Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

[claninja]

But not everything associated with the Old Covenant passed away with the Old Covenant which is why it is vitally important to understand what has been abolished by the New Covenant and what transcends both Covenants.

I believe the old covenant was taken away at the 1st advent. Scripture is very clear on this.

Hebrews 10:9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second.

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

however, as you make the claim that the conditional promises of the old covenant are still somehow in effect, despite the old covenant no longer being in effect, the burden of proof is on you to provide specific NT scripture that states so.

I will admit, I do not know anything about this period but I do know that it was not the fulfillment of Ezekiel chapter 37 because not everything foretold in that chapter did not happen in that period nor has yet happened.

I don't believe the Hasmonean dynasty fulfills Ezekiel 37 either.

However, you stated Israel was restored to the land under the Persian empire but never became an independent nation until 1948. This was an untrue statement, as Israel was an independent nation from around 110 BCE to 63BCE.

You don't believe God yet dwells his people?
Ezekiel 37:27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be My people.

Paul disagrees.
2 Corinthians 6:16 What agreement can exist between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be My people.”

Paul was referencing that passage of scripture as it pertained to the Gentiles.

Correct, Paul was applying a passage written specifically to the northern kingdom onto the gentiles. Thus by the gentiles being grafted into Israel, the Northern kingdom is united to the southern kingdom under "one head" who is Christ.

That both Jew and Gentile are one in Christ is a fulfillment in the world receiving reconciliation with God in Christ,

Both Jew and gentile being one in Christ is the fulfillment of Hosea 1:10 and 2:23 as quoted by Paul in Romans 9:24-26.

 

[claninja]

Deuteronomy 30:1-6 does not strictly refer to the Babylonian captivity, but to any time the Jews are driven out of their land due to persistent sin and rebellion against God, but who then later repent and as a result are returned to their land.

Yes it does. God restored Israel back to the land after the Babylonian exile. Then near the end of the nation of Israel being under the old covenant, God sent Christ to redeem them from the sins and sent the Spirit to given them a new heart under the new covenant.

As it pertains to Israel as a whole, that would have been the case if they had not rejected Christ, but because they rejected Christ, they remained dead in their sins and uncircumcised in their hearts. But that will not last. (Rom. 11:26) Nevertheless, their rejection of Christ delayed much of might have otherwise been fulfilled much sooner in history.

Paul states only a remnant of Israel would be saved.

Romans 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the Israelites is like the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

Paul also states all of Israel will be saved.
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved.

How is this possible? Because not all who descend from Israel are true Israel.

romans 9:6 it is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

Thus by God having vessels of mercy (true Israel) of the remnant of Jews with grafted in gentiles he saves all of Israel. While the vessels of dishonor (not true Israel) become like Sodom and Gomorrah.

Just because land restoration may be contained in the law does not make the fulfillment thereof dependent on the law. In fact, land restoration, along with reconciliation with God, was foretold by the prophets as well.

promissory clauses are dependent on the contract. If the contract is null and void, so are its promissory clauses.

Land restoration from exile was foretold by the prophets prior to and while Israel was in exile, while Israel was still under the old covenant.

No, I believe that Jesus is the Shepherd that He says He is. He will be that Shepherd who will rule over the nation and from there, the entire earth as King. But as for David’s part and what that means for sure, we do not yet know how that will play out because that is a prophecy not yet fulfilled.

So just to clarify, you believe "my servant david" as the "one shepherd" is about Christ?

Ezekiel 34:23 And I will set up over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he shall feed them: he shall feed them and be their shepherd

2,300 morning and evenings would have amounted to roughly four years and would not have qualified as a distant time. 2,300 years would better qualify as a distant time. But the coming of Christ began an indefinite period of time. Daniel’s prophetic time clock had come to a halt. Before the coming of Christ, the weeks (each one being seven years) progressed normally, but when He came to earth, the flow of the prophetic timeclock was altered, which is why we are told that we do not know when the return of the Lord will be.

What scripture teaches to interpret that the "prophetic timeclock" was altered?

This doesn't address why 2,300 years would be a distant time, but 2,000 would be near.

From the restoration of Jerusalem and the temple to the coming of the Messiah were 7 weeks and sixty-two weeks; (Dan. 9:25) a total of 69 weeks. It is in the 69th week that Jesus was crucified and was then raised again.

Jesus was cut off AFTER the 69th week, not at the end of the 69th week.
Daniel 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing

The Jews rejected their Messiah and thus delayed fulfillment of those weeks.

Where does scripture say the rejection by the Jews delays fulfillment of prophecy?

2. The Gospel needs time to go throughout all the world.

By the time Paul wrote colossians, he believe the gospel had been preached to all creation under heaven.

Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

3. The Church has not always been faithful in going about the Father’s business.

What does this have to do with "delaying" prophecy? The church is not a building. It's a collection of all those in Christ. Claiming to be a Christian but not following Christ does not mean one is part of the church.

4. God is giving people time to repent. He does not desire to bring judgment. (2 Pet. 3:9)

God gave the old covenant nation of Israel 40 years to repent before there destruction. remember a day is as 1,000 years AND 1,000 years is like a day. 2 Peter 3:9 is a reference to God not living in time.

The Romans had ruled virtually all of Europe, North Africa, Asia Minor, and some of the Middle East. The empire did extend into Germany but it was a difficult area to maintain control of due to Roman forces being stretched thin. I never said that the Roman civil wars did not necessarily qualify as wars and rumors of wars.

This doesn't answer the question. Were the Parthians a part of the roman empire. Were the Germanic tribes a part of the roman empire.

Jesus began with the destruction of the temple but then shifted to what was to come upon the world at large, not just the Roman empire.

No he didn't. He was focused on the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple at the end of the age.

I never said that. What I did say is that earthquakes, famines, pestilences, wars, and enmity between nations and kingdoms have escalated since then and have become more widespread

What evidence do you have the earthquakes, famines, pestilence, and wars have escalated more so now, then 1,000 or 2,000 or 3,000 years ago?

 

[keras]

Thus the "in that very place" is land Israel where God declared the gentiles his people in the 1st century.

Not sure how you are extrapolating that to some future where all believers live in the present land of Israel.

Making the fulfilment of the Land Promises to be just a declaration, is quite wrong.
The holy Land does have great significance, God gave it to the Patriarchs and their descendants. It does feature in the end times.

It is plainly prophesied that the Lord's faithful people will be gathered into the holy Land, soon after it is cleared by the Day of fiery wrath; the Sixth Seal devastation. Psalms 107, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, + They are seen there when the AC conquers them; Daniel 7:23, Revelation 13:7

 

[keras]

From every nation, they will come:

Isaiah, the prophet, commissioned by God, to restore the survivors of Israel. Isaiah 49:5-6.
Isaiah 66:15-16 See: the Lord is coming in fire, His chariots are like a whirlwind, bringing retribution with His furious anger and His rebuke with flaming fire. The Lord will judge with fire and sword, He will test all mankind and many will be killed by Him.

The Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath – the next prophetic event. This fire judgement upon all the earth, will be by a Coronal Mass Ejection explosion of the sun, that is the only thing that will literally fulfil all the detailed prophesies about that Day. It will affect all the earth, but will specifically devastate the Middle East. Isaiah 30:26-30, Isaiah 63:1-6, Revelation 6:12-17, Jeremiah 12:14, Psalms 18:7-15, Isaiah 24:1-6, Malachi 4:1 & 3, Amos 1

Isaiah 66:17:18a All those who practice magic rites and divination, those who eat unclean foods – all will meet their end, for I know their thoughts and deeds.

Witchcraft, occultism, false religion, disobedience to God’s Laws, etc., all who do these things will die. Isaiah 48:22, Jeremiah 30:23-24, Revelation 22:15. Micah 5:12

Isaiah 66:18b-19 I am going to gather people of every tongue, they will come to see My glory. I shall put a sign on them and some of these survivors I will send out to the nations, to proclaim My Gospel among them. They will go to distant places that have not heard of My glory. Irrefutable proof that this happens before the Return, as then: every eye shall see Him. Revelation 1:7

The Lord’s people, all faithful Christians, are gathered from all parts of the earth. 12,000 are selected from each of the 12 designated groups and sent out to proclaim the good news of the coming Kingdom of God. Revelation 7:3-8 & 14:1-7, Isaiah 49:6. As it was done before: Luke 10:1-10

Isaiah 66:20-21 From every nation, your people will be brought, on every kind of conveyance, coming as an offering to the Lord on His holy mountain. They will come to Jerusalem, just as the ancient Israelites brought their grain offerings. The Lord will select some of them to be His priests. Psalms 107:1-43, Rev 5:10

Soon after the Lord’s Day of vengeance, all the Lord’s people, will be motivated to emigrate to the holy Land. Ezekiel 36:10-12, Ezekiel 39:25-29, Isaiah 35:1-10, Jeremiah 30:10-14,

Isaiah 62:1-5 ​

They will live there in great prosperity and peace for several years, until the Anti-Christ comes to power. He will break his 7 year treaty of peace with Beulah, Daniel 9:27, and take control of the country, sitting in the Temple. 2 Thess 2:4 This will start the 3½ year Tribulation period. The faithful Christians will be taken to a place of safety on earth, during this time. Zechariah 14:2b, Revelation 12:14.

Then Jesus Christ will Return in His glory, to reign for 1000 years.

Isaiah 66:22-23 As the new heavens and earth, which I am making will endure before Me, so will your name and descendants endure. Every new moon and Sabbath, all mankind will come to bow before Me.

Isaiah 66:24 As they go out, they will see the bodies of those who rebelled against Me, where the devouring worm never dies and the fire is not quenched. All mankind will view them with horror. Zechariah 14:12. Ref: REB, NIV. Verses abridged.

 

[jgr]

The Jews rejected their Messiah and thus delayed fulfillment of those weeks.

Messiah disagrees.


Luke 18
31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

Luke 24
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.

John 19
28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.


It's all about Him.

 

[claninja]

Making the fulfilment of the Land Promises to be just a declaration, is quite wrong.
The holy Land does have great significance, God gave it to the Patriarchs and their descendants.

"just a declaration"? Not sure what you mean by that.

God unconditionally promised Abraham and his offspring the land:

Genesis 12:7 Then the LORD appeared to Abram and said, “I will give this land to your offspring.”

Genesis 13:15 for all the land that you see, I will give to you and your offspring forever

Genesis 15:18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your offspring I have given this land—from the river of Egypt to the great River Euphrates

However, the nation of Israel was promised the land conditionally under the old covenant.

Deuteronomy 28:63 Just as it pleased the LORD to make you prosper and to multiply you, so also it will please Him to exterminate you and destroy you. And you will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

So how can the land be promised unconditionally to Abraham and his offspring and yet conditionally to the nation of Israel? Because Jesus is the offspring to whom the promises were spoken.

Thus, as Paul states, the old covenant with its conditional promises do NOT annul the Unconditional promises made to Abraham and his offspring because Jesus is the offspring to whom the promises were spoken

Galatians 3:16-18 The promises (PLURAL) were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,” meaning One, who is Christ.
What I mean is this: The law that came 430 years later does not revoke the covenant previously established by God, so as to cancel the promise. For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God freely granted it to Abraham through a promise.

From where does Christ currently own the world, which includes the land of Israel? From heaven.

Ephesians 1:20-21 which He exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come.

It does feature in the end times.

I agree that the land of Israel played a role in the end of the age, for the temple was destroyed, in Jerusalem, at the end of the age.

Matthew 24:3 While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”

It is plainly prophesied that the Lord's faithful people will be gathered into the holy Land,

Please provide 1 new testament scripture that clearly and specifically states that they were looking forward to being gathered in the physical land of Israel so that we know your interpretation of the OT is correct.

 

[keras]

I agree that the land of Israel played a role in the end of the age, for the temple was destroyed, in Jerusalem, at the end of the age.

Funny that you should think the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD was the end of the age, because the Jewish people and Jerusalem continued until 135 AD, when Hadrian deported all the Jewish survivors and plowed over Jerusalem. Before then, of course; the Christian age started and continues today.
Your beliefs are very confused and don't fit the facts.

Please provide 1 new testament scripture that clearly and specifically states that they were looking forward to being gathered in the physical land of Israel so that we know your interpretation of the OT is correct.

The Disciple's looked forward to the Christianization of the world, when Jesus will Return and reign as King over all.
But before then, they knew there will be a time when the Holy Land will be occupied by the Lord's faithful people, as the OT plainly states. Isaiah 65:9 My chosen ones, those who serve Me, shall inherit the holy Land. Psalms 37:29, Jeremiah 12:9-14

So they wrote that the holy Land is our Christian heritage; Ephesians 1:11-14 & 3:6, Romans 8:16-18, Galatians 3:29
As Isaiah 56:1-8 tells us, it will be there that every faithful believer will worship the Lord, this is plainly stated scripture and you deny it's final fulfilment to your disgrace.

 

[claninja]

Funny that you should think the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD was the end of the age, because the Jewish people and Jerusalem continued until 135 AD,

Jerusalem and the Jewish people continue even after 135 ad. I was specifically talking about the temple. The temple was leveled in 70ad, just as Jesus prophesied it would be. This was prophesied to occur at the end of the age.

Matthew 24:3 While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”

As we can, the disciples believe they were living at the end of the age:

Acts 2:16-17 this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out My Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come

1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared

1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear-minded and sober, so that you can pray.

The Disciple's looked forward to the Christianization of the world, when Jesus will Return and reign as King over all.

no disagreements here.

So they wrote that the holy Land is our Christian heritage; Ephesians 1:11-14 & 3:6, Romans 8:16-18, Galatians 3:29

None of these NT scriptures specifically mention us living in the land of Israel.

 

[keras]

None of these NT scriptures specifically mention us living in the land of Israel.

It makes me wonder just what drives you.
What is your problem with all the faithful Christians occupying all of the holy Land? Isn't that what God wants? They display His glory. Ezekiel 39:27

That there are God's holy People in the Land of Israel, during the end times, is proved by Daniel 7:23 and Revelation 13:7. Plus Revelation 12:17, where Satan persecutes those who are not taken to a place of safety.

 

[claninja]

It makes me wonder just what drives you.

What drives me personally? Let's stick to content of the posts

Or

what drives me to not believe the land of Israel is destination for believers? Absence of NT scripture.

What is your problem with all the faithful Christians occupying all of the holy Land?

NT scripture makes no mention of the physical land of Israel being the final destination for believers. What's the problem with not believing something the Bible does not say?

Isn't that what God wants? They display His glory. Ezekiel 39:27

If God wants all Christians to live in the holy land, the NT would instruct us to do so. But it doesn't. There is not one NT verse that instructs believers that the land of Israel is the final destination.

As to your interpretation of Ezekiel 39:27, I would disagree. We know Ezekiel 39 was written while Israel was in exile. Ezekiel prophesied that Israel would be gathered form the lands of their enemies and that is when God would show his holiness in them in the sight of the nations. As I believe all the promises of God are yes in Christ, I believe this points to Christ. It is after Israel had returned from Babylonian exile, that Christ would come at the end of the age (Hebrews 9:26). It is through the nation of Israel (specifically Christ; salvation is from the Jews) that God would show is holiness in the sight of many nations.

Ezekiel 39:27 I bring them back from the peoples and gather them out of the lands of their enemies, I will show My holiness in them in the sight of many nations


Luke 2:32 light for revelation to the nations, and for glory to your people Israel.”

Acts 13:47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, “‘I have made you a light for the nations,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

Romans 16:26 But has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith—

That there are God's holy People in the Land of Israel, during the end times, is proved by Daniel 7:23 and Revelation 13:7. Plus Revelation 12:17, where Satan persecutes those who are not taken to a place of safety.

Again, I do not disagree that the land of Israel played a role at the end of the age, for the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed at the end of the age.

matthew 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

Even the apostles believed they were living at the end of the age.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour

1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers.

James 5:8-9 You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door.

 

[keras]

If God wants all Christians to live in the holy land, the NT would instruct us to do so. But it doesn't. There is not one NT verse that instructs believers that the land of Israel is the final destination.

This is where you go wrong, in your Bolded assertions.
Romans 9:24-26 plainly says we Christians will be called the sons of the Living God in the very place that the ancient Israelites were rejected.
We Christians do receive all the Promises of God to His faithful people, thru Jesus; 2 Corinthians 1:20, which includes all of the holy Land. Many prophesies make this clear; Revelation 7:9, Rev 12:6-17, Rev 13:7, + and dozens of OT scriptures tell about the great Second Exodus to the holy Land, of the Lord's people; from every race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18b

Ezekiel 39:27 I bring them back from the peoples and gather them out of the lands of their enemies, I will show My holiness in them in the sight of many nations

What the Jews showed in the first century, to many nations, was their intransigence and hatred for God's Salvation and nothing has changed nearly 2000 years later.

The end of the age in 70 AD? Just the end of the Second Temple age, nothing else.
We still await the end of the Christian era, when Jesus will Return and reign for 1000 years.
It will be His faithful people, those who stood firm in their faith, who will greet Him in Jerusalem, with the words; Blessed is He that comes in the Name of the Lord!

 

[Contenders Edge]

In response to my position that the old covenant was made null and void, you stated in post #339:

"Just because the Old Covenant was made null and void by the New Covenant, that does not mean that all that was under the Old Covenant was made obsolete as well as there were elements associated with the Old Covenant that were still carried over into the New covenant—the Ten Commandments and other moral laws for example."

This appears to be a strong inference here that you conclude I believe that all righteous requirements of the law were done away with.



The moral standards of God are for all, regardless if one is in a covenantal relationship with God or not.

Was it wrong for Cain to murder Abel prior to the old covenant? Yes

Would it have been wrong for Joseph to sleep with Potiphar's wife prior to the old covenant? Yes, Joseph calls it a wicked sin (genesis 39:4).

Again, the old covenant was AN AGREEMENT between the nation of Israel and God. If Israel obeyed all of God's laws (moral, civil, and ceremonial), they were blessed with Earthly blessings (Deuteronomy 28:1-14). However, if did not obey all of God's laws, then they would be cursed (Deuteronomy 28:15-68).

The promises of the old covenant are NOT Unconditional. The old covenant was a conditional contract. IF they obey = blessings. IF they disobey = curses.

This agreement was removed because it had a fault on the side of the nation of Israel. While God kept His end of the agreement, the nation of Israel could not because of their sinful nature.

Hebrews 8:7-8 For if that first covenant had been without fault, no place would have been sought for a second. But God found fault with the people and said



Good, we are in agreement then.



I agree that UNCONDITIONAL promises (Adam, Noah, Abraham, David) made by God are never cancelled or superseded.

But the old covenant is NOT and unconditional promise. The old covenant is a CONDITIONAL AGREEMENT. IF they obey = blessings. IF they disobey = curses (Deuteronomy 28).

After the curses were poured out, IF they turn back to the Lord (Deuteronomy 30:2), He would restore them from captivity and bring them back to the land (Deuteronomy 30:3) and circumcise their hearts (Deuteronomy 30:6).



It should be very apparent, that the restoration in romans 11 is restoration into relationship with God. Romans 9-11 no where mentions "restoration to the land".



Correct, if the nation of Israel disobeyed the old covenant agreement, the curses of the law would be poured out (Deuteronomy 28:15-68).



Land restoration is not found in Romans 11:23, nor any verse in romans 9-11. As we can see, not one word about land is mentioned in that verse:

Romans 11:23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again

The old covenant agreement promised that after the curses have been poured, IF they turned back to God (Deuteronomy 30:2), then he would:

1.) Restore them from captivity
Deuteronomy 30:3a Then He will restore you from captivity and have compassion on you
2.) gather them from all the nations they were scattered
Deuteronomy 30:3b and gather you from all the nations to which the LORD your God has scattered you

Jeremiah confirms this was fulfilled upon the return from Babylonian exile
Jeremiah 29:10-14 For this is what the LORD says: “When Babylon’s seventy years are complete, I will attend to you and confirm My promise to restore you to this place. For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the LORD, and I will restore you from captivity and gather you from all the nations and places to which I have banished you, declares the LORD. I will restore you to the place from which I sent you into exile.”





What is the barn? is it the present land of Israel, the new heavens and new earth just heaven?

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”



Paul quotes Isaiah in that only A REMNANT of Israel would be saved

Romans 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the Israelites is like the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

Paul also states ALL of Israel will be saved.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

So how do we reconcile these difference? How can only a remnant and yet all of Israel be saved?

Because not all of Israel is Israel

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

Thus by God saving the remnant of Israel along with the grafted in gentiles, he saves ALL of Israel.



only under the old covenant agreement. However, the old covenant agreement has been made obsolete. It was superseded by the new covenant.



Reconciled to God, not restored to the land.



So Christ's death did not gather the scattered children of God into one?

John 11:51-52 Caiaphas did not say this on his own. Instead, as high priest that year, he was prophesying that Jesus would die for the nation, and not only for the nation, but also for the scattered children of God, to gather them together into one.

Jeremiah prophesied that Israel and Judah would be sown among the nations to build them not to destroy them.
Jeremiah 31:27 The days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and of beast. just as I watched over them to uproot and tear them down, to demolish, destroy, and bring disaster, so will I be attentive to build them and to plant them,” declares the LORD.

Jesus confirms this through his parable.
Matthew 13:24-30 Jesus put before them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was asleep, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and slipped away. When the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the weeds also appeared.
The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ ‘No,’ he said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn.’”

Do you believe the barn is the present physical land of Israel?



The conditional requirements of the old covenant do not annul the unconditional promises made to Abraham and his offspring because the offspring is CHRIST. Notice Paul specifically states that the promises (PLURAL) were to Christ. Thus it is Christ who inherits the land of Israel.

Galatians 3:15-18 To give a human example, brothers:f even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

The nation of Israel was promised the land conditionally based on their obedience the law. Christ (the offspring) was promised the land unconditionally.

Whose inheritance were the wicked tenants trying to take?
Matthew 21:38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.

“In response to my position that the old covenant was made null and void, you stated in post #339:

"Just because the Old Covenant was made null and void by the New Covenant, that does not mean that all that was under the Old Covenant was made obsolete as well as there were elements associated with the Old Covenant that were still carried over into the New covenant—the Ten Commandments and other moral laws for example."

"This appears to be a strong inference here that you conclude I believe that all righteous requirements of the law were done away with.”



I really do not see how what I said was even remotely an inference of an accusation against you that I never really made.

You will interpret my statement as being an accusation in which there is no contextual evidence of me accusing anyone of anything and yet you refuse to accept that Romans chapter 11 and Romans 9:4-5, and 8 imply restoration of land to the Jews alongside reconciliation with God through Christ when land restoration has always been a part of the restoration of Israel alongside their reconciliation to God when no NT scriptures ever excluded land restoration as it pertains to the Jews.

Where is the consistency in that way of thinking?


“The moral standards of God are for all, regardless if one is in a covenantal relationship with God or not.

Was it wrong for Cain to murder Abel prior to the old covenant? Yes

Would it have been wrong for Joseph to sleep with Potiphar's wife prior to the old covenant? Yes, Joseph calls it a wicked sin (genesis 39:4).”


Laws against incest, fornication, LGBT behavior, inappropriate behavior with animals, taking God’s name in vain, and which command us to honor our father and mother, work six days and rest on a seventh day were established Old Covenant laws and they did not die out with the Old Covenant. The New Testament still commands the followers of Jesus to abide them even now.


“Again, the old covenant was AN AGREEMENT between the nation of Israel and God. If Israel obeyed all of God's laws (moral, civil, and ceremonial), they were blessed with Earthly blessings (Deuteronomy 28:1-14). However, if did not obey all of God's laws, then they would be cursed (Deuteronomy 28:15-68).”


But the curses would be lifted upon their repentance.


“This agreement was removed because it had a fault on the side of the nation of Israel. While God kept His end of the agreement, the nation of Israel could not because of their sinful nature.”


The Old Covenant was never meant by God to be permanent in the first place.


“IF they turn back to the Lord (Deuteronomy 30:2), He would restore them from captivity and bring them back to the land (Deuteronomy 30:3) and circumcise their hearts (Deuteronomy 30:6).”


That is because God promised to preserver the people of Israel even when they were under His judgment. (Lev. 26:44-45) This had to be done in order to keep alive for Himself a faithful remnant.


“It should be very apparent, that the restoration in romans 11 is restoration into relationship with God. Romans 9-11 no where mentions "restoration to the land.

Land restoration is not found in Romans 11:23, nor any verse in romans 9-11. As we can see, not one word about land is mentioned in that verse.”


It does not exclude land restoration either because land restoration has always been the result of the Jews being reconciled to God.


“The old covenant agreement promised that after the curses have been poured, IF they turned back to God (Deuteronomy 30:2), then he would gather them from all the nations they were scattered. Jeremiah confirms this was fulfilled upon the return from Babylonian exile.”



That was not a one-time fulfillment. Scripture indicates that this could very well be an ongoing cycle concerning Israel.


“…only under the old covenant agreement. However, the old covenant agreement has been made obsolete. It was superseded by the new covenant.”


Just because it appears in the Old Covenant or declared under the Old Covenant, that does not make it an Old/New Covenant matter which is why I would like to start a post discussing what died with the Old Covenant and what did not.



“What is the barn? is it the present land of Israel, the new heavens and new earth just heaven?”



That passage is not related to land restoration. It pertains to the entire world in the day of judgment.



“Paul quotes Isaiah in that only A REMNANT of Israel would be saved.”

So how do we reconcile these difference? How can only a remnant and yet all of Israel be saved? Because not all of Israel is Israel. Thus by God saving the remnant of Israel along with the grafted in gentiles, he saves ALL of Israel.”



As it pertains to salvation in Christ that is true, but both Isaiah and Paul are referring to Israel as an entire people and nation, a remnant of which will come to embrace Jesus as their Messiah and be saved? Why a remnant? Because for reasons that I am not prepared to go into on this particular thread, a remnant will be all that remains of the nation of Israel when Christ returns.



“So Christ's death did not gather the scattered children of God into one?”



The death of Christ gathers all willing to place their trust in Him for their salvation to Himself, and that applies to both Jew and Gentile alike, but the regathering of Israel is also literal and is meant to be understood as such. In order for the Jews to be regathered from all the nations of the world to which they have been dispersed, there has to be a place for them to be regathered to and that is their homeland. This is why, as it pertains to the people of Israel, land restoration can never be severed from a complete and total restoration.


That is not an Old/New Covenant matter. That is a matter pertaining to the character and integrity of our God.



“Jeremiah prophesied that Israel and Judah would be sown among the nations to build them not to destroy them.
Jeremiah 31:27 The days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and of beast. just as I watched over them to uproot and tear them down, to demolish, destroy, and bring disaster, so will I be attentive to build them and to plant them,” declares the LORD.

Jesus confirms this through his parable.
Matthew 13:24-30 Jesus put before them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was asleep, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and slipped away. When the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the weeds also appeared. The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ ‘No,’ he said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn.’”


First of all, that passage in Jeremiah does not mention the house of Israel and Judah being sown among the other nations and secondly, the cited parable told by Jesus has nothing to do with the cited passage cited from Jeremiah, but deals with an entirely different subject.

 

[Contenders Edge]

I believe the old covenant was taken away at the 1st advent. Scripture is very clear on this.

Hebrews 10:9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second.

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

however, as you make the claim that the conditional promises of the old covenant are still somehow in effect, despite the old covenant no longer being in effect, the burden of proof is on you to provide specific NT scripture that states so.



I don't believe the Hasmonean dynasty fulfills Ezekiel 37 either.

However, you stated Israel was restored to the land under the Persian empire but never became an independent nation until 1948. This was an untrue statement, as Israel was an independent nation from around 110 BCE to 63BCE.

You don't believe God yet dwells his people?
Ezekiel 37:27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be My people.

Paul disagrees.
2 Corinthians 6:16 What agreement can exist between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be My people.”



Correct, Paul was applying a passage written specifically to the northern kingdom onto the gentiles. Thus by the gentiles being grafted into Israel, the Northern kingdom is united to the southern kingdom under "one head" who is Christ.



Both Jew and gentile being one in Christ is the fulfillment of Hosea 1:10 and 2:23 as quoted by Paul in Romans 9:24-26.

“…you make the claim that the conditional promises of the old covenant are still somehow in effect, despite the old covenant no longer being in effect, the burden of proof is on you to provide specific NT scripture that states so."


The burden of proof is just as much on you to provide NT scriptures that those things pertaining to Israel have been cancelled out. I’ve already provided scriptures that at the very least imply that the foretelling of land restoration to the Jewish people was still in effect, but you have rejected them as even evidence pointing to such.

You have put forth nothing that explicitly states or even implies that land restoration no longer applies to the nation of Israel. Those things that passed away with the Old Covenant are those things that run contrary to the New Covenant. Land restoration for the Jews does not run contrary to the New Covenant.



"I don't believe the Hasmonean dynasty fulfills Ezekiel 37 either.

However, you stated Israel was restored to the land under the Persian empire but never became an independent nation until 1948. This was an untrue statement, as Israel was an independent nation from around 110 BCE to 63BCE."


But nonetheless, if you agree that the Hasmonean dynasty was not the fulfillment of Ezekiel 37, then perhaps you will consider that the reestablishment of Israel as a nation once more in 1948 may be setting the stage for that eventual fulfillment.


“You don't believe God yet dwells his people?
Ezekiel 37:27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be My people.

Paul disagrees.
2 Corinthians 6:16 What agreement can exist between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be My people.”


I believe that God dwells in us through the Holy Spirit, but Ezekiel and Paul are not talking about the same form of God’s presence. Paul is speaking of God’s presence through the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. Ezekiel foretells of God coming to dwell among His people directly.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Yes it does. God restored Israel back to the land after the Babylonian exile. Then near the end of the nation of Israel being under the old covenant, God sent Christ to redeem them from the sins and sent the Spirit to given them a new heart under the new covenant.



Paul states only a remnant of Israel would be saved.

Romans 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the Israelites is like the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

Paul also states all of Israel will be saved.
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved.

How is this possible? Because not all who descend from Israel are true Israel.

romans 9:6 it is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

Thus by God having vessels of mercy (true Israel) of the remnant of Jews with grafted in gentiles he saves all of Israel. While the vessels of dishonor (not true Israel) become like Sodom and Gomorrah.



promissory clauses are dependent on the contract. If the contract is null and void, so are its promissory clauses.

Land restoration from exile was foretold by the prophets prior to and while Israel was in exile, while Israel was still under the old covenant.



So just to clarify, you believe "my servant david" as the "one shepherd" is about Christ?

Ezekiel 34:23 And I will set up over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he shall feed them: he shall feed them and be their shepherd



What scripture teaches to interpret that the "prophetic timeclock" was altered?

This doesn't address why 2,300 years would be a distant time, but 2,000 would be near.



Jesus was cut off AFTER the 69th week, not at the end of the 69th week.
Daniel 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing



Where does scripture say the rejection by the Jews delays fulfillment of prophecy?



By the time Paul wrote colossians, he believe the gospel had been preached to all creation under heaven.

Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.



What does this have to do with "delaying" prophecy? The church is not a building. It's a collection of all those in Christ. Claiming to be a Christian but not following Christ does not mean one is part of the church.



God gave the old covenant nation of Israel 40 years to repent before there destruction. remember a day is as 1,000 years AND 1,000 years is like a day. 2 Peter 3:9 is a reference to God not living in time.



This doesn't answer the question. Were the Parthians a part of the roman empire. Were the Germanic tribes a part of the roman empire.



No he didn't. He was focused on the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple at the end of the age.



What evidence do you have the earthquakes, famines, pestilence, and wars have escalated more so now, then 1,000 or 2,000 or 3,000 years ago?

“Yes it does. God restored Israel back to the land after the Babylonian exile. Then near the end of the nation of Israel being under the old covenant…”


You have yet to provide scriptural evidence from Deuteronomy 30:1-6 that such was one-time fulfillment and not an ongoing fulfillment until their ultimate reconciliation with God through Christ when He returns to reign.


“…promissory clauses are dependent on the contract. If the contract is null and void, so are its promissory clauses. Land restoration from exile was foretold by the prophets prior to and while Israel was in exile, while Israel was still under the old covenant.”


That may be the case in the world of men, but this is not necessarily the case with God. God’s promissory clauses could only be made null and void if the new contract which He has instated has not expressly cancelled them out. If they are not expressly cancelled out, they are still in effect and in this case, land restoration for the Jews. Furthermore, He has continued to leave the door open for the Jews to experience all the blessings He has promised them, which they will experience, along with the promises we have in Christ, if they no longer remain in unbelief but embrace Christ, which they eventually are destined to do.


“So just to clarify, you believe "my servant david" as the "one shepherd" is about Christ?”


I believe that Jesus is Shepherd over all who come to Him, and as far as the fulfillment of the cited passage goes, (Ezek. 34:23) I believe it is possible that it is in reference to Christ. But because this is speaking of a time that has not yet come to pass, we cannot yet know how its fulfillment will play out. We do know Christ will be ruling over all the earth when it is fulfilled.


“What scripture teaches to interpret that the "prophetic timeclock" was altered?
This doesn't address why 2,300 years would be a distant time, but 2,000 would be near.
Jesus was cut off AFTER the 69th week, not at the end of the 69th week.
Where does scripture say the rejection by the Jews delays fulfillment of prophecy?”


Why else would Jesus say that we cannot know the day nor the hour of His return?
Why else is it written that the coming of the Lord will be life a thief in the night?
Why else would Peter say, as it pertains to the Lord’s return that the Lord is not slow in keeping His promises as we understand slowness? (2 Pet. 3:9)?

As for the part of the Jews, they have always had a central role in prophetic fulfillment and will continue to have their part until all things are fulfilled and that is why it is not unreasonable to consider the possibility that their rejection of Christ has delayed the fulfillment of a number of things to come.

King Josiah’s repentance delayed judgment upon Judah did it not? Ninevah’s repentance when Jonah pronounced a coming judgment upon them delayed their destruction didn’t it? Even king Ahab’s repentance over his murder of Naboth delayed the destruction of his household.

The lack of faith on the part of the Israelites delayed God's promise in fulfilling His declaration of the land promised them to be given into their possession. They had to wander around in the wilderness for 40 years. Had it not been for their lack of faith, they would have possessed the land promised to them sooner.

Therefore, it is possible for decisions to be made and events to take place that can either hasten or delay fulfillment of prophecy. What matters is that what God has said will come to pass will come to pass exactly as He has said it will.


“By the time Paul wrote colossians, he believe the gospel had been preached to all creation under heaven.

Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.”


Creation itself also bears witness to the glory of God all over the world, but it takes the Gospel to open men’s eyes to that. Creation had been proclaiming the hope of the Gospel before men were sent out into the world to preach it, but not every nation or people had been exposed to the Gospel in Paul’s day.

Did the Gospel spread throughout of all of Africa in Paul’s day? Did his generation see it preached throughout all of Central Asia and the far east? Did any of the Apostles or Christ’s disciples of that first generation travel to Australia or the Americas to preach the Gospel? Did all of Europe hear the preaching of the Gospel from that first generation? No, I don’t think so. When Christ meant the Gospel had to be preached throughout the entire world, He didn’t mean just the Roman empire, He meant the entire world.


“The church is not a building. It's a collection of all those in Christ.”


I never called the Church a building.


“What does this have to do with "delaying" prophecy?”


Had the Church continued to take the Gospel to all four corners of the earth and maintained its own members, all thing might have been fulfilled sooner and perhaps Christ might already be reigning on the earth today.


“remember a day is as 1,000 years AND 1,000 years is like a day. 2 Peter 3:9 is a reference to God not living in time.”


Peter was saying that what may seem like a long time to us is not a long time to God as it relates to Christ’s return.


“Were the Parthians a part of the roman empire. Were the Germanic tribes a part of the roman empire.”


The Roman empire was said to extend as far north as Germany so the Germanic tribes probably were under the jurisdiction of Rome, as far as the Romans were concerned though not willingly. Due to Roman forces being stretched thin, they were not able to hold this area for long. The Parthians were an empire that was a rival to Rome, but even the wars involving the Roman empire are but a small fraction of all the wars and rivalry between nations and kingdoms that have taken place throughout history and what wars took place in the first century still do not compare to the number of wars that have taken place in more recent centuries.


“No he didn't. He was focused on the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple at the end of the age.”


Not all the things that He said would happen happened prior to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. There are still things He said would take place that have not yet taken place.


“What evidence do you have the earthquakes, famines, pestilence, and wars have escalated more so now, then 1,000 or 2,000 or 3,000 years ago?”


What evidence do you have that they haven’t? I tried to keep a record of the number of earthquakes that happen each year, but the number of earthquakes that took place became more than I could keep up with, but that was alongside everything else I tried to keep track of.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Based on 2 Peter 3:10-13, and the passages below, this earth does not abide for all eternity.
It will be replaced by the New Earth.


Psa 102:24 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.
Psa 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
Psa 102:26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:


Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.


We find the heavenly city in Galatians 4:25-26, and Hebrews 11:15-16, and Hebrews 12:22-24.

.

“…though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee…” Jeremiah 30:11.

That passage ought to be enough to prove that the nation of Israel will be carried into the new earth while all other nations may pass away because the nation of Israel is the only nation that God has declared would ultimately endure forever.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Nowhere to be found within the New Covenant, the only Covenant in full force and effect since Calvary, written in the Blood of Messiah, the Divine Testator.

In God's New Will and Testament, all covenants and promises are fulfilled only in Christ and those who are in Christ.

The OT covenants and promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.

If you have made your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following or its equivalent:

"I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses in their entirety, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless yet another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.

Thus we see:

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

God`s New Will and Testament is everlasting:

Hebrews 13
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.

There is none greater.

We see other new promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament in:

Matthew 21:33-45
In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

And His New Will and Testament contains even better promises:

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Such as:

Hebrews 11
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Additional promissory clauses in...:

Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

...make us who are in Christ joint heirs with Him.

But notice:
There are no promissory clauses for anyone, Jew or Gentile, who is not in Christ.

Not everything associated with the Old Covenant passed away with the Old Covenant. And as it pertains to the nation of Israel, God has dealt with them in a way that He has not dealt with any other nation and has made promises to them that have not been made to any other nation. All that He has said and declared concerning them regardless of what covenant they may be associated with, must be fulfilled exactly the way He has declared and every promise made concerning them must be carried out exactly as He has said.

If all that God has said and promised concerning the Jews does not come to pass as He has said or according to what He has said, then the promises made to them have failed and He has made Himself out to be a liar. That all the promises made to Israel must come to pass as He has said and can never be made null and void is not an Old Covenant/New Covenant issue, but pertains to the character and integrity of our God.

If the Lord keeps His promises made to one group of people, then we can be sure that He will deliver on His promises to all who are in Christ (Jew and Gentile alike), but if one set of promises made to one group of people are no good, then no promises God makes to anyone are any good.

 

[BABerean2]

“…though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee…” Jeremiah 30:11.

That passage ought to be enough to prove that the nation of Israel will be carried into the new earth while all other nations may pass away because the nation of Israel is the only nation that God has declared would ultimately endure forever.

That nation is described as "the twelve tribes", who were "brethren" in the "faith" in James 1:1-3.
Who was James talking to if it was not Israel?

That nation was also described on the Day of Pentecost when Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel", and about 3,000 people accepted the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:22-24.

.

 

[Contenders Edge]

We find the summary of Daniel 9:24 fulfilled in the Book of Hebrews and the Book of Acts.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

If I agree to paint you house "after" 69 weeks, it will not be painted until the 70th week or after.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The covenant with the many in Daniel 9:27 is the covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28.
It was promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and was fulfilled in blood at Calvary.
It is quoted as fulfilled by the author of the Book of Hebrews in Hebrews 8:6-13.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews for a period of about 7 years, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles. This was the 70th week of Daniel during the first century.


Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

.

The Covenant made in Christ is an everlasting covenant.

The covenant made with the many that the prophet Daniel speaks of has an expiration date
and appears in need of renewal periodically.

The Covenant made in Christ does not need to be renewed because it will not expire.

The Covenant made in Christ is honored by the One who made it.

The covenant made with the many is violated by the one who will confirm it.

The covenant that is made with the many allows the Jews who have not yet received Jesus as their Messiah to continue conducting their sacrifices in the temple, but the one who confirms this covenant causes the sacrifices in the temple to cease, thereby by cancelling out this covenant before it is set to expire.

The sacrifices in the Jewish temple were put to an end by the legions of Rome almost forty years after Christ ascended to Heaven. That is a much longer span of time than the seven year covenant that is confirmed and then broken half way through its tenure.

But Daniel 9:27 clearly speaks of a time that has not yet happened because according to the prophet Daniel, this covenant confirmed with the many, including Israel, is confirmed at a time when sacrifices are once again being made in a temple that does not yet exist.

The seven year covenant is confirmed by a false messiah. The everlasting Covenant is made by the true Messiah by His death on the cross and His resurrection.

The false messiah gives recognition to a covenant that already appears to be in existence and is temporary. The true Messiah replaces an inferior Covenant with a Superior Covenant that lasts for eternity.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Messiah disagrees.


Luke 18
31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

Luke 24
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.

John 19
28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.


It's all about Him.

The cited passages have nothing to do with the prophetic seventy-weeks written in the book of Daniel but pertain only to the death and resurrection of Christ.

 

[Contenders Edge]

That nation is described as "the twelve tribes", who were "brethren" in the "faith" in James 1:1-3.
Who was James talking to if it was not Israel?

That nation was also described on the Day of Pentecost when Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel", and about 3,000 people accepted the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:22-24.

.

Both James and Peter were addressing Jewish audiences. The twelve tribes have been associated with none other than Israel. The followers of Jesus whom James was addressing were of the twelve tribes scattered abroad. They were Jews. The house of Israel, whom Peter was addressing, was a Jewish audience out of whom 3,000 received Jesus as their Messiah.

Peter was addressing a nation. James was writing to people scattered abroad who were a part of that nation.