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Featured Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by claninja, Jun 19, 2019.

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  1. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    “none of this mentions physical land restoration for the nation of Israel. In fact, Paul doesn't state their acceptance of Christ is restoration to the physical land, he states it is life from the dead.”



    The acceptance of Christ is the completion of the foretold restoration of the Jews as prophesied by Ezekiel, but it is very clear that physical restoration to the land precedes spiritual restoration for the nation at large and we see that restoration already taking place, but with the nation of Israel at large, physical land restoration has preceded spiritual restoration, but as for the Jews who come to Christ at this present time, for them, they have experienced that spiritual restoration ahead of they who have yet to receive Christ, but for the nation at large, that day will come when Christ returns to deliver them from their enemies and reign upon the earth. (Zech. 12-14)



    “Who is the one shepherd, David or Christ?”



    You asked this question already. Christ will be King over all the earth, but whether David is a figurative title or a steward under Christ who places Him in charge over the affairs of Israel, is yet to be known for sure.

    We do know that all the saints will be ruling and reigning with Christ and to them will be given various degrees of land and various numbers of cities and communities over which they will have charge.



    “John was given a time frame: soon and at hand.
    Daniel was given a time frame: many days from now.
    Peter knew the end of all things was at hand, because Jesus told him so.”




    Just as God does not count slowness we might count slowness, (2 Pet. 3:9) so He does not count “at hand” and “soon” as we count it in relation to the fulfillment of all that is to come. Peter has made that very clear.


    The 69th week of Daniel is a week like no other in his 70 weeks because unlike the rest of the 70, the 69th week is an indefinite period of time which could end at any time, but the Apostles, while expecting the return of the Lord at any time, knew not to place His return at any specific time, because they also knew that He could just as easily return at a time past their lifetime as He could during their lifetime.

    It is the same with every generation.




    “There were multiple Roman wars in the 1st century. Additionally Rome was comprised of multiple nations.

    Roman-Parthian war
    Roman civil war
    Romans germanic wars
    Jewish Roman war



    Why would we rule out the prophet Agabus' prediction of famine spreading across the roman world (sometime during 41-54)?


    You want a specific count on earthquakes that took place 2,000 years ago? There were many earthquakes throughout the roman world in the 1st century. One such earth destroyed, Colossea, Hierapolis, and Laodicea around 60ad.


    or how about from Seneca in 58ad.”




    When Jesus said talked of wars and rumors of wars and of nation rising against nation and kingdom against nation, He meant more than just the Roman wars. He meant various nations and kingdoms rising up against each other. Rome was only one kingdom.

    The prophet Agabus foretold of only one famine that later took place throughout the Roman empire, but Jesus foretold of many famines in various places throughout the earth and more earthquakes have place throughout the recent centuries around the world than took place in the Roman empire in the first century.

    When Jesus foretold of earthquakes in various places, He meant places even beyond the Roman world but He also said that when these things did take place, that did not mean the end had yet come. (Mt. 24:6)
     
  2. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    1Pe 2:4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious,
    1Pe 2:5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
    1Pe 2:6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHIEF CORNERSTONE, ELECT, PRECIOUS, AND HE WHO BELIEVES ON HIM WILL BY NO MEANS BE PUT TO SHAME."
    1Pe 2:7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED HAS BECOME THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE,"
    1Pe 2:8 and "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
    1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
    1Pe 2:10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

    .
     
  3. Mathetes66

    Mathetes66 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Simple. The promises are ones God made unilaterally. He is the One who fulfills them in His timing, His way & according to His purposes.

    Romans 9:16-18 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU & THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.”

    "We arrive at a point in history which will prove to be of such tremendous importance as to shape the course of the world both in this age & the age to come. But, like many of God's mustard-seed size actions, it is obscure &seemingly insignificant.

    It is the kind of action scarcely anyone would have thought of who wanted to redeem the world, reclaim creation from the curse of sin & fill the earth with God's glory.

    God zeroes in on one man, Abram, a worshiper of false gods (Joshua 24:2, 3) in the land of Ur & says, with unbelievably far-reaching implications, "Go from your country & your kindred & your father's house to the land that I will show you.

    And I will make of you a great nation & I will bless you & make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you & him who curses you I will curse & IN YOU-- shall all the families of the earth be blessed" (Gen 12:1–3).

    In completely sovereign grace God comes to this undeserving idolater & says, with life-creating authority, "I am going to bless you & through you bring blessing to the whole world." And with that begins the history of the people of Israel." John Piper

    Romans 10:25-36 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of THIS MYSTERY—so that you will NOT be wise in your own estimation—that a PARTIAL hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

    26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB. THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
    WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.”

    28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are BELOVED FOR THE SAKE OF THE FATHERS; for the gifts & the calling of God are IRREVOCABLE.

    30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you THEY ALSO MAY NOW BE SHOWN MERCY. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

    33Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom & knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments & unfathomable His ways! 34For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?

    35Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? 36For from Him & through Him & to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
     
  4. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Was all of Israel partially hardened, or was part of Israel hardened and part was not?
    The answer is found in Romans 11:1-5.

    And what manner is indicated by the Greek word "houto", will Israel be saved in Romans 11:26?

    The answer is found below in the preceding verses.

    Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

    How many groups of "they" are found in verse 28? There is a group of "they" who have rejected Christ and are the "enemies" of the Gospel, and there is another group of "they" who are the "election", because they have accepted Christ. Just as we have two different groups of Israelites in Romans 11:1-5, we find the same in this verse.

    Rom 11:28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

    Based on Luke 21:24-28, the times of the Gentiles comes to fullness at the future Second Coming of Christ.

    Paul provides no Plan B of salvation outside of the Church in Romans 11.

    .
     
  5. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    I never stated the righteous requirements of the law, like the 10 commandments and moral codes, were done away with. The old covenant was AN AGREEMENT between God and the nation of Israel, in which the nation of Israel was to keep ALL of the commandments of the law of Moses in order to receive the blessings of the Law (Deuteronomy 28:1-14). If the nation of Israel did not keep their end of the agreement, to obey ALL the laws, then the curses would be poured on them (Deuteronomy 28:15-68).


    Christ fulfilled ALL of the laws of Moses, while he was under the old covenant. The only human to ever do so.

    matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

    Through, his death, resurrection, and ascension, he took away the old covenant agreement and established the new covenant agreement.

    matthew 26:2 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins

    Hebrews 10:9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second.

    Now, Israel no longer needs to follow ALL the Laws of Moses to remain in relationship with God. For under the new covenant, ALL of the righteous requirements of the law have been met in us, who are in Christ.

    Romans 8:3-4 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,c he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit

    Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

    And since we are free from the burden of following the law of works to maintain our relationship with God, we are free to fulfill the law by loving our neighbor as ourselves by serving one another in Christ. For because of Christ, even our short comings in loving God and our neighbor will never separate us from Him.

    Galatians 5:14 For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

    Since the old covenant agreement was taken away and superseded by the new covenant, the promises of the old covenant have been superseded by better promises:

    Hebrews 8:6 But as it is, Christb has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises

    I am not arguing as to which laws were removed or remained from the old covenant to the new covenant because ALL of the righteous requirements of the law were fulfilled in Christ. Therefore, we are now free to simply love God and love our neighbors as ourselves.
    The argument is if the agreement, between God and the nation of Israel, of following ALL of the laws of moses to receive the earthly blessings and avoiding the earthly curses are still in place. As the old covenant was superseded by the covenant, I would argue the promises of the old covenant were superseded by the better promises of the new covenant.


    The saving of Israel is mentioned in romans 11, but promises of land restoration from the old covenant are found NO WHERE in romans 11.

    The law was a shadow, not the reality.

    Hebrews 10:1 For the law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves.

    Thus, the promise of land restoration (the shadow) was fulfilled in the return Israel back to the land after the Babylonian exile, as confirmed by Jeremiah:

    Jeremiah 29:10-14 For this is what the LORD says: “When Babylon’s seventy years are complete, I will attend to you and confirm My promise to restore you to this place. For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the LORD, and I will restore you from captivity and gather you from all the nations and places to which I have banished you, declares the LORD. I will restore you to the place from which I sent you into exile.”

    So what reality was this shadow pointing to? I would argue, the restoration back to the Father through Christ.

    John 8:31-36 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?” Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

    2 Corinthians 5:18-19 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconcilingc the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation

    We agree. You just posted the definition of the old covenant. If they followed the law, the received blessings. If they disobeyed, they were cursed.

    Romans 11 does not include land restoration, if it did, you would be able to quote it in order to support your position. You appear to be adding that assumption in order to support your eschatological bias. Paul nowhere teaches a return to the land of Israel.

    That is not how agreements work. When a first agreement is superseded by a 2nd agreement, the promissory clauses of the first agreement are voided out.

    An Earthly example:

    My first will promises to give my wife everything I own in the event of my death. However, I divorce my first wife. I then remarry. I create a new will, that cancels my first and promises my new wife everything I own in the event of my death. In reality, in the event of my death, my 2nd wife would receive all I own. However, according to your illogical argument, my first wife would still inherit from my belongings. Your argument makes no sense.

    It would also make for a false teaching to state that Jews, under the new covenant, have different promises than non jews. For in Christ, there is no Jew or gentile, but all are one and all are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise.

    Galatians 3:28-29 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slaveg nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

    Yes, you are cherry picking which promises of the old covenant are still in effect due to your eschatological bias. Paul never once specifically mentions the restoration to the physical land of Israel. In order to substantiate your claim, you should be able to post scripture from Paul that specifically mentions the return to the land of Israel.

    Romans 5:11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

    Paul does, however, mention restoration to God through Christ, many times over.

    This argument makes no sense. How can I accuse Paul of cherry picking verses he never actually mentions. You have yet to show where Paul specifically mentions the promises of land restoration in the NT.

    Paul states God has not rejected his people because at the "PRESENT TIME there is a remnant". Thus Paul himself was proof that God had not rejected his people.

    Romans 11:1-5 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham,a a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

    The promises of restoration point to Christ, not the land. The shadow is a shadow, not the reality.

    Hebrews 10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities,

    Where does Paul specifically mention the land restoration promise is still in effect under the old covenant? I don't want your interpretation of Paul's epistles, I want clear evidence where Paul specifically mentions the restoration to the land of Israel. If you can't provide this, then we know your position has no foundation to stand on.
     
  6. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    As we can see, the old covenant was made obsolete by the new covenant. Yet it had not yet completely disappeared, as we can see it was fading away and ready to vanish in the 1st century.

    2 Corinthians 3:7-11 Now if the ministry of death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at the face of Moses because of its fleeting glory, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? For if the ministry of condemnation glroy, how much more glorious is the ministry of righteousness! Indeed, what was once glorious has no glory now in comparison to the glory that surpasses it. For if what is fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which endures!

    Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

    Not true, the nation of Israel reigned sovereignly as an independent nation for about 80 years under the hasmonean dynasty from 110 to 63 BCE.


    Hosea 1:10-11 mirrors Ezekiel 37:22 in that God gathers the northern and southern kingdom into one nation under one ruler. It is when the northern kingdom is again called his people that they are gathered to God under one head.

    Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. And one king shall be king over them all, and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer divided into two kingdoms

    hosea 1:10-11 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or numbered. And in the place where it was said to them, “You are not my people,” it shall be said to them, “Childrene of the living God.” And the children of Judah and the children of Israel shall be gathered together, and they shall appoint for themselves one head. And they shall go up from the land, for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

    Paul quotes hosea 1:10 as being fulfilled in the 1st century. Thus the gathering of Gentile and Jew into the vessels of mercy fulfills God's promise of reuniting the northern and southern kingdom.

    Romans 9:24-26 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”“And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

    Thus the fulfillment is not through Israel being recognized as an independent nation, but by Both Jew and Gentile being gathered to God under Christ. The shadow pointing to the reality.

    And Paul and the author of hebrews make it very clear the law is a shadow of Christ, not the reality.

    So if you interpret being born again as a spiritual reality and not literally coming out of your mother's womb a 2nd time, why are you interpreting the law, the shadow, as the reality and not the true reality in Christ?
     
  7. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    I actually agree with you that spiritual restoration occurs after the return to the land.

    Scripture is very clear that when Israel repented and turned to God following the curses of the law being poured out, He would restore them to the land and circumcise their hearts, so that they would live.


    Deuteronomoy 30:1-6And when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the Lord your God has driven you, and return to the Lord your God, you and your children, and obey his voice in all that I command you today, with all your heart and with all your soul, then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have mercy on you, and he will gather you again from all the peoples where the Lord your God has scattered you. If your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of heaven, from there the Lord your God will gather you, and from there he will take you. And the Lord your God will bring you into the land that your fathers possessed, that you may possess it. And he will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers. And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

    Well, Israel was restored from captivity upon the Babylonian exile and did return to the land, all under the old covenant agreement. This is confirmed by a prophecy from Jeremiah:

    Jeremaih 29:10-14 For thus says the Lord: When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place. For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you. You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the Lord, and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations and all the places where I have driven you, declares the Lord, and I will bring you back to the place from which I sent you into exile.

    Christ was born in Israel, after the Babylonian exile. Christ fulfilled the righteous requirements of the law for us through the cross, then the spirit was poured out. This resulted in Israel's circumcised hearts and being made alive. All of this happened in the land of Israel After Israel had been restored to the land.

    Romans 2:28-29 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

    Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

    Thus again, the fulfillment of the law finds its purpose in Christ, and not in the restoration of the nation of Israel back to the literal physical land.


    And you didn't answer it, so should I assume you don't believe Jesus is the shepherd?

    If God does not count at hand or soon as literally at hand or soon, Then why did he tell Daniel the vision of the 2,300 mornings and evenings was for a distant time?

    The 69th week is indefinite? By that logic, were still waiting for the cross, for Christ would be crucified AFTER the 69th week.

    Daniel 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing

    Were the Parthians a part of the roman empire? Were the Germanic tribes a part of the roman empire. How does the roman civil wars not qualify as wars and rumors of wars?

    The context is the destruction of the temple. Matthew 24:1-15 tells the disciples of the signs leading up to the destruction of the temple. This could be none other than the disciples generation. For the temple was destroyed in 70ad and wars, earthquakes, famines, persecution, false prophets, etc....all occurred during the disciple's generation leading up to the destruction of the temple.

    Matthew 24:1-15 Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then many will fall awaya and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand


    So you don't believe earthquakes and famines, besides the one's mentioned in scripture, occurred in the 1st century?

    So you don't believe any earthquakes outside of rome happened in the 1st century?
     
  8. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    The Jewish State of Israel, in a small portion of the holy Land, is not a complete fulfilment of the many prophesies that tell of a full restoration of all the Land given to Abraham and His descendants; actual and Spiritual. Galatians 3:26-29
    This is what we Christians look forward in the near future:

    Isaiah 62:1-2a For Zion’s sake, I shall not keep silent – until her victory shines forth, like the sunrise, her victory like a blazing torch. The nations will see your victory and their rulers your glory.

    Isaiah prophesies for the sake of Zion; the holy Land. There will be a great victory, ‘like a blazing torch’ - a CME sunstrike over the attacking enemies. Isaiah 30:25-30 & 66:15-16, Psalms 11:4-6 The world will see it and be amazed. Jeremiah 33:6-16

    Isaiah 62:2b-5 You will receive a new name, the Lord Himself will give it. You will be like a glorious crown in His hand. No more are you forsaken and your Land desolate. You will be called ‘Hephzibah’ and the Land, ‘Beulah’. For the Lord will delight in you and it will be like a marriage: He will rejoice over you as a bridegroom over his bride. ‘Hephzibah’ = My delight is in her. ‘Beulah’ = married. Isaiah 49:18

    The Lord’s people, Christian Israelites will be gathered and settled into their heritage, all of the holy Land, in the new nation of Beulah. Wonderful promises to them of fertility and wealth. They will live in justice, peace and security, as He intended people to be.
    The actual and genuine fulfilment of Isaiah 66:7-14.


    Isaiah 62:6-7 Jerusalem, on your walls, I have posted watchmen, they will call out: You that invoke the Name of the Lord, do not rest and give no rest to the Lord until He makes Jerusalem a praise throughout the world.

    The Hebrew word for ‘watchmen’, is ‘natzar’, the root word for Nazarene; literally all Christian believers. WE must not rest or let the Lord forget His people and His Land. Keep praying for our redemption and restoration. Ezekiel 36:24-28, Isaiah 52:7-9

    Isaiah 62:8-9 The Lord has sworn to never again allow foreigners to take the produce of the Land, but you who give praises to Him will eat the grain and drink the wine, within My sacred courts.

    After the great clearance in the Middle East, only His righteous people will be allowed to live there, those who love the Lord and obey Him. Isaiah 66:20-21, Ezekiel 20:38

    Isaiah 62:10-11 Pass through the gates – clear a road for My people. Build a highway, remove the rocks and make a signal to guide the people. Proclaim to the ends of the earth, say to the offspring of Zion: See your deliverance comes, His reward is with Him and He will make recompense.

    The great gathering of the Lord’s people – the second Exodus, will happen in the same manner as the first Exodus. Leaders [shepherds] will arise to guide the flock, in the spirit of Moses and Elijah. Jeremiah 3:14-15, Isaiah 58:11, Isaiah 43:5-7, Micah 4:6, Isaiah 49:9-13, Isaiah 51:3, Zechariah 8:11-12, Isaiah 40:1-5, Ezekiel 11:17

    Isaiah 62:12 They will be called ‘The Holy people, the Redeemed of God’ and Jerusalem will be called ‘sought after, the City no longer forsaken’.

    The Lord’s faithful Christian people: living in the Holy Land of Beulah, as He created them to live, being a ‘light to the nations’ and witnesses to His salvation. They will send out 144,000 missionaries to every people group, to preach the good news of the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Isaiah 66:19, 1 Peter 2:9-10, Acts 2:39, Jeremiah 31:23-34

    Joel 2:23-27 People of Zion, rejoice – your God will recompense you for the years that others have ravaged your Land. You will again have plenty in your own Land. Then you will know that I am present in Israel and that I and no other am your God. We will know the Lord is present by His deeds. Just as it was at the Exodus. 1 Corinthians 10:4
    Must be before the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign.
     
  9. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    “I never stated the righteous requirements of the law, like the 10 commandments and moral codes, were done away with.”


    I never said that you said that. I was simply citing an example of one element of the Old Covenant that didn’t pass away with the Old Covenant and if the moral requirements of the law were carried over into the New Covenant, then why not all the promises pertaining to Israel, including the earthly promises?


    Christ fulfilled ALL of the laws of Moses, while he was under the old covenant. The only human to ever do so. Through, his death, resurrection, and ascension, he took away the old covenant agreement and established the new covenant agreement.

    Now, Israel no longer needs to follow ALL the Laws of Moses to remain in relationship with God. For under the new covenant, ALL of the righteous requirements of the law have been met in us, who are in Christ.

    And since we are free from the burden of following the law of works to maintain our relationship with God, we are free to fulfill the law by loving our neighbor as ourselves by serving one another in Christ. For because of Christ, even our short comings in loving God and our neighbor will never separate us from Him.


    I am not disputing any of that. That is not the issue.


    “Since the old covenant agreement was taken away and superseded by the new covenant, the promises of the old covenant have been superseded by better promises...if the agreement, between God and the nation of Israel, of following ALL of the laws of moses to receive the earthly blessings and avoiding the earthly curses are still in place. As the old covenant was superseded by the covenant, I would argue the promises of the old covenant were superseded by the better promises of the new covenant.”


    No promise that God makes is ever cancelled out or superseded by another and no promise of God ever goes against another that He has made. If that were the case, His promises would fail.


    “The saving of Israel is mentioned in romans 11, but promises of land restoration from the old covenant are found NO WHERE in romans 11…Thus, the promise of land restoration (the shadow) was fulfilled in the return Israel back to the land after the Babylonian exile, as confirmed by Jeremiah.”


    Whenever we read about the reconciliation of the Jews to God, it ought to be very apparent to anyone reading Romans chapter 11 that this also includes land restoration and if it is not, then they need to educate themselves on what the promises were that God made to Israel, what would happen to them if they did not remain faithful and obedient to God, and if they faced judgment from God for their disobedience, and their eventual restoration and reconciliation to God.

    One of the judgments Israel was warned that they would eventually face if they turned away from following God and persisted in their rebellion against Him was that they would be scattered throughout all the other nations of the world. (Deut. 28:64, 1 Ki. 14:15-16, Jer. 24:10, 29:18, Ezek. 12:14-15) They were also told that if they repented and sought after God once more, they would be restored (Rom. 11:23) but if the Jews are not regathered to the land from which they were driven, then they remain scattered and their restoration is not made complete as foretold in the scriptures.

    Paul did not say that the Jews would only experience a partial restoration. He said that they would be restored in full and without land restoration, their restoration, as it pertains to them, will not be complete.

    This did not apply just to their exile at the hands of the Babylonians and their restoration during the reign of the Persians, but anytime that they should turn from following the Lord comes chastisement and anytime that they should repent comes restoration. This has been a constant cycle. Paul stated that if the rejection of the Gospel by the Jews was used of God for the reconciliation of the rest of the world to Himself, how much more so when the Jews are reconciled to God through Christ. (Rom. 11:12)

    The restoration of Israel has always required that they no longer remain scattered throughout the nations but that they are regathered from all of the nations to which they were driven while under judgment. (Jer. 13:8, 12:15, 31:16, 3:18, 23:3, Ezek. 11:17, 20:41, 28:25, 36:24, 37:23, Zech. 8:7)

    No other people or nation has been promised preservation as the Jews have been promised. God’s promises of preservation to the Jews are eternal promises. (Mal. 3:6) He set them aside for Himself to be as the scriptures say “a peculiar people” (Ex. 19:5, Deut. 14:2, 26:18, Ps. 135:4) to be set apart from the rest of the world to be His representative people and nation here on earth to the rest of the world.

    Granted that they have miserably failed at that many times—and the scriptures make that clear—but then again, many of us who claim Christ have also failed miserably to be the representatives for His Gospel that we are supposed to be.

    So, if we say that land restoration is no longer applicable in the restoration process of Israel, then we are saying that they are going to remain scattered when God has declared that He will regather them again from the nations throughout which they have been dispersed.



    Where does Paul specifically mention the land restoration promise is still in effect under the old covenant? I don't want your interpretation of Paul's epistles, I want clear evidence where Paul specifically mentions the restoration to the land of Israel.



    Paul regarded their status as a chosen people and the promises made to them to still be in effect (Rom. 9:4-5) which would have also included their possession of the land God had given to them. That is the best scriptural evidence that there is to suggest that land restoration is tied to the restoration of the Jews when they no longer is also tied to all promises made to them.

    The land that was given to the Jews has always been tied to every promise made to them. You cannot divorce the two. Jesus never tried to do that. Paul never tried to do that. None of the New Testament scriptures tried to do that and neither should we.
     
  10. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    In response to my position that the old covenant was made null and void, you stated in post #339:

    "Just because the Old Covenant was made null and void by the New Covenant, that does not mean that all that was under the Old Covenant was made obsolete as well as there were elements associated with the Old Covenant that were still carried over into the New covenant—the Ten Commandments and other moral laws for example."

    This appears to be a strong inference here that you conclude I believe that all righteous requirements of the law were done away with.

    The moral standards of God are for all, regardless if one is in a covenantal relationship with God or not.

    Was it wrong for Cain to murder Abel prior to the old covenant? Yes

    Would it have been wrong for Joseph to sleep with Potiphar's wife prior to the old covenant? Yes, Joseph calls it a wicked sin (genesis 39:4).

    Again, the old covenant was AN AGREEMENT between the nation of Israel and God. If Israel obeyed all of God's laws (moral, civil, and ceremonial), they were blessed with Earthly blessings (Deuteronomy 28:1-14). However, if did not obey all of God's laws, then they would be cursed (Deuteronomy 28:15-68).


    The promises of the old covenant are NOT Unconditional. The old covenant was a conditional contract. IF they obey = blessings. IF they disobey = curses.

    This agreement was removed because it had a fault on the side of the nation of Israel. While God kept His end of the agreement, the nation of Israel could not because of their sinful nature.


    Hebrews 8:7-8 For if that first covenant had been without fault, no place would have been sought for a second. But God found fault with the people and said

    Good, we are in agreement then.

    I agree that UNCONDITIONAL promises (Adam, Noah, Abraham, David) made by God are never cancelled or superseded.

    But the old covenant is NOT and unconditional promise. The old covenant is a CONDITIONAL AGREEMENT. IF they obey = blessings. IF they disobey = curses (Deuteronomy 28).

    After the curses were poured out, IF they turn back to the Lord (Deuteronomy 30:2), He would restore them from captivity and bring them back to the land (Deuteronomy 30:3) and circumcise their hearts (Deuteronomy 30:6).

    It should be very apparent, that the restoration in romans 11 is restoration into relationship with God. Romans 9-11 no where mentions "restoration to the land".

    Correct, if the nation of Israel disobeyed the old covenant agreement, the curses of the law would be poured out (Deuteronomy 28:15-68).

    Land restoration is not found in Romans 11:23, nor any verse in romans 9-11. As we can see, not one word about land is mentioned in that verse:

    Romans 11:23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again

    The old covenant agreement promised that after the curses have been poured, IF they turned back to God (Deuteronomy 30:2), then he would:

    1.) Restore them from captivity

    Deuteronomy 30:3a Then He will restore you from captivity and have compassion on you
    2.) gather them from all the nations they were scattered
    Deuteronomy 30:3b and gather you from all the nations to which the LORD your God has scattered you

    Jeremiah confirms this was fulfilled upon the return from Babylonian exile

    Jeremiah 29:10-14 For this is what the LORD says: “When Babylon’s seventy years are complete, I will attend to you and confirm My promise to restore you to this place. For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the LORD, and I will restore you from captivity and gather you from all the nations and places to which I have banished you, declares the LORD. I will restore you to the place from which I sent you into exile.”



    What is the barn? is it the present land of Israel, the new heavens and new earth just heaven?

    Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

    Paul quotes Isaiah in that only A REMNANT of Israel would be saved

    Romans 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the Israelites is like the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

    Paul also states ALL of Israel will be saved.

    Romans 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

    So how do we reconcile these difference? How can only a remnant and yet all of Israel be saved?

    Because not all of Israel is Israel

    Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

    Thus by God saving the remnant of Israel along with the grafted in gentiles, he saves ALL of Israel.

    only under the old covenant agreement. However, the old covenant agreement has been made obsolete. It was superseded by the new covenant.

    Reconciled to God, not restored to the land.

    So Christ's death did not gather the scattered children of God into one?

    John 11:51-52 Caiaphas did not say this on his own. Instead, as high priest that year, he was prophesying that Jesus would die for the nation, and not only for the nation, but also for the scattered children of God, to gather them together into one.

    Jeremiah prophesied that Israel and Judah would be sown among the nations to build them not to destroy them.
    Jeremiah 31:27 The days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and of beast. just as I watched over them to uproot and tear them down, to demolish, destroy, and bring disaster, so will I be attentive to build them and to plant them,” declares the LORD.

    Jesus confirms this through his parable.
    Matthew 13:24-30 Jesus put before them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was asleep, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and slipped away. When the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the weeds also appeared.
    The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ ‘No,’ he said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn.’”

    Do you believe the barn is the present physical land of Israel?

    The conditional requirements of the old covenant do not annul the unconditional promises made to Abraham and his offspring because the offspring is CHRIST. Notice Paul specifically states that the promises (PLURAL) were to Christ. Thus it is Christ who inherits the land of Israel.

    Galatians 3:15-18 To give a human example, brothers:f even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

    The nation of Israel was promised the land conditionally based on their obedience the law. Christ (the offspring) was promised the land unconditionally.

    Whose inheritance were the wicked tenants trying to take?
    Matthew 21:38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.
     
  11. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    More Zionist Futurist Dispensationalist dribble............

    Christian Zionism - a modern-day heresy?
    Christian Zionism = A modern heresy?

    1. Yes
      93 vote(s)
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    2. No
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    ============================
    Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
    [​IMG]Search Wikipedia Encyclopedia:

    Christian Zionism - Wikipedia

    Christian Zionism (Hebrew: ציון‎ + -ism; cf. Isaiah 52:1 (Septuagint: ΝΒ:1): "Σιών […] Ἱερουσαλὴμ πόλις ἡ ἁγία", romanized: "Ziṓn […] Ierousalḕm pólis hē hagía", lit. 'Zion […] Jerusalem, the holy city') is a belief among some Christians that the return of the Jews to the Holy Land and the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948 were in accordance with Bible prophecy. The term began to be used in the mid-20th century, superseding Christian Restorationism.[1][2]

    However, Christian advocacy grew after the Protestant Reformation in support of the restoration of the Jews and has its roots "in seventeenth century England".[3] A contemporary Israeli historian suggests that evangelical Christian Zionists in England of the 1840s "passed this notion on to Jewish circles",[4] while Jewish nationalism in the early 19th century was widely regarded with hostility by British Jews.[5]

    Some Christian Zionists believe that the gathering of the Jews in Israel is a prerequisite for the Second Coming of Jesus.[3][6] The idea has been common in Protestant circles since the Reformation that Christians should actively support a Jewish return to the Land of Israel, along with the parallel idea that the Jews ought to be encouraged to become Christians as a means of fulfilling Biblical prophecy.[7][8][9][1
     
  12. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    You don't understand Bible prophecy or even realities today.
    God WILL have a people in the holy Land, who will be His faithful people,

    Those citizens of Israel at present are the Zionist, communistic and atheistic people that God intends to remove very soon. Jeremiah 12:14, Isaiah 29:1-4, Zechariah 14:7-9
    The people of God, now every faithful Christian, are promised to live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land. Romans 9:24-26 specifically says:.... in the very place that the they [the ancient Israelites] were told 'you are not My people', they [faithful Christians] will be told; 'You are the sons of the Living God'.
    Many other Bible prophesies confirm this destiny for every true Christian. We will be the people God always wanted there, His witnesses, Isaiah 43:8-13, John 15:27, Acts 1:8 and His Light to the nations Isaiah 49:3-8, Matthew 5:14-18
     
  13. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It would also make for a false teaching to state that Jews, under the new covenant, have different promises than non jews. For in Christ, there is no Jew or gentile, but all are one and all are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise.


    All of us in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, share a set of promises in common. But scripture makes it very clear that the Jewish people were also given promises unique to them that were never made to any other nation and which still carry over into the New Testament.


    An Earthly example:

    My first will promises to give my wife everything I own in the event of my death. However, I divorce my first wife. I then remarry. I create a new will, that cancels my first and promises my new wife everything I own in the event of my death. In reality, in the event of my death, my 2nd wife would receive all I own. However, according to your illogical argument, my first wife would still inherit from my belongings. Your argument makes no sense.


    The reason why my argument seems is illogical to you is because you are comparing the relationship of God with His people (Israel and the Church) with a relationship that is completely different. God has never cast Israel aside the way a man may cast away his wife to marry another and the Church of Jesus Christ never has and never will replace Israel. The nation of Israel and the Church are two distinct entities both with promises unique to each as well as promises they both have in common, but this is not the thread to discuss those in detail.


    “It would also make for a false teaching to state that Jews, under the new covenant, have different promises than non jews.


    What makes for a false teaching is to say that a set of promises made before the New Covenant were cancelled by the New Covenant when the New Testament scriptures teach no such thing.


    For in Christ, there is no Jew or gentile, but all are one and all are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise.”


    I would not disagree with that as far as that is concerned in the spiritual sense, but that is not the issue that is at stake.


    Yes, you are cherry picking which promises of the old covenant are still in effect due to your eschatological bias.


    This has nothing to do with an eschatological bias. It has to do with the character and integrity of God.


    Paul never once specifically mentions the restoration to the physical land of Israel. In order to substantiate your claim, you should be able to post scripture from Paul that specifically mentions the return to the land of Israel.


    He never said otherwise either and neither do any of the other New Covenant scriptures. If indeed the promised reestablishment of Israel as a nation within their own land was cancelled out by the New Covenant, the scriptures would have plainly declared it. They do not.


    Paul does, however, mention restoration to God through Christ, many times over.


    Again, that is not the issue. That matter, in and of itself, is settled.


    This argument makes no sense. How can I accuse Paul of cherry picking verses he never actually mentions. You have yet to show where Paul specifically mentions the promises of land restoration in the NT.


    So, rather than face the ramifications of your Preterist position, you would rather say that Paul did not mean that a full restoration of the Jews as a nation meant restoration to their land was included? That has always been included.


    “Paul states God has not rejected his people because at the "PRESENT TIME there is a remnant". Thus Paul himself was proof that God had not rejected his people.”


    That Jewish people still exist, not only as a people but also as a restored nation in a place where they were once a nation before is proof that God has not cast them off. Therefore, we can also be sure that He is not going to cast His Church off either.
     
  14. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    “As we can see, the old covenant was made obsolete by the new covenant. Yet it had not yet completely disappeared, as we can see it was fading away and ready to vanish in the 1st century.”


    But not everything associated with the Old Covenant passed away with the Old Covenant which is why it is vitally important to understand what has been abolished by the New Covenant and what transcends both Covenants.


    “…the nation of Israel reigned sovereignly as an independent nation for about 80 years under the hasmonean dynasty from 110 to 63 BCE.”


    I will admit, I do not know anything about this period but I do know that it was not the fulfillment of Ezekiel chapter 37 because not everything foretold in that chapter did not happen in that period nor has yet happened.



    “Paul quotes hosea 1:10 as being fulfilled in the 1st century. Thus the gathering of Gentile and Jew into the vessels of mercy fulfills God's promise of reuniting the northern and southern kingdom.”



    Paul was referencing that passage of scripture as it pertained to the Gentiles.



    “Thus the fulfillment is not through Israel being recognized as an independent nation, but by Both Jew and Gentile being gathered to God under Christ. The shadow pointing to the reality.”


    That both Jew and Gentile are one in Christ is a fulfillment in the world receiving reconciliation with God in Christ, but that still does not abolish Israel’s status as an earthly nation. In fact, it is the only earthly nation that is destined to abide for all eternity. No such guarantee is given to any other nation.


    “So if you interpret being born again as a spiritual reality and not literally coming out of your mother's womb a 2nd time, why are you interpreting the law, the shadow, as the reality and not the true reality in Christ?”
     
  15. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Based on 2 Peter 3:10-13, and the passages below, this earth does not abide for all eternity.
    It will be replaced by the New Earth.


    Psa 102:24 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.
    Psa 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
    Psa 102:26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:


    Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
    Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.


    We find the heavenly city in Galatians 4:25-26, and Hebrews 11:15-16, and Hebrews 12:22-24.

    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
  16. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Nowhere to be found within the New Covenant, the only Covenant in full force and effect since Calvary, written in the Blood of Messiah, the Divine Testator.

    In God's New Will and Testament, all covenants and promises are fulfilled only in Christ and those who are in Christ.

    The OT covenants and promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.

    If you have made your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following or its equivalent:

    "I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

    This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses in their entirety, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless yet another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.

    Thus we see:

    Hebrews 9
    15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
    16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
    17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

    Hebrews 10
    9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

    Hebrews 8
    13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

    God`s New Will and Testament is everlasting:

    Hebrews 13
    20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.

    There is none greater.

    We see other new promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament in:

    Matthew 21:33-45
    In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

    Galatians 3:16
    Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    2 Corinthians 1:20
    For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

    Hebrews 1:1,2
    1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

    And His New Will and Testament contains even better promises:

    Hebrews 8
    6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

    Such as:

    Hebrews 11
    16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

    Additional promissory clauses in...:

    Romans 8:16-17
    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
    17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    Galatians 3:29
    And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    ...make us who are in Christ joint heirs with Him.

    But notice:
    There are no promissory clauses for anyone, Jew or Gentile, who is not in Christ.
     
  17. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    “Israel was restored from captivity upon the Babylonian exile and did return to the land, all under the old covenant agreement. This is confirmed by a prophecy from Jeremiah.”


    Deuteronomy 30:1-6 does not strictly refer to the Babylonian captivity, but to any time the Jews are driven out of their land due to persistent sin and rebellion against God, but who then later repent and as a result are returned to their land.


    “Christ was born in Israel, after the Babylonian exile. Christ fulfilled the righteous requirements of the law for us through the cross, then the spirit was poured out. This resulted in Israel's circumcised hearts and being made alive. All of this happened in the land of Israel After Israel had been restored to the land.”


    As it pertains to Israel as a whole, that would have been the case if they had not rejected Christ, but because they rejected Christ, they remained dead in their sins and uncircumcised in their hearts. But that will not last. (Rom. 11:26) Nevertheless, their rejection of Christ delayed much of might have otherwise been fulfilled much sooner in history.


    “Thus again, the fulfillment of the law finds its purpose in Christ, and not in the restoration of the nation of Israel back to the literal physical land.”



    Just because land restoration may be contained in the law does not make the fulfillment thereof dependent on the law. In fact, land restoration, along with reconciliation with God, was foretold by the prophets as well.



    “Should I assume you don't believe Jesus is the shepherd?”



    No, I believe that Jesus is the Shepherd that He says He is. He will be that Shepherd who will rule over the nation and from there, the entire earth as King. But as for David’s part and what that means for sure, we do not yet know how that will play out because that is a prophecy not yet fulfilled.



    “If God does not count at hand or soon as literally at hand or soon, Then why did he tell Daniel the vision of the 2,300 mornings and evenings was for a distant time?”



    2,300 morning and evenings would have amounted to roughly four years and would not have qualified as a distant time. 2,300 years would better qualify as a distant time. But the coming of Christ began an indefinite period of time. Daniel’s prophetic time clock had come to a halt. Before the coming of Christ, the weeks (each one being seven years) progressed normally, but when He came to earth, the flow of the prophetic timeclock was altered, which is why we are told that we do not know when the return of the Lord will be.



    “The 69th week is indefinite? By that logic, were still waiting for the cross, for Christ would be crucified AFTER the 69th week.”




    From the restoration of Jerusalem and the temple to the coming of the Messiah were 7 weeks and sixty-two weeks; (Dan. 9:25) a total of 69 weeks. It is in the 69th week that Jesus was crucified and was then raised again. There a number of reasons why the prophetic time clock has stopped.



    1. The Jews rejected their Messiah and thus delayed fulfillment of those weeks.


    2. The Gospel needs time to go throughout all the world.


    3. The Church has not always been faithful in going about the Father’s business.


    4. God is giving people time to repent. He does not desire to bring judgment. (2 Pet. 3:9)


    “Were the Parthians a part of the roman empire? Were the Germanic tribes a part of the roman empire. How does the roman civil wars not qualify as wars and rumors of wars?”


    The Romans had ruled virtually all of Europe, North Africa, Asia Minor, and some of the Middle East. The empire did extend into Germany but it was a difficult area to maintain control of due to Roman forces being stretched thin. I never said that the Roman civil wars did not necessarily qualify as wars and rumors of wars.


    The context is the destruction of the temple. Matthew 24:1-15


    Jesus began with the destruction of the temple but then shifted to what was to come upon the world at large, not just the Roman empire.


    “So you don't believe earthquakes and famines, besides the one's mentioned in scripture, occurred in the 1st century? So you don't believe any earthquakes outside of rome happened in the 1st century?”


    I never said that. What I did say is that earthquakes, famines, pestilences, wars, and enmity between nations and kingdoms have escalated since then and have become more widespread.
     
  18. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    We find the summary of Daniel 9:24 fulfilled in the Book of Hebrews and the Book of Acts.

    Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    If I agree to paint you house "after" 69 weeks, it will not be painted until the 70th week or after.
    Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    The covenant with the many in Daniel 9:27 is the covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28.
    It was promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and was fulfilled in blood at Calvary.
    It is quoted as fulfilled by the author of the Book of Hebrews in Hebrews 8:6-13.


    Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


    Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
    Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
    Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

    Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

    Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews for a period of about 7 years, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles. This was the 70th week of Daniel during the first century.


    Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner


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  19. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Paul quotes hosea 1:10 and 2:23 as being fulfilled with the inclusion of the gentiles with the Jews in the vessels of mercy IN THE 1st CENTURY.

    Romans 9:23-26 What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory including us, whom He has called not only from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles? As He says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘My People’ who are not My people, and I will call her ‘My Beloved’ who is not My beloved,” and, “It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

    Where were the gentiles declared God's people?

    Peter received his vision that God had made the gentiles clean while living in Joppa, which was in the land of Israel

    Acts 10:8,15 He explained what had happened and sent them to Joppa.The voice spoke to him a second time: “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”

    Peter understood that the gospel was to everyone in Caesarea. The gentiles first received the Spirit in Caesarea. Caesarea is in the land of Israel

    Acts 10:34,45 Then Peter began to speak: “I now truly understand that God does not show favoritism, but welcomes those from every nation who fear Him and do what is right. He has sent this message to the people of Israel, proclaiming the gospel of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. the circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were astounded that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles

    Thus the "in that very place" is land Israel where God declared the gentiles his people in the 1st century.

    Not sure how you are extrapolating that to some future where all believers live in the present land of Israel.


     
  20. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Correct, they were given unique conditional promises THROUGH THE OLD COVENANT (Deuteronomy 28:1-14, Deuteronomy 30:1-6). However, is this agreement still in effect? According to scripture, no it is not.

    Hebrews 8:13 By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

    Please show, WITH NT SCRIPTURE, which specific conditional promises have been carried over from the old covenant into the new covenant to substantiate your claim.

    God never divorced Israel? I disagree. The northern kingdom was divorced from God for their disobedience.

    Jeremiah 3:8 Because faithless Israel had committed adultery, I gave her a certificate of divorce and sent her away.

    Hosea 1:9 And the LORD said, “Name him Lo-ammi,d for you are not My people, and I am not your God.

    Additionally, the Jews, who had remained in the old covenant agreement, had to die to the law in order to belong to Christ. For one cannot be under both the old covenant and the new covenant, for that would adultery.

    Romans 7:1-4 Do you not know, brothers (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? For instance, a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. So then, if she is joined to another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law and is not an adulteress, even if she marries another man.
    Therefore, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

    So again, how can the conditional promises of the old covenant apply to the those have been divorced from God (northern kingdom)? How can the conditional promises of the old covenant apply to those who have died to the law, so that they may belong to another?


    Incorrect, the church and Israel are not 2 distinct entities. They are the same. The new covenant was made with the house of Judah and the house of Israel through the cross. The new covenant IS NOT LIKE THE OLD COVENANT.

    Hebrews 8:7-8 For if that first covenant had been without fault, no place would have been sought for a second. But God found fault with the people and said:“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
    when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, because they did not abide by My covenant, and I disregarded them,

    The gentiles were grafted in with the Jews to become one entity, NOT TWO.
    Romans 11:17 Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root

    Ephesians 2:15 abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace

    the gentiles are fellow heirs along with the Jews in Christ.
    Ephesians 3:6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are fellow heirs, fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus.

    I'm not arguing that the unconditional promises made to Adam, Noah, Abraham, or David were cancelled. They were absolutely not cancelled. They find their fulfillment in Christ. However, the old covenant was an agreement with conditional promises between God and the nation of Israel. It was only mean to be in place until the coming of Christ.

    galatians 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made

    As scripture clearly states, the new covenant superseded the old covenant. The new covenant has BETTER promises. the new covenant is NOT LIKE THE OLD COVENANT.

    Hebrews 8:6-8 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second. For he finds fault with them when he says:“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
    For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.

    If the new covenant is NOT LIKE THE OLD COVEVANT and if the new covenant has BETTER PROMISES than the old covenant, why would the conditional promises of the old covenant remain?

    I can't follow your logic here. on one hand you state the church and Israel are separate entities, but on the other hand you agree that Jew and gentile are Abraham's offspring, thus they are one.

    Yes, it has to do with eschatological bias. You still have provided one NT scripture that clearly and undisputably supports your position.

    This appears to be an "argument from ignorance", which is a fallacy in informal logic.

    You appear believe the conditional promise of land restoration under the old covenant is still in effect, because the new testament does not mention that specific promise was specifically done away with. That is a fallacy in informal logic.

    I on the other hand have provided scripture that states the old covenant was made obsolete and taken away. Thus the absence of NT scripture that mentions restoration the land substantiates my "argument from silence".

    I am not adding to Paul's words. In order to support your argument that restoration means to the land, you should be able to post NT scripture that specifically mentions land restoration, and not your addition to what Paul "actually means".

     
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