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Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by claninja, Jun 19, 2019.

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  1. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The most common version of the Premil doctrine promoted by many today, claims mortals will live to great age during the 1,000 years, but many will still die.

    Christ has already defeated death at Calvary, as revealed in 1 Corinthians 15:50-57.

    He will not rule over a world where sin, and death remain, after His Second Coming.

    .
     
  2. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Death in the millennial reign will not be nearly as prevalent as it is today, yet will not meet its end until it is cast into the Lake of Fire which is after the thousand year reign. During the reign, mortal man will have the privilege of living under the best conditions possible in a world where Jesus is physically present on the earth and at the end of the thousand years, many will still align themselves with Satan, when he is released from his prison where he will be bound when Christ returns and begins His reign.
     
  3. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Living in a world where death remains is not the "best conditions possible in a world".
    In Genesis 3:15 God told Satan that the seed of the woman would crush his head.
    The best possible world is one where the curse is removed.

    The "time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, and the lack of mortals at the end of Matthew 25:31-46, and Christ returning "in flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and the judgment of both the "living and the dead" at His appearing in 2 Timothy 4:1, and the earth being burned up on "the day of the Lord", when He, "comes as a thief" in 2 Peter 3:10-13, kill your man-made narrative found above. All man-made doctrines are revealed by the scripture which must be ignored to make it work. This makes them doctrines of ignorance.



    Is Satan one of the angels who sinned?
    If Satan sinned, then he has been delivered into "chains of darkness", to be reserved for judgment.


    2Pe_2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;


    Is Satan one of the angels who left heaven?
    If Satan left heaven, then he has been placed in "chains under darkness", until the day of judgment.


    Jud_1:6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;


    What are "chains of darkness"?
    When they were in the presence of God, the wicked angels could see the light of God. However, they are now banished from that light, which is found below.
    Therefore, they are now in "chains of darkness", which will not let them see the light of God.

    It is the light which we will one day enjoy in the scripture below.

    Rev_21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.


    Rev_21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.


    Rev_22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.



    The facts above are revealed by the master teacher found below.

    1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

    Joh 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
    .
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2019
  4. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Revelation 20:4 states that there are two resurrections, the first of which takes place at the beginning of the thousand year reign of Christ and stating that the rest of the dead do not receive their judgment until after the thousand years. If the judgment of both the just and the unjust are supposed to take place on the same day, why are we waiting a thousand years for the second resurrection?

    If this present earth is supposed to pass away upon the return of Christ, why is it that the new heavens and the new earth are not created until a thousand years after His return according to Revelation chapters 20 and 21?

    One thing for sure is that scripture places the resurrection and judgment of the dead before the destruction of this present earth.

    Furthermore, you keep insisting that there will not be mortals upon the face of the earth when Christ returns when the context of the passages you cited say no such thing. In fact it is to prevent all life from being destroyed that Christ returns. (Mt. 24:22)





    If Satan has already been bound in chains of darkness, how is it that he is able to make accusations against us before God in a place where the light of God is ever present? (Rev. 12:10)
    How is it that he was permitted to torment Job if he is not roaming throughout the world and able to go back and forth between heaven and earth?
    Why would Peter say that Satan is roaming about if he is already bound in chains of darkness? (1 Pet. 5:8)
    How is it that there remains demonic activity in the world?
    How is it that we are commanded to make ourselves ready for an adversary who is already incarcerated? (Eph. 6:11-18)
    Why does James tell us to resist a devil who is not around to oppose us? (Jas. 4:7)
    How is it that the Apostles were aware of the devices on an adversary who was not able to make war against them? (2 Cor. 2:11)
    How is it that Paul tell us to not be surprised that Satan should disguise himself as a benevolent figure? (2 Cor. 11:14)
     
  5. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    I have already explained above what it means for the wicked angels to be in "chains of darkness", but you are attempting to ignore what I said.

    Others here have explained that Satan is only bound in one way in Revelation 20, but you are attempting to ignore what they said.

    The "first resurrection" in Revelation 20, is the same resurrection found in John 5:24. What does it mean to you when a person is passed from death to life?


    The second resurrection in Revelation 20, is the same resurrection found in John 5:27-30.


    Please show us the mortals at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.
    Provide the text, and show us mortals within the text of the passage.

    Please show us that the fire does not come at the Second Coming described by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

    Please show us that the fire does not come on "the day of the Lord", when He, "comes as a thief", in 2 Peter 3:10-13.


    Please show us that the "time of the judgment of the dead" is not in Revelation 11:18, shortly after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.


    .
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2019
  6. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What you said does not explain how a wicked angel cannot have access to the light of God when they presently are still able to appear before the throne of God. As for what others have said, I do not recall anyone else except you attempting to explain in what way Satan is bound in Revelation 20 besides what the text itself says.



    Christ did not mention a resurrection in John 5:24, just that we receive eternal life when we place our trust in Him and what is meant by passing from death to life is not a literal bodily resurrection but a spiritual rebirth. Revelation 20:4 depicts the first resurrection as being a literal bodily resurrection; a resurrection of saints that had been martyred during the forthcoming tribulation. How is this merely a spiritual resurrection?



    Where in the cited passage does it say that the people being judged at Christ's return are not mortal?



    Where in the cited passage does it say that fire destroys the earth at that time?



    How is it that the fire Peter speaks of does not take place until after a thousand years after the return of Christ? (Rev. 20)



    Explain how it is we have eight more chapters of all that is to come before the judgment of the dead which apparently takes place in two stages according to Revelation chapter 20.
     
  7. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    What makes you think the wicked angels can now travel back to heaven and be in the presence of God, and Christ, and the souls of our dead Brothers, and Sisters in Christ?


    We have chapters after Revelation 11:18 because the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order. You have already admitted the book is not in chronological order.

    Let me say it one more time. How many mortals are left at the very end of the passage, in Matthew 25:31-46?

    The "first resurrection" in Revelation 20 is the spiritual resurrection from the dead found in John 5:24. The "souls" John saw in heaven have already been through this spiritual resurrection. The second death is not something to fear for those who belong to Christ.


    Who is destroyed by the fire in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10?
    It is found in the passage.

    Does 2 Peter 3:10-13 say the fire comes on "the day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief"?

    You are the one adding the thousand years to the passage, to make your doctrine work.
    Peter was looking for the New Heavens and the New Earth, instead of a 1,000 year earthly reign of Christ, where sin, and death remain.



    .
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2019
  8. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Revelation 20
    6 Blessed
    and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    The first resurrection, which raises us up from the first death, the spiritual death of our sins, to spiritual life, is the salvation experience which makes us blessed and holy:

    John 5
    24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    Ephesians 2
    4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
    6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

    Ephesians 1
    3
    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    For those of us who experience this first resurrection, the second death, i.e. the physical death which we all face; no longer has the power to separate us eternally from God, for Christ has declared that whoever believes in Him will never die (John 11:26), and Paul tells us that “death is swallowed up in victory” (1 Corinthians 15:54).

    This first resurrection elevates us as spiritual kings and priests immediately upon experiencing it (Revelation 1:6, 1 Peter 2:9), and we begin our spiritual reign immediately with Christ (Romans 5:17,21; Ephesians 2:6). Believers in Christ for the past 2000 years have borne testimony to this reality, thus 1000 years is not a literal period, but rather one of an ultimate duration known only to a God whose durations are not ours (Psalms 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8).

    This is the message of Revelation 20 to all who will accept Christ's free gift of salvation; the blessings and benefits of the spiritual first resurrection are theirs to experience and enjoy for time and eternity.
     
  9. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Read the book of Job. Read Ephesians 6:12 Read Revelation 12:10



    I think you need to reread that specific post again. I never said that the book of Revelation is not in chronological order. What I did say is that it is presented in an overall chronological format, but that chronology does not follow a linear fashion.

    The chronology of the book of Revelation can best be described as follows

    1. The opening of the seals (this however may be interpreted as a synopsis of events)

    2. The commissioning of the 144,000

    3. The trumpet judgments (The events of chapter 11 likely take place during this time)

    4. Chapter 11 ends with the announcement of God's wrath upon the world and then the judgment of the dead, but before any of that happens, the focus shifts to the events of chapters 12 and 13 which appear to take place before the vails of God's wrath are poured out upon the earth.

    5. Revelation 14:1-5 depicts the 144,000 on Mount Zion with Christ represented by the Lamb, thus suggesting a vision the of Christ (some have suggested that the 144,000 are taken up to Heaven after their mission is completed) but there are other events announced to be taking place roughly around that same time throughout the rest of the chapter and chapter 15.

    6. Revelation chapter 16 tell us about the judgments of the wrath announced in chapter 11, 14 and chapter 15

    7. The end of chapter 16 ends with the armies being gathered together to Armageddon but before preceding to the events of chapter 19, chapters 17 and 18 shift to the downfall of Babylon (both the figurative and the literal).

    8. Chapter 19 shifts back to the battle of Armageddon and the return of Christ.

    9. Chapters 20-22 is about the thousand year reign when the first resurrection takes place and all events following, including the second resurrection, ending with the creation of the new heaven and new earth, and the descent of the New Jerusalem.



    What in that passages makes you think that there are not any mortals standing before Christ when He returns?



    Those of the first resurrection are those who had already died in Christ beforehand. How can the first resurrection possibly be only a spiritual one when the ones being resurrected had been spiritually resurrected upon placing their faith in Christ before they died?



    What is not mentioned among that which is destroyed?



    Your accusation makes no sense since the thousand years is already mentioned in the scripture. So how can I be adding the thousand years to anything? The question that should be asked is how can what appears to be--and I am not saying that they are--two contradictory passages be harmonized with one another?
     
  10. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The beginning of Revelation chapter 12 is a history lesson.
    We know this because it contains the birth and death of Christ.

    Rev 12:5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.


    There is nothing in the Book of Job that says Satan appeared before God, in heaven.
    God can be anywhere. We know this because He came down on Mount Sinai.
    Do you understand the difference between the first heaven, the second heaven, and the third heaven?

    Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.


    Eph_2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:



    Christ judges mortals on this planet at His return in the passage below.
    How many of those mortals are left alive on the planet in verse 46?


    Mat 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
    Mat 25:32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
    Mat 25:33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
    Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    Mat 25:35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
    Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
    Mat 25:37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
    Mat 25:38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
    Mat 25:39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
    Mat 25:40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
    Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
    Mat 25:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
    Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
    Mat 25:44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
    Mat 25:45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
    Mat 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

    I do not see any mortals left alive on the planet in verse 46.


    The thousand years was not mentioned by Peter in 2 Peter 3:10-13, but you have to insert it there to make your doctrine work. If a phrase is used in the Bible, do you think you have the right to put it anywhere you want?


    Because Christ returns "as a thief" at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19, we know the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.


    If the 7th trumpet is not the last trumpet in the Bible, please show us the 8th trumpet.
    The "time of the judgment of the dead" occurs in Revelation 11:18, shortly after the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11:15.


    .
     
  11. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The first resurrection described in Revelation 20:4 is described as the resurrection of they who had died beforehand. They who died before this first resurrection had already received Christ and had undergone their spiritual resurrection before their physical death.

    Furthermore, after this first resurrection, there is another. Technically that would not be two resurrections but three resurrections that take place. A spiritual resurrection upon receiving Christ, a physical resurrection of the people who died in faith upon the return of Christ and then a third resurrection, presumably the resurrection of the unbelieving and wicked who are then sentenced to eternal damnation in the Lake of Fire.

    Such an interpretation does not match up with the context of Revelation chapter 20 which only tells of two bodily resurrections; one a the beginning of the thousand year reign, of those who had died after their spiritual resurrection in Christ, and then another after the thousand year reign.




    The cited passages may state that what may seem like a long time to us is not a long time in the eyes of the Lord but they do not answer how a thousand years is supposed to represent an indefinite period of time of which the Church Age has been.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2019
  12. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But there is more that is told that has not yet happened. In this case, we are given a glimpse of the past to understand what is going to happen in the future.



    Where else do angels present themselves before God if not before His throne which is in Heaven? What reason is there to think they could be presenting themselves before Him anywhere else? And where ever God is physically present, so it His light. How can Satan not be exposed to that light when he is standing in the direct presence of God as he did in the book of Job and as he still does to accuse us before God?

    Revelation 12:10 even makes it clear that Satan is in heaven when he is accusing us before God. When he is not on the earth committing evil, he is in heaven accusing us before our Maker.



    Who is allowed into His Kingdom? That will tell you who will still be alive after He has passed judgment upon the inhabitants.



    But the Apostle John mentions the thousand years and it is not a matter of inserting the thousand years in the cited passage from 2 Peter as it is about reconciling what would otherwise appear to be a contradiction.



    How can Christ at this time be coming as a thief when even His enemies already know He is coming? They gather at Armageddon to make war against Him. (Rev. 16:14, 16, 19:19)
    You cannot be prepared to make war against an enemy that you do not expect to be facing.

    As for the seventh trumpet, it probably does not sound until after the events of chapter 12 and 13. The seventh trumpet announces the wrath of God about which chapter 16 tells us more.
     
  13. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    How can you say the 7th trumpet probably does not sound until after chapter 12, and 13?
    Have you ever read the verse below, or do you just ignore it?


    Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"


    Does chapter 16 below contain a description of His "coming as a thief".

    Rev 16:15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."
    Rev 16:16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.
    Rev 16:17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done!"
    Rev 16:18 And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.
    Rev 16:19 Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
    Rev 16:20 Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
    (What would happen to this planet if every mountain fled from its place and all of the mountains were destroyed?)


    Rev 16:21 And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.


    If the beginning of Revelation 12 is not a history lesson, do you think Christ has not been born yet?

    Rev 12:4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.
    Rev 12:5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.
    .
     
  14. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Revelation 11:15 announces that the kingdoms of this world are turned over to our Lord and yet in chapters 12 and 13, it appears that Satan is reigning upon the earth for a time before the Almighty takes the world from him. The seventh blowing of the trumpet is more consistent with the events of chapter 16 than with chapters 12 and 13.



    But how is that reconciled with passages indicating that His enemies will know that He is coming and are prepared to meet Him in a battle in which our Lord quickly defeats them?



    According to the scripture, apparently nothing because the battle of Armageddon continues after every mountain is destroyed.



    When did I say that the beginning of Revelation chapter 12 was not a history lesson? I very much said that there were events depicted in chapter 12 that served as a review of past events to help the reader to understand what is to come. Read my post again.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2019
  15. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    We can all now see how you get your doctrine to work.
    Ignore what the text says, if it disagrees with your viewpoint.


    Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"


    Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

    The text above proves the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

    .
     
  16. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But what is supposed to come first? The kingdoms of the world being turned back over to our Lord or the brief time the Anti-Christ has to persecute the saints to the ends of the earth?
     
  17. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Your question proves the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

    Otherwise, you would not have to ignore the 7th trump being sounded in Revelation 11:15, and "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18.


    .
     
  18. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How does my question prove that the book of Revelation does not possess a chronology to it? And besides, it does not appear that the events of verses 15 and 18 happen immediately since John is directed to events that still must happen before.
     
  19. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Israel was in fact called strangers by God and even by David when they were already in the land of promise.

    Leviticus 25:23 The land must not be sold permanently, because it is Mine, and you are but strangers and sojourners with Me

    1 chronicles 29:15 For we are strangers before you and sojourners, as all our fathers were. Our days on the earth are like a shadow, and there is no abiding

    The word for dispersion Bible refers to the Israelites among the gentiles.

    From strongs: From diaspeiro; dispersion, i.e. (specially and concretely) the (converted) Israelite resident in Gentile countries -- (which are) scattered (abroad).

    From Help's studies: 1290 (diaspora) is used figuratively of the Jews in NT times. They were literally scattered throughout the Roman empire (i.e. dispersed) and therefore called "the Diaspora."

    Israel = Jew and grafted in gentiles. Peter, an apostle to the circumcised, wrote to these very people. This is evidenced by Peter writing to the exile in the dispersion, as well as to those that were not God's people, but now are, which is a reference to hosea and the exiled, divorced northern kingdom of Israel.

    1 Peter 1:1 To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,


    1 peter 2:9 Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

    Peter's audience is related to being built into a spiritual house
    1 Peter 2:5 you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house,

    According to Paul, gentiles of the flesh "were once alienated from the commanwealth of Israel". BUT NOW have been brought near by Christ to no longer be strangers and aliens by FELLOW CITIZENS with the saints in the household of God.

    ephesians 2:12-19 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,d but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God.

    Thus again Israel = Jews and grafted in gentiles.

    God applies a kingdom of priests and a holy nation to all of Israel, not just the Levites.

    Exodus 19:5-6 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel.”

    Peter applies this same scripture to the body of Christ.

    No, the point that you were making was that if a parable/vision/dream is not explained then we should take it literally.

    By your logic, since Jesus does not explain the parable of the hidden treasure or even the pearl, then we should take these as literal stories, and not earthly stories displaying a heavenly truths.

    Otherwise, can you provide the verse where Jesus literally explains the parable?



    Good, so we agree that land restoration is not objectively found in NT scripture nor is the "cancellation" of land restoration objectively found in NT scripture. Therefore we can either make an argument from ignorance, as you have, which is always a fallacy in informal logic, or we can make an argument from silence, which I have done, which is not always a fallacy in informal logic.

    The new testament states that the old covenant was made obsolete (hebrews 8:13) and ready to vanish in the 1st century, of which land restoration was a part of.



    Good, so you agree hosea 1:10 and 2:23, which is about the northern kingdom of Israel becoming God's people again is fulfilled with the gentiles being included with the Jews in the vessels of mercy. And you also agree that hosea is primarily about the northern kingdom of Israel and their reconiliation to God.

    Paul cites both hosea 1:10 and 2:23 in Romans 9:24-26 and applies both passages to the gentiles

    You agree that Hosea 1 is about the northern kingdom. You agree that Paul applies hosea 1, a passage about the northern kingdom, as being fulfilled with the gentiles. But you don't agree that the northern kingdom, although divorced, scattered, and exiled by God, became as gentiles?

    Sure just point to where I can find this teaching in the new covenant, which is what the OP is about.

    I'm glad we can agree. We just probably disagree on if this is an earthly picture pointing to a spiritual reality or literal interpretation.

    God never states that Abraham would be the father of many nations if he continued to follow him faithfully. That is not mentioned in the verses you posted.

    In ancient near east cultures, when a covenant was made between 2 parties. Animals were cut in half and both parties walked through the halves of the carcasses. This showed that both parties promised to uphold their part of the agreement. In Abraham's case, only God passed through carcasses (genesis 15:12-17) after making his promise to Abraham (Genesis 15:1-5), thus signifying that only God was the responsible party for upholding his promise. This is unlike the old covenant where the Israelites also walked through the halves of the carcasses (Jeremiah 34:18), which signified that both parties were responsible for upholding their end of the agreement.

    As we see in Genesis 15:1-5 God makes a promise to Abraham. Abraham then simply believes God and thus it is counted as righteousness in Genes 15:6, Then God seals the covenant by walking through the carcass halves alone. This signifies that He alone was the responsible party for fulfilling His promise in Genesis 15:12-17.

    The covenant of circumcision, which became part of the law (leviticus 12:3), came after the promises were made to Abraham (romans 4:10). Circumcision came to Abraham as a seal of righteousness (romans 4:11) that he had by faith.



    According to the Law of moses, how was a high priest determined, by patriarchal descent or matriarchal descent?


    So you don't know if the sword itself is literal or symbolic. According to your own interpretive rules, shouldn't it be literal, as revelation doesn't give an explanation for the sword?


    Are you sure we are referring to the same thing? You agree the resurrection of Christ is the fulfillment of David having an offspring on the throne?

    Incorrect, the sources all agree that Christ is the σπέρματι

    τῷ δὲ Ἀβραὰμ ἐρρέθησαν αἱ ἐπαγγελίαι καὶ τῷ σπέρματι αὐτοῦ. οὐ λέγει Καὶ τοῖς σπέρμασιν, ὡς ἐπὶ πολλῶν, ἀλλ’ ὡς ἐφ’ ἑνός Καὶ τῷ σπέρματί σου, ὅς ἐστιν Χριστός.

    σπέρματι - spermati (singular)

    σπέρμα - sperma (root word)

    Strong' concordance is providing the root word. So its pretty obvious you are only looking at the root word and it's definition and not the actual word that is in the greek manuscripts

    When I use the online Strong' concordance through blue letter bible, and click on "seed" it links me to the root word of sperma.

    Genesis 1:1 (KJV)


    When you scroll down just a tad bit, it shows the different inflections of the root word sperma found throughout scripture. and when you click on σπέρματι, which is the singular form, it is found in Acts 3:25 and galatians 3:16

    Genesis 1:1 (KJV)



    Correct, that is fulfilled and we are not waiting for a future "literal" Elijah. For John the baptist fulfilled that role, as Jesus clearly stated.

    If Ephraim had not become a fullness of gentiles by the time of the 1st century, then Paul was incorrect to quote hosea 1, which was about the northern kingdom of Israel, as being fulfilled with the inclusion of gentiles with Jews in the vessels of mercy.

    No disagreements that Israel will never be destroyed. I would agree that their "expansion" did not happen under the old covenant. I believe it did and is and will happen under the new covenant, for the kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed
     
  20. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    According the book of Deuteronomy, first would come the blessings, then the curses, followed by land restoration, and finally, circumcision of the heart.

    Deuteronomy 30:1-6 “When all these things come upon you—the blessings and curses I have set before you—and you call them to mind in all the nations to which the LORD your God has banished you, and when you and your children return to the LORD your God and obey His voice with all your heart and all your soul according to everything I am giving you today, then He will restore you from captivitya and have compassion on you and gather you from all the nations to which the LORD your God has scattered you. Even if you have been banished to the ends of the earth, He will gather you and return you from there. And the LORD your God will bring you into the land your fathers possessed, and you will take possession of it. He will cause you to prosper and multiply more than your fathers. The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, and you will love Him with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live

    The blessings were poured out:
    1 kings 8:56 “Blessed be the LORD, who has given rest to His people Israel according to all that He promised. Not one word has failed of all the good promises He made through His servant Moses.

    The curses were poured out:
    Daniel 9:13 Just as it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us, yet we have not sought the favor of the LORD our God by turning from our iniquities and giving attention to Your truth.

    Israel was restored following the Babylonian exile:
    Jeremiah 29:10-14 “For thus says the LORD: When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place. For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you. You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the LORD, and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations and all the places where I have driven you, declares the LORD, and I will bring you back to the place from which I sent you into exile.

    Psalm 85:1 LORD, you were favorable to your land; you restored the fortunes of Jacob.

    Heart were circumcised following Christ.
    Colossians 2:11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,

    Romans 2:29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

    So we see that while land restoration was fulfilled under the old covenant, circumcision of the heart was not. From the NT we know circumcision of the heart to be fulfilled under the new covenant as performed by the Spirit.

    OT scripture declares land restoration fulfilled following the babylonian exile (curses poured out). However, unlike circumcision of the heart, NT scripture makes no mention of land restoration, so what gives us the support to say it was carried over? Because there's no mention of its cancellation? that would be known as an argument from ignorance, which is always fallacy in informal logic.



    I would argue the laws that carried over into the new covenant were to love God and love thy neighbor. This is evidenced in the NT scripture

    James 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.

    Romans 13:9-10 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

    Galatians 5:13-14 For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

    Doing the works of these laws do not justify us before God nor do they grant us salvation, for God does not need our works, but they do justify our faith before others.

    NT scripture tells us what laws "carry" over into the new covenant agreement. We know we are not under the 613 commands of moses as Christ fulfilled those righteous standards in us (romans 8:4). Thus we are now free to love God and love our neighbor (galatians 5:13-14).

    The NT scripture also tells us what the better promises of the new covenant are.

    Forgiveness of sins (matthew 26:28)
    Eternal life (John 3:16)
    Kingdom inheritance (matthew 25:34)
    Fruit of the spirit (Galatians 5:22)
    Co-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17)

    Where does the NT mention land restoration as part of the new covenant?


    I don't deny that these things are literal.

    Only a remnant of natural Israel would be saved (romans 9:27). How is "all of Israel saved"? It is saved by Part of natural Israel being hardened in the 1st century leading to the crucifixion, while the fullness of the nations, of whom some descended from Ephraim, are included with the remnant of Jews in the vessels of mercy.

    I agree that even though Jacob was declare restored from captivity, that it was not done fully. And what I mean by not done fully is not done spiritually. The old covenant and its law were a picture/shadow that pointed to Christ. The earthly picture/shadow ( the type) was fulfilled with Israel being restored from captivity when they returned from Babylonian exile.

    We can see that earthly picture was fulfilled as even the Jews themselves believed they were freed in human terms.

    John 8:33 They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?”


    But the ultimate fulfillment (the antitype) is found in Christ. For it is Christ who truly frees. Thus I would argue the ultimate fulfillment of Jacob's restoration is found in Christ.

    John 8:34-35 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

    Galatians 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

    The old covenant was the type, the new covenant the antitype. The old covenant was an earthly picture, the new covenant is the heavenly truth.

    Do you believe being born again means to literally come out of your mother's womb a 2nd time? If you don't, then why do you believe the earthly picture of the old covenant is the reality?



    Debatable indication. If it was explicitly mentioned, it would be much harder to debate. Jesus makes no mention of land restoration nor to the apostles.

    Sure just show us where the new covenant mentions it then.

    The NT declares the old covenant obsolete (hebrews 8:13), of which land restoration is a part of. That is evidence.

    Declaring because the NT does not mention land restoration cancellation that therefore land restoration is still in effect, would be an argument from ignorance, which is always a logical fallacy.



    For starters genetic studies do not,without a doubt, define who is Jewish and who is not. There is not one concrete study out there that has been able to prove who is a Jew and who is not. So DNA cannot really tell us. DNA tests make the best estimated guess. They are not 100%. For example there are 4 haplogroups that are in higher frequencies in European Ashkenazi Jews, but "rarely" found in non Ashkenazi Europeans, and yet only half of European Ashkenazi Jews actually have one of these 4 haplogroups. So what does this tell us? only that you may or may not be Jewish but we don't really know, its just a best guess. So the fact that one of those haplogroups was found in my DNA doesn't 100% prove i have Jewish ancestory, as europeans with no Jewish descent can have it on a rare basis. However, I still could be Jewish as no one knows our family genealogy going back even 200 years.

    from 23andme: Can 23andMe identify Jewish ancestry?

    Four mitochondrial haplogroups are found at high frequency in people of Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry and rarely found in non-Ashkenazi Europeans: N1b, K1a1b1a, K1a9, and K2a2a. Therefore, Europeans carrying one of these haplogroups likely have Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry on their mothers-only line. However, approximately half of people with Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry do not carry one of these four haplogroups, so having a different haplogroup does not mean you don't have Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry.

    Paternal DNA (y chromosome) tells that 70% of Israeli Jews and 82% of Palestinian Arabs belong to the same gene pools. So, who is to say that Arabs are not Jews as well.

    "Our recent study of high-resolution microsatellite haplotypes demonstrated that a substantial portion of Y chromosomes of Jews (70%) and of Palestinian Muslim Arabs (82%) belonged to the same chromosome pool"

    source: ebel A, Filon D, Weiss DA, Weale M, Faerman M, Oppenheim A, Thomas MG (December 2000). "High-resolution Y chromosome haplotypes of Israeli and Palestinian Arabs reveal geographic substructure and substantial overlap with haplotypes of Jews". Human Genetics. 107 (6): 630–41.

    Maternal DNA (x chromosome) suggests that 80% of Ashkenazi Jews come from European descent.

    "80 percent of Ashkenazi maternal ancestry comes from women indigenous to Europe, and [only] 8 percent from the Near East, with the rest uncertain"

    Source: A substantial prehistoric European ancestry amongst Ashkenazi maternal lineages

    So from a genetic standpoint, what does this tell us? Modern day Ashkenazi Jews have a majority patrilineal descent from the near east, but a majority matrilineal descent from europe. In other words, men from the near east married women from europe.

    Interestingly enough, modern day Jews defines jewishness by matrilineal descent, despite 80% of Ashkenazi Jews having european descent on the mother's side.

    "According to traditional Jewish law (halacha), Jewishness is passed down through the mother. So, if your mother was Jewish, you are too. This position is held by most members of the Conservative and Orthodox communities. The Reform movement recognizes the children of one Jewish parent — mother or father — as a Member of the Tribe if the child is raised Jewish.

    But why does traditional Jewish law favor matrilineal descent?

    Some people say that Judaism goes by matrilineal descent because we always know who a person’s mother is, and we don’t always know who a person’s father is."

    From: Who Is a Jew: Matrilineal Descent | My Jewish Learning

    If one can actually trace their genealogical records back to pre-desolation Israel, well then they can actually prove they descend from natural Israel.


    Additionally, from a religious standpoint, modern day Israel does not follow the religion of pre-desolation hebrews. They follow from Babylonian Talmud, which came in the years after the destruction the temple. It is a man made religion.



    So then the present day land of Israel is in fact not where Israel will dwell forever, as it will be changed at the creation of the new heavens and new earth, correct?
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
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