Is the Holy Spirit really a third individual person?

[Doveaman]

A person is a distinct individual having separate thoughts and actions that are uniquely his own.

The thoughts and actions of the Holy Spirit are not separate or uniquely His own, but are the thoughts and actions of the Father and Son.

“We know that we live in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.” -- (1 John 4:13).
“For through Him [the Son] we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.” -- (Ephesians 2:18)

The thoughts and actions of the Holy Spirit in us are the thoughts and actions of the Father and Son in us.

How, then, is the Holy Spirit a third individual person if His thoughts and actions are not uniquely His own?

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Those verses do not say what you think they say.

 

[ViaCrucis]

A person is a distinct individual having separate thoughts and actions that are uniquely his own.

The thoughts and actions of the Holy Spirit are not separate or uniquely His own, but are the thoughts and actions of the Father and Son.

“We know that we live in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.” -- (1 John 4:13).
“For through Him [the Son] we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.” -- (Ephesians 2:18)

The thoughts and actions of the Holy Spirit in us are the thoughts and actions of the Father and Son in us.

How, then, is the Holy Spirit a third individual person if His thoughts and actions are not uniquely His own?

Because the Spirit is distinct from the Father and the Son. Jesus says He will send "another comforter". If Jesus had wanted to say, "I'll send myself in a different form" He would have said that. If He wanted to say, "you'll get some sort of force from the Father" He would have said that as well.

But He speaks of the Spirit as distinct from both Himself and His Father.

Likewise, we see at His baptism that the Father speaks, "This is My beloved Son" and the Spirit Himself descends in the form of a dove. There are three.

Not two.
Not four.

Three.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Der Alte]

A person is a distinct individual having separate thoughts and actions that are uniquely his own.
The thoughts and actions of the Holy Spirit are not separate or uniquely His own, but are the thoughts and actions of the Father and Son.
“We know that we live in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.” -- (1 John 4:13).
“For through Him [the Son] we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.” -- (Ephesians 2:18)
The thoughts and actions of the Holy Spirit in us are the thoughts and actions of the Father and Son in us.
How, then, is the Holy Spirit a third individual person if His thoughts and actions are not uniquely His own?

A very good question. The Holy Spirit has at least 72 distinct personal characteristics. These include, Access to God, Anoints for Service, Assures, Authors Scripture, Baptizes, Believers Born of, Calls and Commissions, Cleanses, Comforts, Communion with believers, Convicts of sin, Counsels, Creates, Empowers, Empowers Believers, Fellowship with believers, Fills, Forbids action, Gives gifts, Glorifies Christ, Guides in truth, Helps our weakness, Indwells believers, Inspires prayer, Intercedes, Interprets Scripture, Leads, Liberates, Molds Character, Produces fruit, Raises from the dead, Regenerates, Reveals, Sanctifies, Seals, Sends, Sent, Strengthens, Testifies of Jesus, Victory over flesh, Warns, Worship helper
The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. He is fully God. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, has a distinct will, a distinct mind, a distinct self, and can speak. He is alive. He is a person. He is not particularly visible in the Bible because His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus (John 15:26).
Some heterodox religious groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., claim e.g. that the Holy Spirit is only an impersonal force (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 406-407). This is totally false. If the Holy Spirit was merely an impersonal force or power, He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Ephesians 4:30); and He would not have a will (1 Corinthians 12:11), a self, (John 16:13), or a mind, (Romans 8:27).
The Holy Spirit is a person the same as the Father and the Son are, within the Trinity.

Names of the Spirit
1. God -Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27, Hebrews 3:7-11, Hebrews 10:15-17
2. Lord - 2 Corinthians 3:18
3. Spirit - 1 Corinthians 2:10
4. Spirit of God - 1 Corinthians 3:16
5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26
6. Eternal Spirit - Hebrews 9:14
Attributes of (9)
7. Eternal -Hebrews 9:14
8. Omnipotent - Luke 1:35
9. Omnipresent - Psalms 139:7-10
10. Distinct Will from the father and the son– 1 Corinthians 12:11
11. Loves - Romans 15:30
12. Speaks - Acts 8:29; Acts 13:2
13. Distinct Mind from the father and the son – Romans 8:27
14. Distinct Self from the father and the son – John 16:13
15. Alive – John 14:17
Symbols of (3)
16. Dove - Matthew 3:15
17. Wind - John 3:5
18. Fire - Acts 2:3
Sins Against (6)
19. Blasphemy - Matthew 12:31
20. Resist (Unbelief) - Acts 7:51
21. Insult - Hebrews 10:29
22. Lied to - Acts 5:3
23. Grieved - Ephesians 4:30
24. Quench - 1 Thessalonians 5:19
Power in Christ's Life (6)
25. Conceived of - Matthew 1:18-20
26. Baptism - Matthew 3:15
27. Led by - Luke 4:1
28. Filled with Power - Luke 4:14, Luke 4:18
29. Witness of Jesus - John 15:26
30. Raised Jesus - Romans 8:11
The Works of the Holy Spirit (42)
1 Access to God - Ephesians 2:18
2 Anoints for Service - Luke 4:18
3 Assures - Romans 8:15-16; Galatians 4:6
4 Authors Scripture - 2 Peter 1:20-21
5 Baptizes - John 1:32-34; 1 Corinthians 12:13-14
6 Believers Born of - John 3:3-6
7 Calls and Commissions - Acts 13:24; Acts 20:28
8 Cleanses - 2 Thessalonians 3:13; 1 Peter 1:2
9 Comforts - Acts 9:31
10 Communion with believers – 2 Corinthians 13:14
11 Convicts of sin - John 16:9, John 16:14
12 Counsels - John 14:16
13 Creates - Genesis 1:2; Job 33:4
14 Empowers - 1 Thessalonians 1:5
15 Empowers Believers - Luke 24:49
16 Fellowship with believers – Philippians 2:1
17 Fills - Acts 2:4; Acts 4:29-31; Acts 5:18-20; Acts 9:17
18 Forbids action - Acts 16:6
19 Gives gifts - 1 Corinthians 12:8-11
20 Glorifies Christ - John 16:14
21 Guides in truth - John 16:13
22 Helps our weakness - Romans 8:26
23 Indwells believers - Romans 8:9-14; Galatians 4:6
24 Inspires prayer – Ephesians 6:18; Jude 20
25 Intercedes -Romans 8:26
26 Interprets Scripture - 1 Corinthians 2:1, 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 1:17
27 Leads - Romans 8:14
28 Liberates - Romans 8:2
29 Molds Character - Galatians 5:22-23
30 Produces fruit - Galatians 5:22-23
31 Raises from the dead - Romans 8:11
32 Regenerates - Titus 3:5
33 Reveals – Luke 2:26
34 Sanctifies - Romans 15:16
35 Seals - Ephesians 1:13-14; Ephesians 4:30
36 Sends - Acts 13:4
37 Sent - Galatians 4:6; 1 Peter 1:12
38 Strengthens - Ephesians 3:16; Acts 1:8; Acts 2:4; 1 Corinthians 2:4
39 Testifies of Jesus - John 15:26
40 Victory over flesh - Romans 8:2-4; Galatians 4:6
41 Warns – Acts 20:23
42 Worship helper – Philippians 3:3
[91 total scripture]​

Sources Consulted:
CARM.org
DTL.org/Trinity

 

[Paul Yohannan]

A very good question. The Holy Spirit has at least 72 distinct personal characteristics. These include, Access to God, Anoints for Service, Assures, Authors Scripture, Baptizes, Believers Born of, Calls and Commissions, Cleanses, Comforts, Communion with believers, Convicts of sin, Counsels, Creates, Empowers, Empowers Believers, Fellowship with believers, Fills, Forbids action, Gives gifts, Glorifies Christ, Guides in truth, Helps our weakness, Indwells believers, Inspires prayer, Intercedes, Interprets Scripture, Leads, Liberates, Molds Character, Produces fruit, Raises from the dead, Regenerates, Reveals, Sanctifies, Seals, Sends, Sent, Strengthens, Testifies of Jesus, Victory over flesh, Warns, Worship helper
The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. He is fully God. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, has a distinct will, a distinct mind, a distinct self, and can speak. He is alive. He is a person. He is not particularly visible in the Bible because His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus (John 15:26).
Some heterodox religious groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., claim e.g. that the Holy Spirit is nothing but an impersonal force (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 406-407). This is totally false. If the Holy Spirit was merely an impersonal force or power, He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); and He would not have a will (1 Corinthians 12:11), a self, (Jn 16:13), or a mind, (Rom 8:27).
The Holy Spirit is a person the same as the Father and the Son are, within the Trinity.

Names of the Spirit
1. God -Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27, Hebrews 3:7-11, Hebrews 10:15-17
2. Lord - 2 Corinthians. 3:18
3. Spirit - 1 Corinthians 2:10
4. Spirit of God - 1 Corinthians 3:16
5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26
6. Eternal Spirit - Hebrews. 9:14
Attributes of (9)
7. Eternal -Hebrews. 9:14
8. Omnipotent - Luke 1:35
9. Omnipresent - Psalms 139:710
10. Distinct Will from the father and the son– 1 Corinthians 12:11
11. Loves - Romans 15:30
12. Speaks - Acts 8:29; Acts 13:2
13. Distinct Mind from the father and the son – Rom 8:27
14. Distinct Self from the father and the son – John 16:13
15. Alive – John 14:17
Symbols of (3)
16. Dove - Matthew 3:15
17. Wind - John 3:5
18. Fire - Acts 2:3
Sins Against (6)
19. Blasphemy - Matthew 12:31
20. Resist (Unbelief) - Acts 7:51
21. Insult - Hebrews 10:29
22. Lied to - Acts 5:3
23. Grieved - Ephesians 4:30
24. Quench - 1 Thessalonians 5:19
Power in Christ's Life (6)
25. Conceived of - Matthew 1:18-20
26. Baptism - Matthew 3:15
27. Led by - Luke 4:1
28. Filled with Power - Luke 4:14,18
29. Witness of Jesus - John 15:26
30. Raised Jesus - Rom 8:11
The Works of the Holy Spirit (42)
1 Access to God - Ephesians 2:18
2 Anoints for Service - Luke 4:18
3 Assures - Romans 8:15-16; Gal 4:6
4 Authors Scripture - 2 Pet 1:20-21
5 Baptizes - John 1:32-34; 1 Corinthians 12:13-14
6 Believers Born of - John 3:3-6
7 Calls and Commissions - Acts 13:24; Acts 20:28
8 Cleanses - 2 Thessalonians 3:13; 1 Pet. 1:2
9 Comforts - Acts 9:31
10 Communion with believers – 2 Cor 13:14
11 Convicts of sin - John 16:9,14
12 Counsels - John 14:16
13 Creates - Genesis 1:2; Job 33:4
14 Empowers - 1 Thessalonians 1:5
15 Empowers Believers - Luke 24:49
16 Fellowship with believers – Philippians 2:1
17 Fills - Acts 2:4; Acts 4:29-31; Acts 5:18-20; Acts 9:17
18 Forbids action - Acts 16:6
19 Gives gifts - 1 Corinthians 12:8-11
20 Glorifies Christ - John 16:14
21 Guides in truth - John 16:13
22 Helps our weakness - Romans 8:26
23 Indwells believers - Romans 8:9-14; Galatians 4:6
24 Inspires prayer – Ephesians 6:18; Jude 20
25 Intercedes -Romans 8:26
26 Interprets Scripture - 1 Corinthians 2:1,14; Ephesians 1:17
27 Leads - Romans 8:14
28 Liberates - Romans 8:2
29 Molds Character - Galatians 5:22-23
30 Produces fruit - Galatians 5:22-23
31 Raises from the dead - Romans 8:11
32 Regenerates - Titus 3:5
33 Reveals – Luke 2:26
34 Sanctifies - Romans 15:16
35 Seals - Ephesians 1:13-14; Ephesians 4:30
36 Sends - Acts 13:4
37 Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Peter 1:12
38 Strengthens - Eph 3:16; Acts 1:8; 2:4; 1 Corinthians 2:4
39 Testifies of Jesus - John 15:26
40 Victory over flesh - Romans 8:2-4; Galatians 4:6
41 Warns – Acts 20:23
42 Worship helper – Philippians 3:3
[91 total scripture]​

Sources Consulted:
CARM.org
DTL.org/Trinity

You are the best and most patient apologist on CF.com!

 

[Kenny'sID]

"you'll get some sort of force from the Father" He would have said that as well.

Yet the comforter could easily mean force in spite of your claim. Point being, your claim is far from valid.

I could easily say, if Jesus wanted to send us a person, he would have said person instead of comforter, he did not.

No reason to believe this is a person, and IMO it has and always will be the Spirit of God, as in Gods thoughts, his mind, among other things.

"Holy Spirit" see the connection?

It's like the spirit of Satan, same thing, but in reverse, and it is not a person, it is the thoughts/ways of Satan.

As to those other things I mentioned, like healing, raising the dead, I at least consider he took that out for the most part because of what man did with it. Like speaking in tongues, people used it all for their own recognition. If that or any of these other gifts are still out there they are few and far in between at least the real stuff is, the fakes still abound.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Those verses do not say what you think they say.

What do they say?

 

[Jezmeyah]

A person is a distinct individual having separate thoughts and actions that are uniquely his own.

The thoughts and actions of the Holy Spirit are not separate or uniquely His own, but are the thoughts and actions of the Father and Son.

“We know that we live in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.” -- (1 John 4:13).
“For through Him [the Son] we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.” -- (Ephesians 2:18)

The thoughts and actions of the Holy Spirit in us are the thoughts and actions of the Father and Son in us.

How, then, is the Holy Spirit a third individual person if His thoughts and actions are not uniquely His own?

The definition that you give which describes a person, is written by people who didn't take into account the Biblical text, but is only regarding a human individual. Which according to the two scriptural examples that you give, doesn't fit with that human description.

Since you have pointed out that the thoughts and actions of the Holy Spirit are the thoughts and actions of the Father and Son. Then it's not Biblically possible to single out the Holy Spirit as if He is somehow different from the Father and the Son.

The Bible does not indicate that The Personages of the Trinity have thoughts and actions that are uniquely their own (as if they were individuals separate from each other). But the Bible speaks of the unification of the thoughts and actions of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.. which are uniquely unified as their own, in opposing comparison to every individual human being.

We as individual human beings, we as Christians are to concern ourselves with being unified in our thoughts and our actions, to be with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Der Alte]

Yet the comforter could easily mean force in spite of your claim. Point being, your claim is far from valid.
I could easily say, if Jesus wanted to send

us a person, he would have said person instead of comforter, he did not.
No reason to believe this is a person, and

IMO it has and always will be the Spirit of God, as in Gods thoughts, his mind, among other things.
"Holy Spirit" see the connection?

It's like the spirit of Satan, same thing, but in reverse, and it is not a person, it is the thoughts/ways of Satan.

As to those other things I mentioned, like healing, raising the dead, I at least consider he took that out for the most part because of what man

did with it. Like speaking in tongues, people used it all for their own recognition. If that or any of these other gifts are still out there they

are few and far in between at least the real stuff is, the fakes still abound.

Note all the speculation in this post. Where is anyone in the Bible referred to as a "person?" I am not aware of even one occurrence, so why would the Holy Spirit be introduced as a person? But as I have shown above the Holy Spirit has at least 72 personal characteristics including;
Access to God, Anoints for Service, Assures, Authors Scripture, Baptizes, Believers Born of, Calls and Commissions, Cleanses, Comforts, Communion with believers, Convicts of sin, Counsels, Creates, Empowers, Empowers Believers, Fellowship with believers, Fills, Forbids action, Gives gifts, Glorifies Christ, Guides in truth, Helps our weakness, Indwells believers, Inspires prayer, Intercedes, Interprets Scripture, Leads, Liberates, Molds Character, Produces fruit, Raises from the dead, Regenerates, Reveals, Sanctifies, Seals, Sends, Sent, Strengthens, Testifies of Jesus, Victory over flesh, Warns, Worship helper etc.

 

[Der Alte]

The definition that you give which describes a person, is written by people who didn't take into account the Biblical text, but is only regarding a human individual. Which according to the two scriptural examples that you give, doesn't fit with that human description.
Since you have pointed out that the thoughts and actions of the Holy Spirit are the thoughts and actions of the Father and Son. Then it's not Biblically possible to single out the Holy Spirit as if He is somehow different from the Father and the Son.
The Bible does not indicate that The Personages of the Trinity have thoughts and actions that are uniquely their own (as if they were individuals separate from each other). But the Bible speaks of the unification of the thoughts and actions of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.. which are uniquely unified as their own, in opposing comparison to every individual human being.
We as individual human beings, we as Christians are to concern ourselves with being unified in our thoughts and our actions, to be with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Please be so kind to read my post #4 above.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Note all the speculation in this post.

You missed my point. It was purposeful at the start to point out that the post I replied to was only speculation. IOW, I replied with speculation.

As to no one in the bible being referred to as a person, it's funny how most of us are clear on things like if they have a name they are a person. You know, dead giveaways like that.

But that brings up a good point...what is the Holy Spirits name?

Very hard to take your argument seriously, but still I ask, do you think it's a person? or am I going to get some weird clear as mud answer, that leaves me no better off for the asking. Sorry nothing personal but that just seems to happen a lot around here.

Just a down to earth response would be helpful.

 

[Jezmeyah]

Please be so kind to read my post #4 above.

I read post #9 which essentially indicates the same as post #4 which I briefly glanced at.

My post did not have any sense of implying otherwise of you than what you have stated in #4 or #9. Be so kind as to realize that.

 

[Der Alte]

You missed my point. It was purposeful at the start to point out that the post I replied to was only speculation. IOW, I replied with speculation.

Okay!

As to no one in the bible being referred to as a person, it's funny how most of us are clear on things like if they have a name they are a person. You know, dead giveaways like that.
But that brings up a good point...what is the Holy Spirits name?

Would you say that the "angel of the LORD" or "the captain of the Lords host" in the OT were distinct persons? They speak, have conversations with people but their names are never given.

Very hard to take your argument seriously, but still I ask, do you think it's a person? or am I going to get some weird clear as mud answer, that leaves me no better off for the asking. Sorry nothing personal but that just seems to happen a lot around here.
Just a down to earth response would be helpful.

I very clearly answered that question at least 3 times in my post #4 above.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Would you say that the "angel of the LORD" or "the captain of the Lords host" in the OT were distinct persons? They speak, have conversations with people but their names are never given.

I don't know, I don't see those in this thread. Do you have scripture that mentions them. It's just that I can't answer unless I've looked into what that is exactly.

I very clearly answered that question at least 3 times in my post #4 above.

Not exactly a yes or no but it was down to earth..I'll give you that.

 

[Der Alte]

I don't know, I don't see those in this thread. Do you have scripture that mentions them. It's just that I can't answer unless I've looked into what that is exactly.

Strange that you are not familiar with these terms. "The angel of the Lord" occurs 52 times in the OT. First occurrence,

Genesis 16:7 And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.​

"The captain of the host of the Lord" occurs two times.

Joshua 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
Joshua 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so. ​

Not exactly a yes or no but it was down to earth..I'll give you that.

Was my statement "the Holy Spirit is a person," repeated at least three times, not clear?

 

[tulipbee]

A person is a distinct individual having separate thoughts and actions that are uniquely his own.

The thoughts and actions of the Holy Spirit are not separate or uniquely His own, but are the thoughts and actions of the Father and Son.

“We know that we live in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.” -- (1 John 4:13).
“For through Him [the Son] we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.” -- (Ephesians 2:18)

The thoughts and actions of the Holy Spirit in us are the thoughts and actions of the Father and Son in us.

How, then, is the Holy Spirit a third individual person if His thoughts and actions are not uniquely His own?

Holy spirit is a spirit. Spirits are formless. Contains no matter. If it's formless then it must be timeless. Formless don't get point A to point B. There nothing to separate in God's dimension. The three godheads are one.

You're really screwed trying to divide them instead of Believing what the Bible said about them. Just believe in God words anyway. Seeking excuses is from the dark

 

[Uber Genius]

A person is a distinct individual having separate thoughts and actions that are uniquely his own.

This definition works.

Your proof texts don't engage this point.

Have you ever been in agreement with someone? So when you were, did you stop being a person?

funny how most of us are clear on things like if they have a name they are a person. You know, dead giveaways like that.

Read quote #4 to see a list of adjectives modifying a person.

But that brings up a good point...what is the Holy Spirits name?

YHWY.

 

[Uber Genius]

Holy spirit is a spirit. Spirits are formless. Contains no matter. If it's formless then it must be timeless. Formless don't get point A to point B. There nothing to separate in God's dimension. The three godheads are one.

I'm confused here...

Are we supposed to study to understand the scriptures, or ...

Recognize that the scriptures represent incoherent concepts like married bachelors, or square circles, or impersonal persons? And then jettison our God-given rationality in favor of irrational beliefs?

What other irrational beliefs, if any, should I hold? Jesus was raised from the dead? That his death was applied to my sin, and atoned for by Jesus?

It seems this slope is rather slippery.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Yet the comforter could easily mean force in spite of your claim. Point being, your claim is far from valid.

I could easily say, if Jesus wanted to send us a person, he would have said person instead of comforter, he did not.

No reason to believe this is a person, and IMO it has and always will be the Spirit of God, as in Gods thoughts, his mind, among other things.

"Holy Spirit" see the connection?

It's like the spirit of Satan, same thing, but in reverse, and it is not a person, it is the thoughts/ways of Satan.

As to those other things I mentioned, like healing, raising the dead, I at least consider he took that out for the most part because of what man did with it. Like speaking in tongues, people used it all for their own recognition. If that or any of these other gifts are still out there they are few and far in between at least the real stuff is, the fakes still abound.

The reason Jesus says "another comforter" is that He is making a distinction with Himself. Jesus has been their comforter, but He is going to be leaving them later when He ascends after His resurrection. He is telling them that they won't be alone, but that He and the Father will send them another comforter. One who will be present with them, comforting them.

That One is not the Father, neither is that One the Son. Instead this One is spoken of as the Holy Spirit, God's Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, etc. This One is distinct from both the Father and the Son, and yet this One is not some impersonal thing, but is One, a Someone, a Someone that will bring comfort to the followers of Jesus even after He is gone from their midst.

So, no, I don't see how a "force" can fit the description of another comforter.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Der Alte]

Holy spirit is a spirit. Spirits are formless. Contains no matter. If it's formless then it must be timeless. Formless don't get point A to point B. There nothing to separate in God's dimension. The three godheads are one.
You're really screwed trying to divide them instead of Believing what the Bible said about them. Just believe in God words anyway. Seeking excuses is from the dark

In my post #4 above I show from scripture that the Holy Spirit has at least 72 personal characteristics. He is sent, sends, speaks, can be quenched, Guides,Helps, Indwells, Inspires, Intercedes, Interprets, Leads and 61 other personal characteristics.