old covenant is the reality?

But when Jacob has obtained his spiritual restoration, he will then become the prosperous and exalted nation that he was meant to be. He will be the priestly nation that he was created to be because the scriptures have foretold it and therefore must be fulfilled.

And what does the scripture say what it means to be born again? Does it mean to be born into the world a second time or does it require a spiritual transformation? And what things of the Old Covenant were declared and earthly picture of the heavenly? You have already listed them yourself in previous posts.

Debatable indication. If it was explicitly mentioned, it would be much harder to debate. Jesus makes no mention of land restoration nor to the apostles.

Your assumption that land restoration is canceled is even more up for debate in the sense you lack a scripturally solid basis to make that declaration as the cancelization of that promise made to Israel is not listed among the things that the New Testament has declared no longer applicable to us.

That which the scripture has declared to be of no effect under the New Covenant, we can also declare to be of no effect, but if that which was declared to have died with the Old Covenant had not been declared dead, then we ourselves could not make that declaration and all that which died with the Old Covenant would continue to be observed throughout much of the Church today, but because they have been declared dead, they are not observed.

Sure just show us where the new covenant mentions it then.

Show us in where in the New Covenant it is declared that prophecies and promises are subject to cancelization.

 

[Contenders Edge]

For starters genetic studies do not,without a doubt, define who is Jewish and who is not. There is not one concrete study out there that has been able to prove who is a Jew and who is not. So DNA cannot really tell us. DNA tests make the best estimated guess. They are not 100%. For example there are 4 haplogroups that are in higher frequencies in European Ashkenazi Jews, but "rarely" found in non Ashkenazi Europeans, and yet only half of European Ashkenazi Jews actually have one of these 4 haplogroups. So what does this tell us? only that you may or may not be Jewish but we don't really know, its just a best guess. So the fact that one of those haplogroups was found in my DNA doesn't 100% prove i have Jewish ancestory, as europeans with no Jewish descent can have it on a rare basis. However, I still could be Jewish as no one knows our family genealogy going back even 200 years.

Your sources do not say that there is no genetic evidence for Jewish ancestry. In fact, quite the opposite. It is a matter of bridging the gap between present day Jews and the pre-desolation Jews. In fact your first source (23 and me) stated in Fig. 1 that Ashkenazi Jews have more genetically in common with other Jews throughout the world than they do with most Europeans and if any of the Jewish gene groups, from either the paternal or maternal lines, do appear in a non-Ashkenazi European, it is counted as evidence of Jewish ancestry.

Unfortunately, there is too much reliance placed upon the mitochondrial line in attempts to bridge the genetic gap between the Jews of this generation and their pre-desolation ancestors. In the case of the Ashkenazi Jews, reliance upon the maternal line shows only Gentile ancestry eight percent of the time according to your second source (nature) whereas, as also stated by that same source, the paternal line shows Jewish ancestry.

It would be much easier to bridge the gap genetically, if both the maternal and paternal lines were given equal consideration. It can also be argued that this is where current Jewish law and tradition errs in determining Jewish ancestry.

Paternal DNA (y chromosome) tells that 70% of Israeli Jews and 82% of Palestinian Arabs belong to the same gene pools. So, who is to say that Arabs are not Jews as well.

That should not be surprising to anyone (Dispensationalist or Preterist) since both Jews and Arabs are descendants of Abraham, but if the majority of Palestinians do happen to be of Jewish descent, then that would render their ambitions for a separate Palestinian state pointless and annihilate any credibility that it possesses.

If one can actually trace their genealogical records back to pre-desolation Israel, well then they can actually prove they descend from natural Israel.

Additionally, from a religious standpoint, modern day Israel does not follow the religion of pre-desolation hebrews. They follow from Babylonian Talmud, which came in the years after the destruction the temple. It is a man made religion.

Ancestry can already be proven genetically. What genealogical records would be helpful in is determining is what tribe each Jew is descended from which may not be sorted out until Christ returns unless genealogical records are discovered beforehand.

As for the religious standpoint, changes in tradition do not change the fact that the people of the Jewish state are still descendants of Abraham by blood. The Jews in the days of the first coming of Christ did not practice the religion of their pre-exile ancestors either. They were adhering to the religion of the Pharisees, but they were still children of Abraham.

So then the present day land of Israel is in fact not where Israel will dwell forever, as it will be changed at the creation of the new heavens and new earth, correct?

There is a reason why God chose the location He did to establish Israel. We can only speculate as to what that reason was, but one interesting and noteworthy theory suggests that the land where the nation of Israel was established may have been where Eden, the land in which man was created, once was.

If that were true, not only would it make sense for Israel to be established and retained where they are, but it would also make sense for all that began there to end there. But again, it is just a theory.​

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

claninja said: ↑
For starters genetic studies do not,without a doubt, define who is Jewish and who is not. There is not one concrete study out there that has been able to prove who is a Jew and who is not. So DNA cannot really tell us. DNA tests make the best estimated guess. They are not 100%. For example there are 4 haplogroups that are in higher frequencies in European Ashkenazi Jews, but "rarely" found in non Ashkenazi Europeans, and yet only half of European Ashkenazi Jews actually have one of these 4 haplogroups. So what does this tell us? only that you may or may not be Jewish but we don't really know, its just a best guess. So the fact that one of those haplogroups was found in my DNA doesn't 100% prove i have Jewish ancestory, as europeans with no Jewish descent can have it on a rare basis. However, I still could be Jewish as no one knows our family genealogy going back even 200 years.

Good post............

There is a reason why God chose the location He did to establish Israel. We can only speculate as to what that reason was, but one interesting and noteworthy theory suggests that the land where the nation of Israel was established may have been where Eden, the land in which man was created, once was.
If that were true, not only would it make sense for Israel to be established and retained where they are, but it would also make sense for all that began there to end there. But again, it is just a theory.​

That is what Futurist are best at.......speculation and theories.

The Dangerous Confusion & Delusion In Dispensationalism & Christian Zionism Doctrines

During the 19th century, a peculiar doctrine known as "dispensationalism" arose. Its leading lights were Darby and Scofield; its bible was the Scofield Reference Bible; and in recent years its primary headquarters has been the Dallas Theological Seminary. Technically, dispensationalism teaches that God has two peoples in the history of the world: Israel and the "Church". We presently live in the "Church Age", and God's people today are Christians, the church. At the present time, the Jews are apostate enemies of God and of Christ, and are under God's judgment until they repent.

Someday soon (Its always soon!), Christ will return to earth invisibly and snatch away all the church - Christians (this is called "the Rapture" of the saints). At that point, God will go back to dealing with Israel. There will be a seven-year period called "The Tribulation", and during that period, apostate Jewry will form an anti-God alliance with the Beast, but God will begin to convert the Jews, and in time the Beast will turn and begin to persecute these converted Jews. Just when things looks hopeless, Christ will return and inaugurate the Millennium.

One other point to note: There are absolutely no signs that the Rapture of the church is near. It will come "as a thief in the night."

Now, this entire scheme, though popular in recent years, has no roots in historic Christian interpretation of the Scriptures, and at present it is collapsing under the weight of criticism from bible-believing scholars of a more historically orthodox persuasion. All the same, there are several things to note.

First, by teaching that there are no signs that precede the Rapture, dispensationalism clearly implies that the modern State of Israel has nothing to do with bible prophecy. If Israel collapsed tomorrow, it would make no difference. The existance of the State of Israel, while it may encourage dispensationalists to believe that the Rapture is near, is of no theologically prophetic importance.

Second, dispensationalism teaches that Jews of today, and even into the Tribulation period, are apostate, and this certainly implies that they are under the wrath and judgment of God. Christians should minister to them, and try to convert them, and show them all kindness as fellow human beings; but Christians should understand that during the Church Age, the Jews are not the people of God. Rather, the church is the people of God today.

Third, by teaching that Israel is "set aside" during the Church Age, dispensationalism clearly implies that the promises made to Israel are also "set aside" during that period. The land promise, and the promise "those who bless you, I will bless," have been set aside, until we re-enter "prophetic time". Thus, the Jews have no right to the land during the Church Age, and also there is no particular blessing for Gentiles who treat the Jews with especial favor.

Fourth, dispensational theologians are most strict on the point that the church is a "new people," composed as one body in Christ of both Jew and Gentile. During the Church Age, the distinction between these two is not to be felt in the church. Thus, dispensational theology is, by implication, opposed to the kind of standpoint articulated in many "Messianic Jewish" groups.

- James B Jordan, from his article Christian Zionism And Messianic Judaism

 

[Contenders Edge]

That is what Futurist are best at.......speculation and theories.

It is the Preterists who have been found resorting to theories and speculations to determine how everything could have come to pass in 70 A.D.

 

[Contenders Edge]

I have answered this question earlier in this thread. You choose to ignore scriptures proving that the Christian peoples will inherit the holy Land. Ephesians 3:6, Romans 8:16-18, Romans 9:24-26 And Contenders Edge, grips onto the false idea that the Jews, despite 2000 years of Jesus rejection; are still God's Chosen, in direct contradiction of John 15:14-19, 1 Peter 2:9-10

The cited scriptures are not the ones by which land restoration is implied. The passages which do imply such can be found in Romans chapter 11, particularly verses 12 and 15 and events foretold in the book of Revelation involve both the land and the people of Israel playing a central role which cannot be possible unless land restoration to the people of Israel is involved. Israel's reconciliation has always been evidenced by restored blessings which included land restoration, but they will not be the nation and the people they are destined to be until Christ returns to fulfill all things pertaining to them.

And if the Jews have lost their status of being God's chosen nation, why then did Paul call them beloved for the sake of their forefather? (Rom. 11:28) Why did he say that they still retained the gifts and callings of God that pertain to them despite remaining in unbelief? (Rom. 11:29)

It appears, according to passages, that the Apostles still acknowledged that the people of Israel still retained a status as a nation and people that was given to no other nation or people.

Daniel 11:21-22....a despicable man, not recognized as a king, will come unexpectedly and seize the kingdom by intrigue. He will sweep all opposition before him and will kill a leader of the covenant people.
[The leader of the One World Govt will conquer Beulah, Zechariah 14:1-2, inhabited by every faithful Christian, and will kill one of their leaders.]

Daniel 11:29-35 At the appointed time, he will again invade the South, but ships of Kittim will oppose him. As he retreats, he will vent his fury against the covenant people. He will reward those who forsake their covenant with God. Troops in his command will stop the regular offering and set up ‘the abomination that causes desolation’. With flattery, he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who are faithful to their God, will be resolute and take action.
Wise leaders of the nation will guide the people, though for a time, they will be taken captive and killed. Some help will come, albeit; not entirely sincere. Those leaders may become victims, so that they may be refined and purified, ready for the end of the age. Daniel 12:3 The wise leaders, who have guided the people in the true path, will shine like stars, forever.

You need a lesson in history if you think Daniel 11:21-34 has not yet come to pass. Consult the works of Josephus and the books of the Maccabees as reference points to compare with the majority of the eleventh chapter of Daniel. The only passages that have not yet come to pass are verses 35-45

Zechariah 14:1-2 A Day is coming for the Lord to act and the plunder taken from you will be shared out while you stand by. I shall gather all the nations to make war on Jerusalem, the city will be taken, the houses ransacked and the women raped. Half of the people will go into exile, but the rest will remain there. Daniel 9:27 &11:31-32

Verses 1 & 2 must refer to the midpoint of the 70th week. [A 7 year period] That commences the Great Tribulation, 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls. Then: from verse 3, the description is of the Return of Jesus, 1260 days later.

If the judgments are not to take place until after the first half of the tribulation, they would have to happen in very rapid succession. Under such a scenario, how would any government, even that of the Anti-Christ even be able to function? And how would he be able to have power over the saints while such cataclysms were taking place. It would make more sense for him to be given power over the saints before the wrath of God is poured out.

Revelation 13:5-10 The Beast, [Anti-Christ] was given permission to continue for 42 months. [3½ years] He blasphemed against God and waged war on God’s people and defeated them, he was given authority over the whole earth. You have ears, so hear!
Those who are destined for prison, will be imprisoned, those to be killed will be killed. This calls for the endurance and faithfulness of God’s people.

Other versions state "he that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword." If that is the case this would give us insight as to what manner of punishment will be enacted against those who persecute the saints; punishments according to the level of persecution carried out against the saints.

The other half of the population who remain in the Land, will suffer under the yoke of the Anti-Christ. They are the Lord’s Christian people, who have to face testing and refinement. Daniel 11:32-33, Revelation 14:12, 2 Esdras 13:47-50, Revelation 7:14....they have passed through the great ordeal.... It is these people who will say to Jesus: “Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord”.

The other half of the population which you are referencing is pertaining not to the entire land, but to Jerusalem only as is made clear in Zechariah chapter 14:2. As to how many people will remain in the land altogether is not entirely clear, but as is written in Zechariah 13:9, two thirds of them will die. The remaining third who survives will be they who have surrendered themselves to the Messiah and have called upon Him for deliverance.

They are the Lord’s people, all the true believers, mainly the Christian descendants of Jacob; all 12 tribes of Israel, gathered, in order to fulfil God’s promises to the Patriarchs, to be His witnesses and to be His Light to the nations. All of the Lord’s faithful Christian people will occupy all of the holy Land, from the Nile to the Euphrates, being the people that Gad always wanted there, but has never yet had.

It is quite evident, from Bible study, that the next prophesied event, the Sixth Seal, will cause a dramatic clearance of peoples from all the Middle East area. Jeremiah 10:18, Jeremiah 12:14, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Amos 1 & Amos 2:1-5

The cited passages say no such thing; most of which have already come to pass with the Babylonian empire as the instrument of their fulfillment.

In Ezekiel 20:34-38, we see the gathering of all the 12 tribes of Israel. The Lord will judge them and those who revolt and rebel will not enter the holy Land.
Then all His righteous people to emigrate there, as described in Isaiah 66:18b-21, Psalms 107, all faithful Christians, from every nation and language, to live there in peace and prosperity. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, and Romans 9:24-26 says how the Christians become Sons of the Living God, in the very place that the ancient Israelites were rejected.

All the rest of the world will be under a One World Government, initially ruled by 10 leaders, but soon to be taken over by another strong leader. He will rule until the Return of Jesus, when he will be chained up for the 1000 years.

Most of the cited passages only pertain to Israel's regathering to their homeland. Romans 9:24-26 simply describes how Jew and Gentile become united under Christ. As for the Anti-Christ, he is not the one who will be chained up for a thousand years. Satan, the spirit behind the One World Government, will be. The Anti-Christ will be thrown alive into the Lake of Fire. He and his false prophet will have the honor of being the first two people to be forever tormented there. (Rev. 19:20)

 

[BABerean2]

And if the Jews have lost their status of being God's chosen nation, why then did Paul call them beloved for the sake of their forefather? (Rom. 11:28) Why did he say that they still retained the gifts and callings of God that pertain to them despite remaining in unbelief? (Rom. 11:29)

You are attempting to make one group of Israelites in Romans chapter 11, when clearly there are two.
There is a group of "they", who like the Baal worshipers have rejected Christ.
There is another group of "they", who accept Christ, and are the "election".


Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

The gifts and calling of God are the same as they were during the time of Elijah, described in Romans 11:1-5.


1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Y
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes
.

Beware the circumcision and false Jews............

Romans 16:20
The yet God of the Peace shall be crushing the Satan under the feet of ye in swiftness.
The grace of the Lord of us, Jesus Christ, with ye.

1Co 15:25
For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.

Phl 3:18
For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

Rev 3:9
“Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not but are false—
indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.

Rev 11:12
And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “ascend ye here!.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud,
and their enemies saw them.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived ; the solemn warnings and admonitions which they hold out to all nations, but especially such as are favoured with the light and blessings of REVELATION

 

[Contenders Edge]

You are attempting to make one group of Israelites in Romans chapter 11, when clearly there are two.
There is a group of "they", who like the Baal worshipers have rejected Christ.
There is another group of "they", who accept Christ, and are the "election".


Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

The gifts and calling of God are the same as they were during the time of Elijah, described in Romans 11:1-5.


1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

.

But it is when Israel finally repents that those gifts and callings will finally be worked through them.
As a nation, there is only one Israel, but within that nation, there are those reject Christ and there are those who have come and are coming to Christ.

Eventually, all that will consist of the nation of Israel will be those who embrace the Messiah.
And because the day is coming when all of Israel will be saved, that they still retain the gifts and calling of God as a nation but will not be exercised in full until they do repent.

 

[keras]

You need a lesson in history if you think Daniel 11:21-34 has not yet come to pass. Consult the works of Josephus and the books of the Maccabees as reference points to compare with the majority of the eleventh chapter of Daniel. The only passages that have not yet come to pass are verses 35-45

Did A4E seize the kingdom by flatteries? Daniel 11:21b
No he became king by being born who he was. Therefore Daniel 11:21-45 is all unfulfilled prophecy.
I have copies of 1 & 2 Maccabees and Josephus and have studied them, plus many other historical works. None show a fulfilment of Daniel 11:21-45 at all, they are end time events, yet to happen.

Daniel 8:23-26 In the last days, when sin is most prevalent, a powerful leader will arise. He will succeed in whatever he does, and will take control of the mighty nations and of God’s holy people. By cunning and deceit, his plans will come about and cause great harm to many when they least expect it. He will challenge even the Prince of Princes, but then will be broken, but not by human hand.
This prophecy tells of events to happen in the distant future.

Daniel 7:23-25 The explanation given is: There will be a 4th kingdom, one that will encompass the whole earth. Initially ten rulers will govern it, but another leader will take over all this kingdom. He will defy the Most High God and will conquer the holy ones of God.

Isaiah 62:12 They will be called the holy people; the Redeemed of the Lord….

Revelation 13:7 The ‘beast’ is allowed to wage war on God’s people and to defeat them…. Zechariah 14:1-2

Daniel 11:32 By plausible promises he will win over those who will violate the Covenant, but some will resolutely keep their faith.


These Bible prophesies are proof that God’s holy people, His chosen elect people; all those true born again Christian believers; the One people of God, Ephesians 4:4-6, are not removed from the earth, as some would think, but are present in the holy Land during the last few years of this age.

As we see in Daniel 11:32 and in Zechariah 14:2, they divide into two groups, one remaining in the holy Land and the other goes away. Revelation 12:6-17 again shows these two groups; the faithful ones who refused the peace treaty with the leader of the World Govt, taken to a place of safety and those who did agree; Isaiah 28:14-15, must remain. Revelation 12:17

The fact of all the righteous Christians living in all of the Holy Land, before the Return of Jesus, is well prophesied in all of the Bible. Many do not see it because of false teachings and not comprehending the truth of how Christians are now to be the recipient’s of the promises of God, given initially to ethnic Israel, but now available to all true believers. 2 Corinthians 1:20

We Christians look forward to being at last the people God has always wanted in His holy Land.

That is our promise and our great privilege; to be alive to participate at this critical time of mankind’s history.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Did A4E seize the kingdom by flatteries? Daniel 11:21b
No he became king by being born who he was. Therefore Daniel 11:21-45 is all unfulfilled prophecy.
I have copies of 1 & 2 Maccabees and Josephus and have studied them, plus many other historical works.

Being born into royalty is not enough to make one king---not when there are other eligible heirs.
Did Antiochus of Epiphanes defile the Temple? Yes. That is what began the Maccabean Revolt.
Did many godly people face persecution and die at the hands of Antiochus? Yes.
Did Antiochus think himself as God? Yes.
Did disloyal Jews side with Antiochus? Yes.
Did the people who remained loyal to God perform exploits? Yes and Antiochus was eventually defeated by them.

Now how can saints be empowered to perform exploits against an enemy who is destined to defeat them? If they are able to perform exploits against an enemy into whose hands they are given, how can they be defeated by that enemy? That just does not make any sense unless that enemy defeats them at a tremendous cost to himself.

Revelation 13:7 The ‘beast’ is allowed to wage war on God’s people and to defeat them…. Zechariah 14:1-2

The people remaining in Jerusalem are not defeated but are rescued by Jesus when He returns. It is for the sake of His elect that He is returning.

The fact of all the righteous Christians living in all of the Holy Land, before the Return of Jesus, is well prophesied in all of the Bible. Many do not see it because of false teachings and not comprehending the truth of how Christians are now to be the recipient’s of the promises of God, given initially to ethnic Israel, but now available to all true believers. 2 Corinthians 1:20

The reason why many do not see it is because there is no scriptural support for it and what you insist supports your claims contextually does not.

 

[BABerean2]

And because the day is coming when all of Israel will be saved, that they still retain the gifts and calling of God as a nation but will not be exercised in full until they do repent.

You seem to be attempting to change the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, into the word "then", which is an adverb of timing, in Romans 11:26.

The manner of their salvation is found below in verse 23.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.


Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


There is no salvation outside of the Church in the passage.

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[Contenders Edge]

You seem to be attempting to change the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, into the word "then", which is an adverb of timing, in Romans 11:26.

The manner of their salvation is found below in verse 23.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.


Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


There is no salvation outside of the Church in the passage.

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I was in no way suggesting that there is salvation outside the Church and once again, you are making much ado about nothing. The context of Romans 11:26 is future tense as it pertains to the nation of Israel. That the passage begins with "And so" rather than "And then" does not change that fact.

 

[BABerean2]

I was in no way suggesting that there is salvation outside the Church and once again, you are making much ado about nothing. The context of Romans 11:26 is future tense as it pertains to the nation of Israel. That the passage begins with "And so" rather than "And then" does not change that fact.

It is not future tense to the "Israelite" of the tribe of Benjamin, found in Romans 11:1.

It is not future tense to the "remnant", found in Romans 11:5.

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[keras]

The reason why many do not see it is because there is no scriptural support for it and what you insist supports your claims contextually does not.

You don't see the great Second Exodus of God's people to the holy Land, because you have another belief about what you want God to do in the end times.
Not knowing just who God's people are today, thinking the Jews still are the 'chosen' people, is the great error of many.
WE Christians are the Israelites of God, His Victorious ones and the Promises of God to His Israelite Overcomers for Him, pertain to us. 2 Corinthians 1:20

The many prophesies that tell about the gathering of His people into all of the holy Land, soon after the Lord has cleared and cleansed that entire area, do mostly mention Israel, which confuses people like you who wrongly think the Jewish State of Israel is the only Israel.
But prophesies like Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, do not mention Israel, they DO support the truth that every faithful Christian will live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land during the end times. Also Romans 9:24-26 clearly states that Christians will be called the sons of the Living God, in the same place as ancient Israel was rejected. Isaiah 66:18b-21, Revelation 5:9-10

 

[Contenders Edge]

It is not future tense to the "Israelite" of the tribe of Benjamin, found in Romans 11:1.

It is not future tense to the "remnant", found in Romans 11:5.

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It may not be future tense to those of the nation presently in Christ and coming to Christ now but it is future tense as it pertains to the nation as a whole and that is where you fail to make the distinction.

 

[BABerean2]

It may not be future tense to those of the nation presently in Christ and coming to Christ now but it is future tense as it pertains to the nation as a whole and that is where you fail to make the distinction.

You are also attempting to turn the word "remnant" into "whole".

Rom 9:27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.


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