Is the GREAT CITY in Revelation symbolizing the LAKE OF FIRE?

[Solomon Smith]

I understand that Rome has seven hills as a matter of fact many cities have seven hills surrounding them. I in this case think these particular seven hills are in Jerusalem.
Blessings

You can believe whatever you want but most conservative commentators agree that the Great City is Rome.

All you have to do is google it and it’s all over the internet.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You can believe whatever you want but most conservative commentators agree that the Great City is Rome.

All you have to do is google it and it’s all over the internet.

Perhaps it is because the denarius is shown in Revelation?
This appears to be signifying the Roman army against Jerusalem 70ad and why John is told to specifically mention it in conjunction with the Great City/Harlot. ...

Revelation 6:6
And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "choinex of grain/wheat a denarius and three choinex of barleys a denarius,
and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring".

I hear the SDAs believe Rome[Vatican City] and the Pope are in Revelation:
ARE YOU READY FOR THE MARK OF THE BEAST?

You two SDA's don't actually think the Pope is the beast of Revelation, do you?

I know that SDA's think that worship on Sunday is the Mark of the Beast, and it was taken from paganism, but this is simply historically inaccurate.

Does the SDA still teach that the US government is the False Prophet with its nasty old Sunday blue laws?

Now moving forward with the LoF.................


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[Maria Billingsley]

You can believe whatever you want but most conservative commentators agree that the Great City is Rome.

All you have to do is google it and it’s all over the internet.

I am not a futurist so I see Revelation as predominately speaking of 70AD. If you look at it through this lens, then all of the symbolism makes sense, at least to me it does.
Blessings

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Next up, we look at the word "fire" #G4442.
I would first like to post the different derivatives of it.
It is shown as a primary root word that other words are formed from:
4442. pur poor a primary word;
"fire" (literally or figuratively, specially, lightning):--fiery, fire.
Strong's Number G4442 πῦρ (pyr),occurs 74 times in 73 verses
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I am not a futurist so I see Revelation as predominately speaking of 70AD. If you look at it through this lens, then all of the symbolism makes sense, at least to me it does.
Blessings

I would think even it isn't 70ad, one would be hard pressed to prove Jerusalem along with it's Temple and priesthood, are not what is being symbolized in Revelation, along with the fulfillment of a plethora of both OT and NT prophecies.

Since Revelation has a vast amount of OT references, I thought I would also include the Hebrew word for "fire"

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

H784
784 'esh aysh a primitive word;
fire (literally or figuratively):-- burning, fiery, fire, flaming, hot.
H784 occurs 380 times in 348 verses

The first time it is used is the event of Yahweh making a Covenant with Abraham:

Genesis 15:
9 ........and separateth them in the midst, but the bird he hath not divided;
17 And it cometh to pass -- the sun hath gone in, and thick darkness hath been -- and behold! a furnace of smoke, and a lamp/torch of fire, which hath passed over between those pieces [almost similar to "flaming tongues? at Pentecost in Acts 2:1]

Those 3 words are used together in 1 other verse. The OC Law of Moses and Mt Sinai:

Exodus 19:18 Now Mount Sinai was completely in smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire. Its smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mountain[fn] quaked greatly.

Furnace and fire is also used in the prophecy of Ezekiel 22, concerning the future coming of the Roman army upon Jerusalem, at the great gathering of Passover.

Ezekiel 22:19 “Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Because you have all become dross, therefore behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem.
20 ‘As men gather silver, bronze, iron, lead, and tin into the midst of a furnace, to blow fire on it, to melt it; so I will gather you in My wrath and in My fury, and I will leave you there and melt you. [Fury used in Revelation 15:1]

I would think perhaps the way Yahweh would gather the 1st century Jews into Jerusalem would be the feast of the Passover. According to the historian Josephus, that is when the Lord put it into the mind of Titus to siege Jerusalem:
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah! .....The city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers, and foreigners from all parts, so that the whole nation may be considered as having been shut up in one prison, preparatory to the execution of the Divine vengeance....

Revelation 15:1 And I perceived another sign in the heaven, great and marvelous. Seven Messengers having seven stripes/blows, the last, that in them is finished the fury<2372> of the GOD..

Furnace and fire used together in 2 verses of the NT:

Matthew 13: 42 “and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 50 “and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

Acts 2:19 I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.

Just as in the Lake of Fire, fire and brimstone are coming forth from this army out of the Abyss
Interesting to note the "fire and sulphur" coming out of their mouths is also the description of the LoF.

Revelation 9:17
2 and he did open the well/pit of the Abyss,
and there came up smoke out of the well/pit as smoke of a great furnace,
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfurous; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions;
and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone/sulfur.

Fire is also shown coming out of the mouth of the 2 witnesses

Revelation 11:5
And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.

To be continued.......................


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[Solomon Smith]

I am not a futurist so I see Revelation as predominately speaking of 70AD.

In 70AD Rome was the worlds superpower.

Edit: I’m not a futurist either.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

In 70AD Rome was the worlds superpower.

Edit: I’m not a futurist either.

As was the Babylonian empire in the OT, which Yahweh used to spank Jerusalem, much as he used the Roman empire to spank Jerusalem.
Why do you think that City in Revelation is named "mystery Babylon". Could it be because the 1st century Jewish rulers were considered no different than the pagan Romans and gentiles around them...........

Look up where G987 is used in Revelation:

G987 blaspheme (NKJV)

Romans 2:24
As it has been written: "For the name of God is blasphemed among the /NationsGentiles through you."

"King of Babylon"..........
"king of babylon" (NKJV)
===============================
KoB and the Siege of Jerusalem

was a military campaign carried out by Nebuchadnezzar II, king of Babylon in 597 BC. In 605 BC, he defeated Pharaoh Necho at the Battle of Carchemish, and subsequently invaded Judah.
According to the Nebuchadnezzar Chronicle, King Jehoiakim of Judah rebelled against Babylonian rule, but Nebuchadnezzar captured the city and installed Zedekiah as ruler.

Jeremiah 39:1-2 describes Nebuchadnezzar’s final siege of Jerusalem (commemorated to this day in the Fast of the Tenth of Tebet) and breaching of the city defenses on the ninth of Tammuz (commemorated in the Fast of the Seventeenth of Tammuz). Verse 3 then lists the officers who are overseeing the siege with Nebuchadnezzar:

According to Jeremiah 39:3, “all” of the Babylonian officers arrived and sat at the city gate. Sandwiched between the two general notices are words that apparently specify the names of particular officials. Exactly how many officers arrived at Jerusalem’s gate?

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[Solomon Smith]

Why do you think that City in Revelation is named "mystery Babylon".

John used the code name for Rome to disguise his writing and avoid Roman persecution.

 

[iamlamad]

Jesus was crucified in Rome by Romans. Does Jerusalem have seven hills?

If you believe this, you are too far out to converse with.

By the way, the seven moutains are significant nations or empires and they all have kings. Do the 7 hills in Rome have separate kings?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

John used the code name for Rome to disguise his writing and avoid Roman persecution.

That is also the view of most concerning1 Peter 5:13.
Quite a controversial verse, and if I am not mistaken, the NT itself never records Peter being in Rome?

1 Peter 5:13
She who is in Babylon, elect together<4899> with you, greets<782> you; and so does Mark my son.

What year did Peter and Paul write this just before their impending deaths?

2 peter 1:14
Having known that speedily is the putting off of the booth/skhnw-matoV <4638> of me, according as also the Lord of us, Jesus Christ, makes evident to me.
2 Timothy 4:6
For I am already being poured out and the time of the my loosing/analusewV <359> is come.
7 The ideal contest I have contested, the run/race I have finished, the faith I have kept:

Some CF threads concerning Peter and Rome if interested

https://www.google.com/search?q=evi...S60KHeBCBzMQrQIoBDAAegQICRAM&biw=1366&bih=604

Some commentaries on it:

1 Peter 5:13 Commentaries: She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greetings, and so does my son, Mark.

Pulpit Commentary
Verse 13. -
The Church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; literally, the co-elect in Babylon ἡ ἐν Βαβυλῶνι συνεκλεκτή. The word "Church" is given in no manuscripts with the remarkable exception of the Sinaitic; the rest have simply "the co-elect." We ask - What word is to be supplied, "Church" or "sister"? Some think that St, Peter's wife (comp. Matthew 8:14; 1 Corinthians 9:5) is intended, or some other well-known Christian woman (comp. 2 John 1). In favor of this view is the following salutation from Marcus. It is more natural to join together the names of two persons than to couple a Church with an individual. Also it scorns exceedingly improbable that such a word as "Church" should be omitted (a word, we may remark, which occurs nowhere in St. Peter's Epistles), and the ellipse left to be filled up by the readers. On the other hand, it is said to be unlikely that a humble Galilaean woman should be described as "the co-elect in Babylon." This argument would have considerable weight if the apostle were writing from large and well-known Church, like that at Rome; but it is quite possible that "the co-elect" might be the only Christian woman, or the one best known among a very small number in Babylon.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
The church that is at Babylon,.... The Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Arabic versions, supply the word "church", as we do. Some, by "Babylon", understand Rome, which is so called, in a figurative sense, in the book of the Revelations: this is an ancient opinion; so Papias understood it, as (e) Eusebius relates; but that Peter was at Rome, when he wrote this epistle, cannot be proved, nor any reason be given why the proper name of the place should be concealed, and a figurative one expressed. It is best therefore to understand it literally, of Babylon in Assyria, the metropolis of the dispersion of the Jews, and the centre of it, to whom the apostle wrote; and where, as the minister of the circumcision, he may be thought to reside, here being a number of persons converted and formed into a Gospel church state, whereby was fulfilled the prophecy in Psalm 87:4 perhaps this church might consist chiefly of Jews, which might be the reason of the apostle's being here,.................

 

[Revealing Times]

Before anyone thinks this is completely off the wall and way out there, let me first post a few verses where Jesus uses the word "gehenna" and I will use as much scripture as possible to explain the reason for my rather "unique" view of Jerusalem and Lake of Fire.

The Great City is Babylon which stands for Satan's Dark Kingdom of Confusion on earth. In other words its the whole world under Satan's rule. (Rev. 16:19 tells us that God sees the whole world as Babylon, because the Nations that Jesus defeats are seen in that verse as Babylon, whom God gives His great wrath unto, the Nations that gathered unto Armageddon.)

If you read all the specifics of that city and the judgment of it you will have a hard time making your view stick unless you already symbolize everything else in the book. The merchants weep for her destruction for they were made rich through trading with her and no one is able to buy the luxury goods anymore. Her men are great merchants of the earth The whole world committed fornication with her and she exported sorcery, and killed many. There is no economy in the grave and the destruction comes in a single day. How can you destroy the place that is the lake of fire in a day?

The Harlot of Rev. 17 is ALL FALSE RELIGION (Harlotry) and she rides the back of the Government Beast(s) throughout history or Babylon, Governments of this World under Satan.

It's the whole world that is hit by the end time plagues, it's the whole world's economy that is destroyed, not one city or country. She is not destroyed on ONE DAY, that is a Metaphor for a 42 month period of time. The Day of the Lord is God's Wrath and it lasts for 42 months, from the First Seal (Anti-Christ) until the 7th Vial and the Beast is killed (42 Months is his reign). So ONE DAY means the Day of the Lord.

We also have another Metaphor that tells us it is a 42 months period.

Rev. 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in ONE HOUR is thy judgment come.

Rev. 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings ONE HOUR with the beast.

How long does the Beast rule ? ONE HOUR here no doubt means 42 Months !! Babylon or the WHOLE WORLD is Judged over a 42 Month period of God's Wrath.

Babylon is the WHOLE WORLD (Satan's Dark Kingdom being Judged and Destroyed.)

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

The Great City is Babylon which stands for Satan's Dark Kingdom of Confusion on earth. In other words its the whole world under Satan's rule. (Rev. 16:19 tells us that God sees the whole world as Babylon, because the Nations hat Jesus defeats are seen in that verse as Babylon, whom God gives His great wrath unto, the Nations that gathered unto Armageddon.)



The Harlot of Rev. 17 is ALL FALSE RELIGION (Harlotry) and she tides the back of the Government Beast(s) throughout history or Babylon, Governments of this World under Satan.

It's the whole world that is hit by the end time plagues, it's the whole world's economy that is destroyed, not one city or country. She is not destroyed on ONE DAY, that is a Metaphor for a 42 month period of time. The Day of the Lord is God's Wrath and it lasts for 42 months, from the First Seal (Anti-Christ) until the 7th Vial and the Beast is killed (42 Months is his reign). So ONE DAY means the Day of the Lord.

We also have another Metaphor that tells us it is a 42 months period.

Rev. 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in ONE HOUR is thy judgment come.

Rev. 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings ONE HOUR with the beast.

How long does the Beast rule ? ONE HOUR here no doubt means 42 Months !! Babylon or the WHOLE WORLD is Judged over a 42 Month period of God's Wrath.

Babylon is the WHOLE WORLD (Satan's Dark Kingdom being Judged and Destroyed.

Hi I like the idea of examining the use the the term one hour and your idea is plausible. But I am not convinced as the merchants weep that no one is left to buy their luxury goods anymore. The rest of the nations committed fornication with her. She exported all these things too. Seems to me in the text it is a centralized place. I agree with most of your post and timeline. I have studied the NWO, illuminati UN and see the goal is 10 regions like the EU united with 10 heads and then one supreme head. There is a lot to glen through and some is ridiculous speculation however some of it is very telling. I try to determine what the scriptures say will happen and imagine how current events will follow the arc of prophetic description. For instance the denarius for a quart of wheat over the whole earth is right now possible the day the dollar collapses. The US cannot fail without taking down all the other fiat money systems at the same time. Venezuela could collapse in an isolated manner but the dollar would effect the entire globe. The seal of the US is on one side New World Order written in Latin with the all seeing eye not set as the capstone on the pyramid. The EU government main building is built like the unfinished tower of Babel. There are hundreds of such things showing what psalm 2 describes as the nations taking counsel together against the Lord and his anointed. Thank you LORD for psalm 2 I long for the day when you laugh them to derision and set your king on your holy hill. You will give him the nations as his inheritance. This kingdom will have no end.

 

[Solomon Smith]

If you believe this, you are too far out to converse with.

You clearly have no clue. Jerusalem was ruled by Rome in Jesus day. It was Rome who put Jesus to death.

 

[Solomon Smith]

That is also the view of most concerning1 Peter 5:13.

Exactly. Peter was using Babylon as a code word for Rome.

 

[iamlamad]

You can believe whatever you want but most conservative commentators agree that the Great City is Rome.

All you have to do is google it and it’s all over the internet.

Most commentators may know Greek and Hebrew, but sometimes are clueless as to the intent of the Author in Revelation. As time has progressed, God has revealed much about the book and a layman may well know more than a commentator of yesterday.

Those that understand Revelation's theme KNOW the book is not about Rome, but about ISRAEL and Jerusalem. Daniel's 70th week takes up 9 chapters - almost half the book! And the 70th week is for Daniel's people, NOT the Gentile church of today.

Do you imagine the man of sin will enter some pagan temple in ROME? No, he is destined to enter a new Jewish temple in Jerusalem. He will come to deceive the Jews FIRST, if that is possible. What did Jesus say? If someone comes in their own name, the Jews will receive him.

 

[iamlamad]

The Great City is Babylon which stands for Satan's Dark Kingdom of Confusion on earth. In other words its the whole world under Satan's rule. (Rev. 16:19 tells us that God sees the whole world as Babylon, because the Nations hat Jesus defeats are seen in that verse as Babylon, whom God gives His great wrath unto, the Nations that gathered unto Armageddon.)



The Harlot of Rev. 17 is ALL FALSE RELIGION (Harlotry) and she tides the back of the Government Beast(s) throughout history or Babylon, Governments of this World under Satan.

It's the whole world that is hit by the end time plagues, it's the whole world's economy that is destroyed, not one city or country. She is not destroyed on ONE DAY, that is a Metaphor for a 42 month period of time. The Day of the Lord is God's Wrath and it lasts for 42 months, from the First Seal (Anti-Christ) until the 7th Vial and the Beast is killed (42 Months is his reign). So ONE DAY means the Day of the Lord.

We also have another Metaphor that tells us it is a 42 months period.

Rev. 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in ONE HOUR is thy judgment come.

Rev. 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings ONE HOUR with the beast.

How long does the Beast rule ? ONE HOUR here no doubt means 42 Months !! Babylon or the WHOLE WORLD is Judged over a 42 Month period of God's Wrath.

Babylon is the WHOLE WORLD (Satan's Dark Kingdom being Judged and Destroyed.

I disagree. ALL false religions will believe the Beast and follow after him. It is written. the deception during the last half of the week will be so intense it would deceive the elect - if that were possible. As its, it deceives everyone else. That would include Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and those of every other false religion. And this great deception will be coming from Jerusalem. Therefore, "that great city" is Jerusalem.

 

[Solomon Smith]

Most commentators may know Greek and Hebrew, but sometimes are clueless as to the intent of the Author in Revelation. As time has progressed, God has revealed much about the book and a layman may well know more than a commentator of yesterday.

Those that understand Revelation's theme KNOW the book is not about Rome, but about ISRAEL and Jerusalem. Daniel's 70th week takes up 9 chapters - almost half the book! And the 70th week is for Daniel's people, NOT the Gentile church of today.

Do you imagine the man of sin will enter some pagan temple in ROME? No, he is destined to enter a new Jewish temple in Jerusalem. He will come to deceive the Jews FIRST, if that is possible. What did Jesus say? If someone comes in their own name, the Jews will receive him.

No, I don’t agree. I believe that the man of sin is the Papacy. That is the position held by the majority of the reformers.

 

[iamlamad]

No, I don’t agree. I believe that the man of sin is the Papacy. That is the position held by the majority of the reformers.

You are of course free to believe that, but your theory will be proven wrong.

 

[Erik Nelson]

You can believe whatever you want but most conservative commentators agree that the Great City is Rome.

All you have to do is google it and it’s all over the internet.

Revelation 11:8

QED

 

[Erik Nelson]

the judgement of Babylon (1 city) prefigures that of the beast (1 empire) prefigures that of Gog and Magog's sinful earth (1 planet)

Revelation escalates

 

[Solomon Smith]

Revelation 11:8

QED

Honestly there is a debate among commentators as to whether or not Revelation 11:8 is speaking of the same city that is addressed later in the Book.

However, when Jesus was crucified Jerusalem was a part of Rome and under Roman rule. So it can be said that Jesus was crucified in Rome.