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Is the KJV 1900 God's perfect preserved word?

Discussion in 'Bibliology & Hermeneutics' started by A.ModerateOne, Jan 23, 2021.

  1. A.ModerateOne

    A.ModerateOne Member Supporter

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    "And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him." Hebrews 1:6 KJV 1900

    v6 quotes Deut. 32:43 which in the KJV 1900 actually reads:

    "Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people:
    For he will avenge the blood of his servants,
    And will render vengeance to his adversaries,
    And will be merciful unto his land, and to his people." Deut. 32:43 KJV 1900

    The quote in Hebrews 1:6, "let all the angels of God worship him", is not found in the Hebrew the KJV is based upon, but comes from the Greek Septuagint, LXXE

    "Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people." (Deut 32:43 LXXE)

    1. If the writer of Hebrews quotes Dt.32:43 from the LXX, 'he saith' he approves it as inspired.
    2. If any KJV does not have this quote in Dt. 32:43 it is not God's perfect preserved word.
    3. Who has the authority to say the KJV 1900 is God's perfect preserved word if no KJV is?

    I value and use the KJV, but I cannot understand the reasoning behind any form of KJV Only.
     
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  2. Rene Loup

    Rene Loup Saved Wolf Among Sheep

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    If you truly want to read God's Holy Word in its purest form, you will need to be knowledgeable in the Hebrew and Ancient Greek languages. These are the original languages of the original Bible.

    There really is no perfect Bible version. Everyone has different literacy levels and God wants even the uneducated. If one is serious about seeking truth, it is strongly recommended to own as many Bible versions as possible. I currently possess three physical copies of the Bible: KJV, NKJV, and NIV. Whenever I post Scripture on this forum, I make an effort to provide links to the following Bible editions: KJV, NKJV, NIV, and ICB. There are many more Bible versions on the website they are all linked to.

    I generally do not pay attention to KJV purists. Reason being is that there are a couple of disputed passages presented as undisputed truth, particularly Mark 16:9-20 and John 7:53-8:11. People may accuse me of blasphemy but I highly recommend doing research on these passages. The Bible does give warnings about editing God's word and even today, there are corrupted Bible versions created out of selfish ambition.
     
  3. Valletta

    Valletta Well-Known Member

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    First, about two thirds of the NT quotations of the OT came from the Septuagint. Second, a lot of the KJV is ultimately from a hurried Greek translation by a Catholic priest named Erasmus. Erasmus did not have the best texts to work with and even had to "back translate" some text from Latin. Catholic priests and monks laboriously copied text by hand but mistakes were made, today scholars can find out when and where errors crept into copies of Holy Scripture. Catholics have employed scholars from a variety of religions in order to obtain the most accurate translations possible.
     
  4. A.ModerateOne

    A.ModerateOne Member Supporter

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    If I decided to learn the Hebrew and Greek of the Bible it would be as a hobby or avocation and then it would not be truly scholarly as if by a professional whose life's work is the study of the original languages of Scripture. In this day we have access to so many language helps for the English speakers we can study those men, and still find they don't always agree. For instance I have the BDAG on my Bible software and also the NET2 Bible which goes into great depth on translation issues. We have many helps online and in hardcover that we can use in biblical interpretation. It often comes down to using other interpretation principles of common sense deciding between scholars when they do not agree.

    For instance I have access to at least 5 Greek-English Interlinear NTs which are pretty literal, word for word, but even there often there is variance as to translation. I have found the idea of the literal word for word, thought for thought, meaning for meaning distinctions rather misleading. I often find a more dynamic translation such as the New English Bible or Revised English Bible giving a more accurate meaning or easier to grasp idea than a literal word for word.
     
  5. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

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    I am sympathetic to your misgivings about KJV only. But I'm not sure this particular instance is only found in the KJV. You find the same mention of angels worshipping in other versions. The writer of Hebrews used the Septuagint reading, I'm guessing.

    There is a larger issue here with NT writers using the Septuagint, when the Septuagint inserts material not found in the Hebrew (OT, not the NT book) manuscripts.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
  6. Rene Loup

    Rene Loup Saved Wolf Among Sheep

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    Hence why there is no perfect Bible translation. Ancient Greek would obviously have a much different structure than Modern English. English itself has also evolved over time. Here is a video showing how far back in time one can go and still understand English:



    Give or take a few hundred years, another Bible version may have to be made using a future English language. A Bible seemingly written on a text message may sound crazy, but it is not entirely outside the realm of possibility.
     
  7. A.ModerateOne

    A.ModerateOne Member Supporter

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    In my original post I quoted the LXXe by Brenton. There are a couple variations of the phrase in later Septuagint translations of Deut. 32:43as below:

    "...and let all the divine sons do obeisance to him." (A New English Translation of the Septuagint of 2009/2014) NETS: Electronic Edition

    "And worship Him, all the sons of God;" (St. Athanasius Academy Septuagint, SAAS) as found in the 2008 "The Orthodox Study Bible"

    Some of our current English translations include these updated translations from the Septuagint:

    "... worship him, all you gods!" (NRSV, 1989)

    "... bow to him, all you divine beings!" (New American Bible, Rev. Ed. - Catholic

    "...and let all of God’s angels worship him.." (New Living Translation, 2015)

    If I do believe the writer of Hebrews is Holy Spirit inspired and our English translations are correct on Hebrews 1:6; therefore am I not justified in believing the NLT translation of Deut. 32:43 is the accurate one as to the meaning? Just as Matthew 1:23 reads "virgin", is that not the proper meaning of Isaiah 7:14 where the literal word for word Hebrew in Isaiah is actually "young woman"? Is that an accurate approach, letting the inspired NT writers give the true meaning of an OT word, even if the Hebrew in the OT is different in a literal word for word translation?
     
  8. Tigger45

    Tigger45 St. Francis Supporter

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    Don’t the Septuagint manuscripts (Greek) quotes match up better with the NT verses that are being quoted than the Masoretic manuscripts (Hebrew) do overall?
     
  9. A.ModerateOne

    A.ModerateOne Member Supporter

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    In my earlier years I would say I was a KJV preferred or standard though not exactly KJV Only as some are today, and the KJV is still my primary study Bible. Yet, it was the fact Jesus and the Apostles quoted more often from the Septuagint rather than the Hebrew that caused me to pause and reflect on that fact. No one thinks the Septuagint was without error, even in its various editions, but Jesus nowhere is recorded as warning his disciples about any misleading translation of the Septuagint. I end up with study and research to get to the closest an accurate rendering of a passage as possible for the written word of God, which is our standard and on occasion I still prefer the KJV translation, but am more inclined to modern scholarship. But most important, the key doctrines, especially about salvation are so clear in any translation we are not led astray on that with Holy Spirit illumination. I do not include in "any translation" the perverted New World Translation of the Watchtower.
     
  10. Tigger45

    Tigger45 St. Francis Supporter

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    ^Agreed^ When I dedicated my life to following Christ thirty years ago I primarily read the KJV 1611. Is it perfect no, but it is a very good translation and it’s poetic writing style is unmatched IMO. When referencing verses I use several translations but when it comes to memorizing scripture its KJV only for me.
     
  11. Valletta

    Valletta Well-Known Member

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    There were numerous Catholic translations of Biblical text into English long before the KJV.
     
  12. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Yeah take a look at Galatians 5:4. That’s definitely not translated correctly.

    Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” KJV 1900

    “You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace.”
    ‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:4‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬


    Galatians 5:4
    κατηργήθητε (severed) G2673 V-AIP-2P ἀπὸ (you) G575 Prep Χριστοῦ (Christ) G5547 N-GMS οἵτινες (who) G3748 RelPro-NMP ἐν (by) G1722 Prep νόμῳ (law) G3551 N-DMS δικαιοῦσθε (justified) G1344 V-PIM/P-2P τῆς (the) G3588 Art-GFS χάριτος (grace) G5485 N-GFS ἐξεπέσατε (fallen) G1601 V-AIA-2P
     
  13. Rene Loup

    Rene Loup Saved Wolf Among Sheep

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    I do not doubt that at all. King James Version was first published in 1611.[1] The English language has been around for longer that that.[2] Here is the Lord's Prayer from Old English (c. 10th Century AD) to Late Modern English (1970):

    The Lord's Prayer

    For the 10th Century AD, it would obviously have to be written down for anyone who could read at the time. The King James Version was, and still is, considered one of the most popular and refined English language Bible versions in existence.[1] Mind you, it would require a 12th Grade reading level to fully comprehend.[3]

    1. King James Version | Bible, History, & Background
    2. English language | Origin, History, Development, Characteristics, & Facts
    3. Bible Translation Reading Levels - Bible Gateway Blog
     
  14. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    The reading level is determined by a computer algorithm that doesn't take early 17th Century English into account. The King James is a wonderful historic Bible but compared to modern translations such as the NIV, NASB, NET, etc. it is difficult to understand accurately by people living today.
     
  15. Rene Loup

    Rene Loup Saved Wolf Among Sheep

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    I don't know about the United States, but here in Canada, works by William Shakespeare are not studied until high school (Starting in Grade 10, where I live). Shakespeare's work came out roughly around the same time as the KJV Bible. Many "thees" and "thous" which many outside of more advanced high school English Language Arts classes will have a harder time comprehending. Harder, but not impossible.
     
  16. A.ModerateOne

    A.ModerateOne Member Supporter

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    Is the NASB2020 translation more correct, or did it move more into a dynamic equivalence approach rather the literal word for word of the KJV? The NASB2020 you quote reads similar to the 1989 Revised English Bible and I underline what I mean:

    "When you seek to be justified by way of law, you are cut off from Christ: you have put yourselves outside God’s grace." (Gal 5:4 REB)

    The KJV seems closer to the literal word for word of the Greek-English Interlinears:

    NA28 "(you) were released from Christ who by law (you) are justified (from) the from grace you fell away"

    NA27 "you were estranged from Christ whoever by law are being justified, you fell from grace."

    21 Eberhard Nestle "Ye were discharged from Christ who by law are justified, [the] ye fell from grace."

    TR-Berry "Ye are deprived of all effect from the Christ, whosoever in law are being justified; grace ye fell from."

    TR-scripture4all "ye were exempted from the Christ who-any in law are being justified of the grace ye-fall-out"
    Online Greek Interlinear Bible

    I'm sure if I'm talking with a person who thinks you can lose your salvation, he'll point out that an idea of 'once saved always saved' is somehow influencing the REB & NASB change from the literal word for word to an interpretation. Yet, I think the REB and NASB are correct in the meaning of the verse.
     
  17. GreekOrthodox

    GreekOrthodox Psalti Chrysostom

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    What about the 1631 KJV by the printers Robert Barker and Martin Lucas? It only had one very minor miniscule mistake!

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Resident Alien

    Resident Alien New Member

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    Even if you have a perfect understanding of Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic you still won't know the perfectly inspired Word of God unless you have access to an original autograph. The autographs are the only documents we can say for sure are without error. Since we have no autographs we don't know how much of the originals have been preserved. Textual criticism has brought us a lot closer but without autographs we're still uncertain about some passages.

    No translation is perfect, but it's safe to say the KJV is one of the worst I know of. That people still argue it's God's only perfect translation betrays an ulterior motive. The KJV has some bizarre translations which people have used to support some bizarre theories; to deny the KJV's perfection would bring all these ingrained ideas crumbling down.

    The KJV is based on Byzantine text type manuscripts. Proponents of the Byzantize manuscripts believe they're the most reliable because many more of this type of manuscript have been preserved. The logic is that since there are so many of these manuscripts they must have been considered the most reliable and were copied more frequently. However, the Byzantine manuscripts upon which the KJV is based are all later manuscripts. On the other side of the debate there are much older manuscripts but fewer of them. The argument here is these manuscripts are more reliable because they were written earlier and closer to the time when the events they describe actually occurred.

    Both sides have merits I suppose. To me, the earlier manuscripts would seem more reliable even though there are fewer of them. The Byzantine manuscripts were probably copied more frequently simply because they were more accessible or they preserved doctrinal beliefs that served some agenda.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2021
  19. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    Is this really your first post? If so, welcome to the discussion.

    There have been many, many posts about the various English translations, with the usual defense of the KJV by the KJVOs and others, but your statement is clear, accurate, and true. Thanks for posting it and again, welcome.
     
  20. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    Job 39:9-10...

    "Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?
    Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow?
    or will he harrow the valleys after thee?" KJV 1900

    “Will the wild ox consent to serve you?
    Will it stay by your manger at night?
    Can you hold it to the furrow with a harness?
    Will it till the valleys behind you?" NIV
     
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