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Featured Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by claninja, Jun 19, 2019.

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  1. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This is much ado about very little. The exact location of the Temple mount has been debated. If these men you have cited are wrong, then the actual site itself will be revealed and the Temple will be built in the correct location.
     
  2. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    While I agree that only "Christian Jews" will inherit the promised land (Rom. 9:27, Zech. 13:9) and the regathering of all the people of Israel to their homeland will be completed by the Messiah Himself, they will still be the Jewish state of Israel, but rather a remainder of the nation we see today. But the enmity that took place between the Israel and Judah was when Israel was a divided into two nations. Now, no longer. Christianity is a faith comprised of people from all walks of life, nationalities, ethnicities, and languages but it, in and of itself, was not created from a bloodline like the nation of Israel was.

    The current relationship between Christians and the unbelieving Jews is not so much described as a total enmity as it is a love/hate relationship. One the one hand, many of them do despise the Gospel message having been blinded to its truth, but on the other hand, they see the Christians who recognize their historic and scriptural claim to their homeland and their right to exist as a nation and people, and who want to see them live in peace and prosperity, as their allies.

    The Jews who are the most hostile to the Gospel are the ones who are the most religious. The less religious of the Jews tend to be more tolerant of it. There are many other people who actually hate us more than the Jews do.

    If you think that Jesus failed in His mission if the Jews happened to be all of Israel, then it is you who has demonstrated a poor understanding the mission of Jesus. If the Gospel is being preached throughout the world to all people, then there is no failure.






    The world will be a different place when the sun shines brighter than it does today and due to the changes that will take place when Christ returns, the sun will not be the destructive instrument in that day that it would otherwise be. It seems that in your mind, God must be limited in His power as you seem to think that the present laws of nature are going to be the same then as they are now.
     
  3. Danoh

    Danoh Newbie

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    Again, Rom. 11:26's "all Israel" is in light of Rom. 9:6's "...they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"

    This is the same model as Romans 11's...

    11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

    Verses 3, for example, depicts a model of
    Rom. 9:6's "...they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"

    Things that differ are not...the same, 2 Tim. 2:15-18.
     
  4. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    We Christians are 'tolerated; by the Jews because of the false belief they are still the chosen people of God. We have many organizations that help the Jews and they receive millions in aid from us, billions from the USA govt, thru the pro Israel lobby.
    Your reply here is anomalous and doesn't address the issue.

    I know Jesus was successful; I am an example of it.
    I also know that I have an Israelite ancestry, thru my Scottish/English heritage. But the fact of the ten tribes being still scattered among the nations, is hidden from all who believe false theories and doctrines.
    Many prophesies prove their continued separation, which was for a decreed time period, Ezekiel 4:4-6, not yet completed and the fact of the Promises to them when they do rejoin, not being fulfilled yet. Ezekiel 37:21-18
    The Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath, is an event years before the Return.
    The 3 main prophesies that describe the Return; Zechariah 14:3, Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11, do not say He comes then in fire.

    The prophecy of Isaiah 30:26 does not say or infer, that the sun will change permanently, just a flash as it explodes out a huge mass that will strike the earth and literally fulfil all the graphic prophesies about that Day.
    The Laws of nature will not be changed, why should they be? Just to suit your peculiar beliefs?
     
  5. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    One of us is very confused if you think God wants men to rebuild a temple in the modern city of Jerusalem, so that animal sacrifices can be renewed.

    Why would you think God is going to make sure lost Orthodox Jews are going to build a temple in the original location?


    .
     
  6. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Christ will be ruling from a Temple and as for the animal sacrifices, they, as we know it, will be short-lived.
     
  7. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Can you show any scripture from the New Testament which says Christ will be ruling in the future from a temple made with human hands?

    Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,


    The New Covenant temple is described below, by Peter.


    1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
    1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
    1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
    1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
    1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
    1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
    1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

    .
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2019
  8. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The millennial reign is found only in Revelation chapter 20 and other than its length of time and the resurrection of martyred saints who will reign with Christ, plus the imprisonment of Satan for that thousand years, admittedly, nothing else is said. The most that you read about events relating to this era is in the Old Testament. Ezekiel chapters 40-47 make it very clear that a King will be ruling from a Temple on earth; nothing that Ezekiel has described in those chapters has yet taken place as they take place at a time that Christ is ruling from the earth.

    Often times, in order to gain adequate insight and understanding into any given matter, both Old and New Testament scriptures must be consulted.
     
  9. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Apostles still regarded them as a chosen people of God despite the persistent unbelief of most of them. (Acts 3:25-26, Rom. 11:28-29) in the sense that God, because of promises made to their forefathers, chose them to be a blessing to the rest of the world, the greatest blessing being Christ through whom salvation and the forgiveness of sins is offered, but they have also been an instrument of blessing in many other ways of we are largely unaware and for which they are not given the credit due to them.

    The Apostles never counted them as being a people cast away by God and neither should we lest we find ourselves boasting against the branches of the tree into which we have been grafted. (Rom. 11:18-24)



    Anyone who has accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior serves as a testimony and an example of the ongoing success of His mission, but Anglo Saxon Heritage, in and of itself, does not make you a descendant of Israel. I have Anglo-Saxon blood in me myself, but that does not make me an Israelite by descent. What would make me an Israelite by blood would be if any of my ancestors were Jewish but to the best of my knowledge that is not in my history. Further verification would be if my DNA contained any genes unique only to Jews or those of Jewish descent.




    We do know that the seven year tribulation, which is the period during which the entire world will face judgment is years before the return of our Lord, but the worst of His wrath will not be years before His return but just prior. There will be no doubt in anyone's mind that when the worst of His wrath comes, that the cataclysms that are to take place are His doing.

    As for Isaiah 30:26, the change in the sun described, and not only the sun, but the moon also, does infer a permanent change. Just as the world before the great flood was not the same as it presently is today, the world, under Christ, will not be the same as it is now.

    But if we attempt to determine how things were in the past and are going to be the future by how things are presently, then we really do place a limit on the power of God in our thinking and apparently, you must think that God is unable to reshape all that would be required to protect the earth from the destructive affects of a sun seven times brighter than it is today while empowering it to benefit from its positive affects.
     
  10. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The above is a good, honest statement of the truth.
    I greatly appreciate that.

    If we can prove the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order, and we accept the writings of the other New Testament passages like the following...

    Matthew 25:31-46

    2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

    2 Timothy 4:1

    2 Peter 3:10-13

    Revelation 11:18

    Revelation 16:15-16

    then the Premill interpretation of the Old Testament cannot be correct.

    At one time I believed the Premill doctrine to be correct. The problem was I could not get it to agree the the passages found above. Then I knew something was wrong with what I believed.
    The only way I could get the doctrine to work was by ignoring the passages found above.

    .
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2019
  11. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I am afraid the model is not the same in the sense that Romans chapter 9 makes a contrast between the Israel of the flesh (by lineage) and the Israel by adoption (the Church) Not all who are of Israel are Israel in the sense that they have not placed their faith in Christ the way Abraham placed His faith in God for that which was promised to him, yet we are made the children of Abraham by adoption because we have placed our faith in Christ the same way that Abraham placed that very faith in God which He credited to Abraham for righteousness. (Jas. 2:23)

    Thus the entire point made in Romans chapter 9 is that being a Jew by blood, in and of itself, does not gain favor with God. It never has. But it is sincere faith that obtains favor with God.

    Romans chapter 11 is simply about the preservation of Israel as a people and nation and their eventual salvation. (Rom. 11:26) Those who have and are turning to Christ presently are that remnant within the nation and people according to the election of grace (Rom. 11:5) but are not presently the nation as a whole.

    That chapter also goes on to explain that they can be reconciled to God again if they do not continue in unbelief which is why we are warned not to magnify ourselves against the branches that were broken off (Rom. 11:18-24) and that if their diminishing and casting away of them was used for the salvation of the rest of the world, how much more so if the Jews are reconciled to God and have bestowed upon them the fullness that they are destined to have? (Rom. 11:12
     
  12. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    When I said that we do not have any information about the Millennial reign in the New Testament other than what is written, I also mentioned that there is more relating to Christ's reign upon the earth throughout the rest of the scriptures, most of which are found in the Old Testament but what characterizes the Millennial reign is a subject best discussed and debated on another thread.

    What gives Premills the cause to believe that Christ will reign in a Temple is Ezekiel chapters 40-47 which speaks of a Temple of a size and description previous temples do not match and of a time on earth that has not taken place and which can only be tied to the reign of Christ.

    The challenge for the Preterist is to prove that everything described in those chapters has already been fulfilled. Attempting to call symbolic what the context of those chapters have not called or implied to be symbolic will not get you anywhere.

    Another challenge, as it appears you yourself have admitted, that another challenge is to prove that the book of Revelation is not in chronological order, but from a contextual stand point, it is presentd in a chronogical order in its overall format, but not in a linear fashion.

    For example, Revelation chapter 11:18 announces the time of God's wrath and the judgment of the dead, but contrary to Preterist claim, there are other things that must take place before the time of wrath which are the events described in chapters 12 and 13. After the events of chapter 12 and 13, the rest of the chapters up until chapter 19 are about the wrath of God being poured out upon the earth and this present world system.

    Revelation is not the only portion of scripture where we see this happen. But not only does it have to be proven that the book of Revelation does not follow a chronology, it has to be proven that the entire book of Revelation is symbolic and not literal.

    The Premil will agree with you that there is symbology in the book of Revelation where the context declares or implies it. But they will not declare symbolism where the context does not allow; at least I do not.

    As for the passages you cited which you believe to be problematic for Premil doctrine, most of those passages do not pose a challenge to Pre-millennialism as you claim. From an objective standpoint, the only passage that appears to be the most challenging for Premillennial adherents is 2 Peter 3:10-13 but at the same time, scriptures such as Revelation chapter 20 are just as challenging to Preterists, especially since the resurrection of the martyred saints and the unbelievers do not take place on the same day. As is written in Revelation 20:5, the rest of the dead do not face judgment.

    What is made clear is that before this present earth is burned up and replaced with a new earth, the final judgment must take place, thus making it appear to place the fulfillment of 2 Peter 3:10-13 at the end of the thousand year reign.

    Were Peter and John contradicting one another? That is unacceptable as such would destroy the inerrancy of the scriptures and thus place their degree of divine inspiration in question.

    Was John told more than Peter? That is not out of the realm of possibility since one portion of scriptures have been known to go into more detail about a certain subject than others and unfulfilled prophecy is no exception which is why if we are to obtain an adequate understanding of what has come to pass and what hasn't, we need to consult the scriptures from beginning to end concerning anything having to do with the end times.

    I have done that with a number of different subjects and when the full counsel of scripture is consulted, greater clarity is received.
     
  13. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    First of all you need to know you have not been talking to a "Preterist".

    I am a "Parital-Preterist", in the same way that Christ was a "Partial-Preterist" in the Olivet Discourse.

    This means I am also a "Partial-Futurist".

    It is my understanding that most of the Book of Revelation has not yet been fulfilled.

    There is one certain way to get the New Covenant temple in 1 Peter 2:4-10 to agree with the description of the temple in the Book of Ezekiel.
    If you put all of the Christians in the world shoulder-to-shoulder, how big of a temple would it make?

    Peter said Christ is the cornerstone in that temple and I believe him, because Christ said the same thing in Matthew chapter 21.
    Peter also said we are stones in that temple.
    The Old Testament temple was the shadow, or type, of the New Covenant temple.

    In Colossians 2:16-17 Paul reveals the fact that the foods, feasts, and sabbaths were a "shadow" of Christ.

    He is our Sabbath rest every day of the week, in the New Covenant.

    The New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13.

    Why would we think God would go back to a weaker, obsolete covenant, in an Old Covenant temple, during a future time?
    What do the verses below say?


    Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.


    Heb_10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

    .
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2019
  14. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    When I address Peterism, I address all forms of it but if you thought I was lumping you in with full-Preterists, then I apologize.



    That temple is still being added to, but the Temple described in Ezekiel is given measurements, dimensions, features, and borders that cannot be applied to people and that is where reconciling the cited passage in Peter with Ezekiel chapters 40-47 meets its challenge.






    The Temple was meant to be a place for God to dwell among His people. It was never initially meant to pass away with the Old Covenant albeit a change in its function was required by the New Testament.

    Ezekiel chapters 40-47 make it clear that the Lord will be ruling from the Temple described. It would take a detailed study to go over what the functions of this Temple will be in comparison to the temples before as such would be required to better address the issues surrounding this Temple which would best be done in another setting for which more space could be afforded to do so.
     
  15. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Either you are confused, or the New Testament authors are confused below, if you think God now dwells in temples made by human hands.

    The New Covenant temple is found below. Believers can easily see the New Covenant temple, by looking in the mirror.
    Your Bible says the same thing.



    1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?


    Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.


    Some of us cannot tell the difference between the Old Testament types and shadows, and the New Testament reality.

    Are we now required to circumcise our male children?

    Do we now offer animals for our sin, in a manmade temple?

    Does a Levitical priest now offer a sacrifice for us?

    Must we do no work sundown Friday to sundown Saturday, or be stoned?

    Why did the Apostle Paul compel the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage" in Galatians 4:24-31?
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2019
  16. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But from where does a King who walks among men rule? Upon where does He place His throne?
     
  17. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Jesus stated, in regards to the temple destruction, that Jerusalem would be trampled by the gentiles until the times of the gentiles was fulfilled (luke 21:24).

    Revelation states Jerusalem is trampled by the nations for 42 months (revelation 11:2).

    Paul states the earthly Jerusalem represents the old covenant, while the heavenly Jerusalem represents the new covenant. Paul adds the those of the earthly Jerusalem will never inherit with those of the heavenly Jerusalem (galatians 4:24-31).

    From the time of the initiation of the Jewish Roman war (66ad) until the destruction of the temple (70ad) was a total of 3.5 years (42 months). The earthly old covenant Jerusalem was forever cast out.

    Under the new covenant, we no longer come to the earthly Jerusalem which was cast out in 70ad, we come to the heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22). And as Jerusalem under the new covenant is no longer the earthly one, it can no longer be trampled.



    And this is related how to land restoration?

    Correct, I did state the prophets speak in riddles and symbolic visions as attested by scripture (numbers 12:6-8, hosea 12:10).

    There seems to be a misunderstanding based on your response. It is not the gentiles as a whole that Paul is calling the 10 northern tribes, that is not what I meant and that would be incorrect.

    Paul quotes hosea 1:10 and 2:23, which is about the northern kingdom of Israel, as being fulfilled with the inclusion of the gentiles with the Jews in the vessels of mercy. How is that possible?

    1.) the divorced, exiled, and scattered northern kingdom became "not my people" (hosea 1:9). Thus they became as the gentiles, which were already not God's people

    2.) By God including the gentiles, of whom some, but not all, descended from the exiled and divorced northern kingdom of Israel, with the Jews in the vessels of mercy, he fulfills his promise to the northern kingdom (hosea 1:10)

    God's relationship with mankind involves a covenant. Those in the covenant are his people, those outside of the covenant are not his people. Currently God is relationship with his people through the new covenant. Those not in this covenant are not His people.

    So the northern kingdom was mixing with the nations prior to the exile (hosea 7:8), and then all of the sudden started mixing less after their deportation and resettling throughout the Assyrian empire?

    Can you elaborate on this?

    This again assumes that revelation 7 is literal and not a symbolic vision.

    I have no disagreements with Israel's wandering in the desert for 40 years prior to entering the promise land foreshadowing 1st century Israel's 40 year time period (30ad-70ad) entering into God's Sabbath rest.

    Hebrews 3:16-19 For who were the ones who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? And with whom was God angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they would never enter His rest? Was it not to those who disobeyed? So we see that it was because of their unbelief that they were unable to enter.

    Hebrews 4:8-11 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. There remains, then, a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For whoever enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from His. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same pattern of disobedience.

    However, we also know that the nation of Israel foreshadowed Christ. For Just as Israel was called out of Egypt, so was Christ.

    Hosea 11:1-2 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son. But the more I called Israel, the farther they departed from Me.

    Matthew 2:14-15 So he got up, took the Child and His mother by night, and withdrew to Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. This fulfilled what the Lord had spoken through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called My Son.

    I'm simply stating that the nation of Israel foreshadowed Christ, with the BIG difference in where the the nation of Israel failed, Jesus fulfilled in every way.

    Jesus was called out the Egypt, so was Israel
    Jesus was tested in the wilderness, so was Israel
    Jesus was under the law, so was Israel
    Jesus became the curse of the law, Israel received the curse of the law
    Jesus rose again, Israel (those who believed) was made alive through Christ

    These parallels are known as types and antitypes. The new testament is full of these parallels.

    However, the NT does not make one mention of land restoration.


    God's people are not those outside of the new covenant. In fact, those outside of the new covenant inherit nothing with those of the new covenant

    Galatians 4:30 But what does the Scripture say? “Expel the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.

    Paul states only a remnant of natural Israel would be saved.
    Romans 9;27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the Israelites is like the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

    We already know that the land promise made to Abraham and his offspring was to Jesus. The land promise is found fulfilled in Christ having all authority over and ON EARTH, for the earth is his and the fullness there of.

    Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,”g meaning One, who is Christ.

    So please show where in the NT that land restoration is for those in the new covenant.
     
  18. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Based on 2 Peter 3:10-13, it cannot be upon this rotten, sin-cursed, world, which will be burned up on "the day of the Lord", when He, "comes as a thief".

    What did Paul say in Galatians 4:25-26?

    What did the author of the Book of Hebrews say in Hebrews 12:22-24?

    What did Jesus tell the woman at the well, when she said earthly Jerusalem is the place to worship, in John 4:20-24?


    Peter, Paul, the author of Hebrews, and Jesus, all agree, but they do not agree with you.

    .
     
  19. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As far as holding jurisdiction over Jerusalem is concerned the time of the Gentiles came to an end in 1967 when the Jews took full control of the city. Before then, the Gentiles occupied Jerusalem for far longer than the 42 months you equate with the four year Jewish/Roman war, and if the earthly Jerusalem is forever cast out, why does it continue to exist?



    But the heavenly Jerusalem has not yet come to us and until it does, we will be going to the earthly Jerusalem to await the heavenly Jerusalem which we will not see until after the new heavens and the new earth are created and again, if the presently existing Jerusalem was cast out in 70 A.D., why does it continue to exist still?



    How else could Jerusalem have a central role in this forthcoming event?



    He draws no relation between the ten northern tribes and the Gentiles at all and while the cited passage of Hosea appear to be about the ten northern tribes, Paul has told us that it is not. What He does say is that the Gentiles have now been included with the Jews in the vessels of mercy and cited Hosea 1:10 and 2:23 as evidence that God had the Gentiles in mind before hand.



    But they did not become Gentiles and what Gentiles descended from them?



    Is the Assyrian empire the only empire and kingdom throughout which they were dispersed?



    Did not the Babylonians leave some people behind after taking the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem into captivity?



    How could Revelation 7 be anything but literal?



    How could the forty year wandering in the desert be foreshadowing 1st century's 40 year time period which ended with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple?



    Israel's exile from Egypt is only regarded as a foreshadow of Christ returning from Egypt after a brief exile because of a threat on His life, but only because the Gospels say so. As for the rest, they do not qualify as foreshadows because they are never called foreshadows. If anything at all they are contrasts between the failures of Israel and the successes of our Lord.



    Yet it is because of their eventual receiving of the New Covenant that the Jews retain their inheritance.




    That remnant being large enough to continue abiding as a viable people and nation. (Zech. 13:9)




    Does He also not have joint-heirs?



    Land restoration pertains to Israel only. No other nation or people are given such a promise.
     
  20. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If the reign of Christ were to be established upon the earth today, it would not be nearly as rotten and sin cursed as it is now.
     
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