Is the gospel more than 1 Corinthians 15:1-4?

[GDL]

It's kind of tough to lay this out in this format as it's a complex structure. I'm using the NKJ translation and changing and adding a few things to be more literal and clarify what's in the Greek:

Philippians 1:27-30:

1:27 Only (Apostolic command) let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear the things concerning you:

• that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel; 1:28 and not in any way terrified by your adversaries,

• which is:
  • to them a sign of destruction, but to you [a sign] of salvation,
  • and that [thing is] from God.

• 1:29 (Explanation) For the on behalf of Christ thing = not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake - was graciously given to you

Some points:

1. Paul - Christ's Apostle - commands the Philippian Christians to conduct themselves in a manner worthy of Jesus Christ. The word "conduct" is based in the concept of citizenry - citizens of Heaven in this case.
2. Paul wants to hear that they are unified in spirit and mind fighting together for the gospel faith & not afraid of their opponents.
3. Their commanded worthy of Christ conduct - their unified in spirit and mind fighting together for the gospel faith & not being afraid of their opponents is a sign to their opponents of their opponents' destruction & a sign to the Philippian Christians of their Salvation.
4. Their commanded worthy of Christ conduct - their unified in spirit and mind fighting together for the gospel faith & not being afraid of their opponents is a sign to their opponents of their opponents' destruction & a sign to the Philippian Christians of their Salvation.
   
5. Their commanded worthy of Christ conduct - their unified in spirit and mind fighting together for the gospel faith & not being afraid of their opponents - a sign to their opponents of their opponents' destruction & a sign to the Philippian Christians of their Salvation - is all from God
6. Their commanded worthy of Christ conduct - their unified in spirit and mind fighting together for the gospel faith & not being afraid of their opponents - a sign to their opponents of their opponents' destruction & a sign to the Philippian Christians of their Salvation - which is all from God - is also something from God on behalf of Christ
7. Their commanded worthy of Christ conduct - their unified in spirit and mind fighting together for the gospel faith & not being afraid of their opponents - a sign to their opponents of their opponents' destruction & a sign to the Philippian Christians of their Salvation = something from God on behalf of Christ = they were given by God not only to believe in Christ, but also to suffer on behalf of Christ.

The question about faith here is not whether it was given by God. It was clearly given by God. The question is whether their faith given to them by God is their initial faith in the Good News of Jesus Christ - the Good News given by God - or their faith to stand in this fight for the gospel faith - or all of their faith from beginning to that present time and through the fight which will prove their gospel faith opponents' destruction and their salvation.

The simple thing to see here is their faith and suffering is a part of God's grace given to them. The privilege of fighting for the gospel faith on behalf of Jesus Christ, and the strength to do this in unified faith with other Christians is graciously given by God. Christ's Apostle Paul commands these Christians to conduct themselves in a manner worthy and on behalf of their Lord and King Jesus Christ and fight this battle for the gospel of Christ faith. Paul goes on in 1:30 to say these are the same battles they saw him fight and that he is still fighting. The decision to obey Christ's Apostle is theirs. The decision to receive faith and suffering given by God is also theirs. Faith is a clearly a gift. What faith?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sorry you answered my post so late at night. I did not expect that. about a couple hours ago, I made changes to my post that you replied to so that it is easier to understand. I hope my revisions will answer your questions. Thank you.

I reread through your post, and it did not change anything. So your updated post didn't answer my questions. I believe your words are still contradicting themselves. My previous post (post #459) points out this contradiction. Hopefully my recent post will be able to show you this. If not, I think it is time to agree to disagree, and move on in love and respect.

Peace be unto you and your family in the Lord.

 

[GDL]

Yes, the Gospel is more than 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

The only Foundation of the Good News of Christ is: Jesus is the Resurrected Christ. Everything else in the Gospel is built upon this Foundation.

If we understand and believe the Foundation - that Jesus is the Resurrected Christ - then we will continually follow Him, as His disciples we will progressively learn His will from Him, and we will do all He commands. This is salvation given to us by the grace of God through faith.

 

[setst777]

It's kind of tough to lay this out in this format as it's a complex structure. I'm using the NKJ translation and changing and adding a few things to be more literal and clarify what's in the Greek:

Philippians 1:27-30:

1:27 Only (Apostolic command) let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear the things concerning you:

• that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel; 1:28 and not in any way terrified by your adversaries,

• which is:
  • to them a sign of destruction, but to you [a sign] of salvation,
  • and that [thing is] from God.

• 1:29 (Explanation) For the on behalf of Christ thing = not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake - was graciously given to you

Some points:

1. Paul - Christ's Apostle - commands the Philippian Christians to conduct themselves in a manner worthy of Jesus Christ. The word "conduct" is based in the concept of citizenry - citizens of Heaven in this case.
2. Paul wants to hear that they are unified in spirit and mind fighting together for the gospel faith & not afraid of their opponents.
3. Their commanded worthy of Christ conduct - their unified in spirit and mind fighting together for the gospel faith & not being afraid of their opponents is a sign to their opponents of their opponents' destruction & a sign to the Philippian Christians of their Salvation.
4. Their commanded worthy of Christ conduct - their unified in spirit and mind fighting together for the gospel faith & not being afraid of their opponents is a sign to their opponents of their opponents' destruction & a sign to the Philippian Christians of their Salvation.
   
5. Their commanded worthy of Christ conduct - their unified in spirit and mind fighting together for the gospel faith & not being afraid of their opponents - a sign to their opponents of their opponents' destruction & a sign to the Philippian Christians of their Salvation - is all from God
6. Their commanded worthy of Christ conduct - their unified in spirit and mind fighting together for the gospel faith & not being afraid of their opponents - a sign to their opponents of their opponents' destruction & a sign to the Philippian Christians of their Salvation - which is all from God - is also something from God on behalf of Christ
7. Their commanded worthy of Christ conduct - their unified in spirit and mind fighting together for the gospel faith & not being afraid of their opponents - a sign to their opponents of their opponents' destruction & a sign to the Philippian Christians of their Salvation = something from God on behalf of Christ = they were given by God not only to believe in Christ, but also to suffer on behalf of Christ.

The question about faith here is not whether it was given by God. It was clearly given by God. The question is whether their faith given to them by God is their initial faith in the Good News of Jesus Christ - the Good News given by God - or their faith to stand in this fight for the gospel faith - or all of their faith from beginning to that present time and through the fight which will prove their gospel faith opponents' destruction and their salvation.

The simple thing to see here is their faith and suffering is a part of God's grace given to them. The privilege of fighting for the gospel faith on behalf of Jesus Christ, and the strength to do this in unified faith with other Christians is graciously given by God. Christ's Apostle Paul commands these Christians to conduct themselves in a manner worthy and on behalf of their Lord and King Jesus Christ and fight this battle for the gospel of Christ faith. Paul goes on in 1:30 to say these are the same battles they saw him fight and that he is still fighting. The decision to obey Christ's Apostle is theirs. The decision to receive faith and suffering given by God is also theirs. Faith is a clearly a gift. What faith?

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I disagree that faith is shown to be a gift, or that faith was even given to them, whether they accepted or not. I have very good reasons for objecting, which I will attempt to briefly show just from Philippians 1:29 itself.

First of all, no where is the word "gift" [doro] used in this Passage, or any insinuation of it in the context.

Secondly, the Greek word "Christou," considering its derivative forms or tenses, most commonly would be translated as "granted" (as in graciously granting, the granting sometimes by request) or "forgiven."

See:
Strong's Greek: 5483. χαρίζομαι (charizomai) -- to show favor, give freely

Secondly, the context does not say that God gave faith and suffering to them on behalf of Christ, rather, the verse actually says that it has been granted to them [as a privilege and honor] on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for Him.

I believe this meaning is shown by context you displayed in your post. For instance:

• The Philippians were experiencing their fill of suffering, likely persecution.
• Paul was concerned about whether they would remain faithful, or be tempted to give up.
• Paul encourages these believers to remain strong.
• Then Paul says that they are being granted as a privilege to not only believe in Christ but even to suffer for Him.

A Christian should be honored to believe and suffer for Christ, and so this honor is granted by God to those who believe.

Like I said earlier, "granted" means freely given, shown favor, or as a privilege. The word does not mean "gift."

The grammar plays a part in discerning what is actually meant.

It has been given/granted (as a privilege or a favor), to you concerning Christ, not only to believe in Christ, but also to suffer on his behalf.

Paul is showing the persecuted Philippians that the privilege is all theirs to be able to believe in Lord Jesus and to suffer for Him.

If Paul wanted to say to the Philippians that God is granting them faith and suffering as a favor, then he could have used the same word (granted) like this:

God gave you your faith and suffering on behalf of Christ.

Paul didn't say that. He instead said that our privilege is to believe and to suffer on behalf of Christ Jesus.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I disagree that faith is shown to be a gift, or that faith was even given to them, whether they accepted or not. I have very good reasons for objecting, which I will attempt to briefly show just from Philippians 1:29 itself.

First of all, no where is the word "gift" [doro] used in this Passage, or any insinuation of it in the context.

Secondly, the Greek word "Christou," considering its derivative forms or tenses, most commonly would be translated as "granted" (as in graciously granting, the granting sometimes by request) or "forgiven."

See:
Strong's Greek: 5483. χαρίζομαι (charizomai) -- to show favor, give freely

Secondly, the context does not say that God gave faith and suffering to them on behalf of Christ, rather, the verse actually says that it has been granted to them [as a privilege and honor] on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for Him.

I believe this meaning is shown by context you displayed in your post. For instance:

• The Philippians were experiencing their fill of suffering, likely persecution.
• Paul was concerned about whether they would remain faithful, or be tempted to give up.
• Paul encourages these believers to remain strong.
• Then Paul says that they are being granted as a privilege to not only believe in Christ but even to suffer for Him.

A Christian should be honored to believe and suffer for Christ, and so this honor is granted by God to those who believe.

Like I said earlier, "granted" means freely given, shown favor, or as a privilege. The word does not mean "gift."

The grammar plays a part in discerning what is actually meant.

It has been given/granted (as a privilege or a favor), to you concerning Christ, not only to believe in Christ, but also to suffer on his behalf.

Paul is showing the persecuted Philippians that the privilege is all theirs to be able to believe in Lord Jesus and to suffer for Him.

If Paul wanted to say to the Philippians that God is granting them faith and suffering as a favor, then he could have used the same word (granted) like this:

God gave you your faith and suffering on behalf of Christ.

Paul didn't say that. He instead said that our privilege is to believe and to suffer on behalf of Christ Jesus.

Philippians 1:29
“For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;”

Yes. I would agree that Philippians 1:29 is not talking about a gift, and it would be more like a “privilege.”

Whenever we deal with those few verses that may sound Calvinistic, we have to look at the whole counsel of God's Word to get a complete picture or proper understanding.

I lean more towards Arminianism.

Here are the Original 5 Articles (or Points) of Traditional Arminianism:

1. Conditional Election.
2. Unlimited Atonement.
3. Total Depravity.
4. Prevenient Grace.
5. Conditional Preservation of the Saints.

Five Articles of Remonstrance - Wikipedia

My five points that I would consider Biblical are the following:

#1. Conditional Election (Based upon God’s Foreknowledge).
#2. Conditional Salvation.
#3. Unrestricted Initial Drawing(s) & Illumination(s) by God For Majority; A.K.A. Free Will Involving One’s Choice Towards the Lord, Grace, or Salvation (Note: Christ draws all men unto Himself, and God is not willing that any should perish.) (Note: All men are given an opportunity or opportunities by God to understand the "Offer of the Love of the Truth" so that they are able to receive it, or reject it of their own free will. - See: 2 Thessalonians 2:10.).
#4. Provisional Majority Atonement (Based upon God’s Foreknowledge).
#5. Partial Depravity.
​

These points are influenced from the 5 points in Arminianism. My 5 points spells the word: CCUPP.

As you are most likely aware, Calvinists believe in:

1. Total Depravity.
2. Unconditional Election.
3. Limited Atonement.
4. Irresistible Grace.
5. Perseverance of the Saints (Similar to OSAS or Once Saved Always Saved).​

This spells TULIP. I believe all five points of TULIP (Calvinism) are unbiblical. So words like “given” or “granted” in Philippians 1:29 suggesting that it means a gift implies some sort of Calvinism (of which we know is simply not true because it would violate basic morality and or the goodness of GOD). God does not force some to be saved and others not to be saved against their own free will choice (i.e. Unconditional Election). Otherwise portions of Scripture like 2 Thessalonians 2:10 and Jonah 3:6-10 would not make any sense (or they could not be read plainly).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, the Gospel is more than 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

The only Foundation of the Good News of Christ is: Jesus is the Resurrected Christ. Everything else in the Gospel is built upon this Foundation.

If we understand and believe the Foundation - that Jesus is the Resurrected Christ - then we will continually follow Him, as His disciples we will progressively learn His will from Him, and we will do all He commands. This is salvation given to us by the grace of God through faith.

Understanding the foundation is important. I believe that when we truly know the depths of God's love by the grace given to us by Jesus Christ, we will be moved more in following Him wholeheartedly in our actions. Meaning, God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. God is love. Jesus suffered greatly on our behalf on account of our sins. If we truly think about all of what Jesus went through to suffer for us and how He cleansed us from our old life of sin and given us a new life in Him, we will be moved in a way by His love that will impact us greatly. For when we think about the depths of Christ's love for us, it will truly help us to love Him deeper and all others (Including our enemies).

When we think about the pains our Savior went through for us, it can only help us to be moved by His love. For the woman who could not stop kissing Jesus' feet because she was forgiven much. God's love was great towards her. This is why she loved so much.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, the Gospel is more than 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

The only Foundation of the Good News of Christ is: Jesus is the Resurrected Christ. Everything else in the Gospel is built upon this Foundation.

If we understand and believe the Foundation - that Jesus is the Resurrected Christ - then we will continually follow Him, as His disciples we will progressively learn His will from Him, and we will do all He commands. This is salvation given to us by the grace of God through faith.

I lean more towards the belief that the gospel is nothing more than 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, but I do hold to the possibility that it could include in a literal sense the words mentioned in Matthew 24:13-14, and Revelation 14:6-7. While this literal addition does not make any sense to me, I do hold it as a possibility. While I do acknowledge possibilities, the gospel or good news shines best as being only 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Why? Because it shows of how we are initially saved by God's grace by our believing that Christ died for our sins, He was buried and risen the third day. This is God's grace showing favor towards us when we first come to the Lord. This is the good news we preach. If the good news did not include this gospel of grace, and it was all about holiness alone (with no grace), then it is no longer good news because holy action (with no grace) cannot cancel out our sin debt. Only the grace of God can do that. So this is why I lean more towards the possibility that Matthew 24:13-14, and Revelation 14:6-7 are talking about the AFTER effects of believing the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, or trusting in Jesus as our Savior from sin (with it leading to our being broken before Him in seeking forgiveness with Him).

As for Jesus as our future reigning king being the good news:

Well, again, I have yet to find this information tied directly to the words gospel or good news. While it is good news that Christ will one day reign physically upon the Earth, it is not really good news NOW for those who are sinners who are in need of a Savior. That information alone does not really help them. What they need to know is that they are a sinner who is deserving of punishment by God in the Lake of Fire, and yet God is not willing that any should perish and so He sent His Son for us to believe in what He did for us in that He died for our sins, He was buried, and risen the third day (conquering the penalty of sin, which is death). We can now be forgiven by His redemption that He accomplished for us. That is the love of God. Jesus loved us so much that He suffered greatly so we would not have to perish. All we have to do is believe to begin the journey with the Lord. It begins with His grace involving our believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

In other words, a gospel or good news has to work in a practical sense. How does the good news really help you and or others?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

When I first accepted Jesus as my Savior, I had a passionate fire for Him in wanting to serve and do the things of God in a great way. I was extreme. Why? Because I knew of my past life of sin was forgiven. My sinful life was more recent in my mind then and God forgave me of all of that. It moved me greatly that God would be able to forgive me so greatly and it moved me in a great way.

2 Peter 1:9
“But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.”

So we must always remember the goodness of God towards our whole life. We must really think back about how God's grace and forgiveness has cleansed the horrible things we did. Sometimes we tend to think of ourselves as the heroes of our own story or narrative (even before we came to Christ). But we need to think that we were condemned in our old life. We were once on the road to hell before. We must fully realize this again in our lives if we have forgotten this.

 

[setst777]

Philippians 1:29
“For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;”

Yes. I would agree that Philippians 1:29 is not talking about a gift, and it would be more like a “privilege.”

Whenever we deal with those few verses that may sound Calvinistic, we have to look at the whole counsel of God's Word to get a complete picture or proper understanding.

I lean more towards Arminianism.

Here are the Original 5 Articles (or Points) of Traditional Arminianism:

1. Conditional Election.
2. Unlimited Atonement.
3. Total Depravity.
4. Prevenient Grace.
5. Conditional Preservation of the Saints.

Five Articles of Remonstrance - Wikipedia

My five points that I would consider Biblical are the following:

#1. Conditional Election (Based upon God’s Foreknowledge).
#2. Conditional Salvation.
#3. Unrestricted Initial Drawing(s) & Illumination(s) by God For Majority; A.K.A. Free Will Involving One’s Choice Towards the Lord, Grace, or Salvation (Note: Christ draws all men unto Himself, and God is not willing that any should perish.) (Note: All men are given an opportunity or opportunities by God to understand the "Offer of the Love of the Truth" so that they are able to receive it, or reject it of their own free will. - See: 2 Thessalonians 2:10.).
#4. Provisional Majority Atonement (Based upon God’s Foreknowledge).
#5. Partial Depravity.
​

These points are influenced from the 5 points in Arminianism. My 5 points spells the word: CCUPP.

As you are most likely aware, Calvinists believe in:

1. Total Depravity.
2. Unconditional Election.
3. Limited Atonement.
4. Irresistible Grace.
5. Perseverance of the Saints (Similar to OSAS or Once Saved Always Saved).​

This spells TULIP. I believe all five points of TULIP (Calvinism) are unbiblical. So words like “given” or “granted” in Philippians 1:29 suggesting that it means a gift implies some sort of Calvinism (of which we know is simply not true because it would violate basic morality and or the goodness of GOD). God does not force some to be saved and others not to be saved against their own free will choice (i.e. Unconditional Election). Otherwise portions of Scripture like 2 Thessalonians 2:10 and Jonah 3:6-10 would not make any sense (or they could not be read plainly).

Greetings.

You CCUPP seems quite Arminian to me. I would agree.

 

[GDL]

First of all, no where is the word "gift" [doro] used in this Passage, or any insinuation of it in the context.

Correct, "gift" is not in the passage. Insinuation is another matter.

Secondly, the Greek word "Christou," considering its derivative forms or tenses, most commonly would be translated as "granted" (as in graciously granting, the granting sometimes by request) or "forgiven."

"Christou" is the word we translate as "Christ" (not "granted"), so the rest of this statement is misplaced.

See:
Strong's Greek: 5483. χαρίζομαι (charizomai) -- to show favor, give freely

Yes, this is the verb in Philippians 1:29 that is under discussion. I'll highlight it in the verse using the translation you've used frequently to post Scripture:

WEB Philippians 1:29 For to you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

In the Strong's Dictionary link you've posted, we can note that there are 2 definitions for this verb. One of these definitions is "give freely."

In the WEB English translation, it is translated "given."

If we go to this linked information, scroll down to the "NAS Exhaustive Concordance" heading and under it see "word origin" and the linked word "charis," we can see that the base of this word is the word we translate as "grace."

So, yes, "give freely" in the definition, "given" in the translation, "grace" at the root of the verb, are some of the reasons we're discussing whether or not in Philippians 1:29 faith is being discussed as a gift. It is also the reason this has been discussed and debated for quite some time.

Secondly, the context does not say that God gave faith and suffering to them on behalf of Christ, rather, the verse actually says that it has been granted to them [as a privilege and honor] on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for Him.

The verse does say both to believe and to suffer has been given to them. The translation using "it" as the subject does not accurately reflect the Greek grammar. The subject of the verb charizomai (freely given) - what was freely given to these Philippian Christians per the Text - very literally is:

• The [thing] on behalf of Christ = the not only to believe into Him, but also the to suffer on behalf of Him

This ties back even further, as I previously explained in more detail.

The wording "as a privilege and honor" is indeed an interpretative insertion as you have shown it. It is not stated in the verse.

Like I said earlier, "granted" means freely given, shown favor, or as a privilege. The word does not mean "gift."

So, there seems to be no difference between "granted" and "given."

The concept of a gift is being derived from the definition of the verb as shown in the supplied link to the Strong's Dictionary information, which also shows us that [God's] grace is conceptually connected.

To believe in Jesus Christ is stated in Philippians 1:29 as having been graciously given ["from God"].

So, the discussion is:

• In context, is this:
  • Faith to initially believe in Jesus Christ?
  • Faith to continue to believe in Jesus Christ through this suffering being given to these Christians [from God]?
  • Both of these?
• Since this faith is being freely/graciously given to them, no matter how we view it in context, can we learn something in general from this verse about faith in Jesus Christ being a gift from God?
  • As an example: Is God in this Scripture giving these Christians an opportunity to choose to suffer on behalf of Jesus Christ? If God is doing so, then in this sense, is God giving them the suffering?
  • Similarly, for example: If faith comes from what is heard, namely what is heard through the word of God, then in a sense, has God given us faith by giving us what to believe?

We may have been taught certain systems of theology, which have indeed thought extensively through the implications of certain interpretations of issues such as this one. Many of us have taken sides in these systems. Some of us have done so, but don't know it, because we've been taught under one system and we're not aware of all the sides and their various and conflicting interpretations. There's a reason all of these systems of interpretation are still being debated at many levels.

The task is just to let the Text say what it truly says per grammar, close context, and in the context of the entire Text - and to understand God accurately per the way He speaks in His Word.

 

[setst777]

Correct, "gift" is not in the passage. Insinuation is another matter.

"Christou" is the word we translate as "Christ" (not "granted"), so the rest of this statement is misplaced.

Yes, this is the verb in Philippians 1:29 that is under discussion. I'll highlight it in the verse using the translation you've used frequently to post Scripture:

WEB Philippians 1:29 For to you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

In the Strong's Dictionary link you've posted, we can note that there are 2 definitions for this verb. One of these definitions is "give freely."

In the WEB English translation, it is translated "given."

If we go to this linked information, scroll down to the "NAS Exhaustive Concordance" heading and under it see "word origin" and the linked word "charis," we can see that the base of this word is the word we translate as "grace."

So, yes, "give freely" in the definition, "given" in the translation, "grace" at the root of the verb, are some of the reasons we're discussing whether or not in Philippians 1:29 faith is being discussed as a gift. It is also the reason this has been discussed and debated for quite some time.

The verse does say both to believe and to suffer has been given to them. The translation using "it" as the subject does not accurately reflect the Greek grammar. The subject of the verb charizomai (freely given) - what was freely given to these Philippian Christians per the Text - very literally is:

• The [thing] on behalf of Christ = the not only to believe into Him, but also the to suffer on behalf of Him

This ties back even further, as I previously explained in more detail.

The wording "as a privilege and honor" is indeed an interpretative insertion as you have shown it. It is not stated in the verse.

So, there seems to be no difference between "granted" and "given."

The concept of a gift is being derived from the definition of the verb as shown in the supplied link to the Strong's Dictionary information, which also shows us that [God's] grace is conceptually connected.

To believe in Jesus Christ is stated in Philippians 1:29 as having been graciously given ["from God"].

So, the discussion is:

• In context, is this:
  • Faith to initially believe in Jesus Christ?
  • Faith to continue to believe in Jesus Christ through this suffering being given to these Christians [from God]?
  • Both of these?
• Since this faith is being freely/graciously given to them, no matter how we view it in context, can we learn something in general from this verse about faith in Jesus Christ being a gift from God?
  • As an example: Is God in this Scripture giving these Christians an opportunity to choose to suffer on behalf of Jesus Christ? If God is doing so, then in this sense, is God giving them the suffering?
  • If faith comes from what is heard, namely what is heard through the word of God, then in a sense, has God given us faith by giving us what to believe?

We may have been taught certain systems of theology, which have indeed thought extensively through the implications of certain interpretations of issues such as this one. Many of us have taken sides in these systems. Some of us have done so, but don't know it, because we've been taught under one system and we're not aware of all the sides and their various and conflicting interpretations. There's a reason all of these systems of interpretation are still being debated at many levels.

The task is just to let the Text say what it truly says per grammar, close context, and in the context of the entire Text - and to understand God accurately per the way He speaks in His Word.

There is a significant difference in saying:

"God is giving you faith and suffering"

To:

"It has been granted to you to believe and to suffer for Christ."

How does that encourage the Philippians to know that God is giving them their suffering? It doesn't encourage at all.

If you cannot see the difference, then that is on you.

The encouragement of Paul to the persecuted Philippians is that it has been granted to them as a favor, not only that they believe in him but also to suffer for him.

No gift is mentioned in the Passage.

So, I will disagree with you, because what you are proposing is not the intent of the context. The word for given/grant can have different shades of meaning depending on the context.

The context decides its use. And the context shows Paul attempting to encourage the persecuted Philippians, and not to demoralize them into thinking God is giving them their suffering.

Scripture never relates to us that God gives faithful Christians suffering. So too, God does not give your faith. The Scriptures teach throughout that we are commanded to put our faith in Lord Jesus. You got it all backwards from the way Scripture teaches.

So believe as you will. You make the same mistake with Ephesians 2:8-9. But in this case you don't seem to understand the difference between a subject from it modifiers. This is causing you to misunderstand the whole meaning.

Faith onto salvation is never a gift throughout the Scriptures. Rather we receive the gracious gift of salvation and justification through faith. All God's gracious promises to us are ours by faith in Lord Jesus.

 

[GDL]

There is a significant difference in saying:

"God is giving you faith and suffering"

To:

"It has been granted to you to believe and to suffer for Christ."

How does that encourage the Philippians to know that God is giving them their suffering? It doesn't encourage at all.

If you cannot see the difference, then that is on you.

How does what encourage the Philippians - "God is giving you faith and suffering" or "It has been granted to you to believe and to suffer for Christ" or both or???

Sure, I can see how God gives faith to you and God grants/give to you to believe might be taken differently. But I can also see that they can mean the same thing.

Strong's Greek: 5483. χαρίζομαι (charizomai) -- to show favor, give freely

Using your Strong's link to look at the range of meaning of charizomai and apply it to Philippians 1:29:

• To believe in Christ and to suffer on behalf of Christ was [being] shown favor to you from God
  
• To believe in Christ and to suffer on behalf of Christ was freely given to you from God

One of these seems the clear and likely meaning. Favor (grace) is built into the word "freely given" since charizomai is derived from charis.

Like I said earlier, "granted" means freely given, shown favor, or as a privilege. The word does not mean "gift."

I don't recall your having previously said what "grant" means or what you've referenced to define it. I'm happy to look at whatever reference you provide. Until you provide the reference, I can't accept what you say it means above. I am OK with "give" being within its range of meaning. Otherwise, I can't tell if you're trying to tell me what you think "grant" means, or what you think "charizomai" means.

From a quick search, here are Paul's writings in which "charizomai" is used. It can also mean to forgive, so I won't highlight those. I'll use the WEB translation since I've noticed you use it:

WEB Rom. 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

WEB 1 Cor. 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we may know the things that are freely given to us by God.

WEB 2 Cor. 2:7 So that on the other hand, ye {ought} rather to forgive {him}, and comfort {him}, lest perhaps such one should be swallowed up with excessive sorrow.

WEB 2 Cor. 2:10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I {forgive} also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave {it}, for your sakes {I forgave it}, in the person of Christ;

WEB 2 Cor. 12:13 For what is that in which ye were inferior to other churches, except that I myself was not burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong.

WEB Gal. 3:18 For if the inheritance {is} by the law, {it is} no more by promise: but God gave {it} to Abraham by promise.

WEB Eph. 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tender-hearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

WEB Phil. 1:29 For to you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

WEB Phil. 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

WEB Col. 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he made alive together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

WEB Col. 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man hath a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also {do} ye.

WEB Phlm. 1:22 But at the same time prepare me also a lodging; for I trust that through your prayers I shall be given to you.
​

I'm concerned you are eisegeting your view into Philippians 1:29. Per this translation, Paul seems clearly to use charizomai to mean "give" or "freely give." The Greek Lexicons back up this meaning. The Strong's Dictionary you supplied does as well.

So far, it's you who seems to be going against and adding things to the wording.

 

[setst777]

How does what encourage the Philippians - "God is giving you faith and suffering" or "It has been granted to you to believe and to suffer for Christ" or both or???

I need not explain what is obvious.

Sure, I can see how God gives faith to you and God grants/give to you to believe might be taken differently. But I can also see that they can mean the same thing.

No, it does not mean the same thing. The difference is significant, and is obvious.

Using your Strong's link to look at the range of meaning of charizomai and apply it to Philippians 1:29:

• To believe in Christ and to suffer on behalf of Christ was [being] shown favor to you from God
  
• To believe in Christ and to suffer on behalf of Christ was freely given to you from God

One of these seems the clear and likely meaning. Favor (grace) is built into the word "freely given" since charizomai is derived from charis.

Both are correct.

God does not give you faith and suffering; rather, we are granted (as a favor or privilege) to believe and suffer for Christ Jesus.

I don't recall your having previously said what "grant" means or what you've referenced to define it. I'm happy to look at whatever reference you provide. Until you provide the reference, I can't accept what you say it means above. I am OK with "give" being within its range of meaning. Otherwise, I can't tell if you're trying to tell me what you think "grant" means, or what you think "charizomai" means.

I provided you the link for reason, so you could see how the word is used.

From a quick search, here are Paul's writings in which "charizomai" is used. It can also mean to forgive, so I won't highlight those. I'll use the WEB translation since I've noticed you use it:

WEB Rom. 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

WEB 1 Cor. 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we may know the things that are freely given to us by God.

WEB 2 Cor. 2:7 So that on the other hand, ye {ought} rather to forgive {him}, and comfort {him}, lest perhaps such one should be swallowed up with excessive sorrow.

WEB 2 Cor. 2:10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I {forgive} also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave {it}, for your sakes {I forgave it}, in the person of Christ;

WEB 2 Cor. 12:13 For what is that in which ye were inferior to other churches, except that I myself was not burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong.

WEB Gal. 3:18 For if the inheritance {is} by the law, {it is} no more by promise: but God gave {it} to Abraham by promise.

WEB Eph. 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tender-hearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

WEB Phil. 1:29 For to you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

WEB Phil. 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

WEB Col. 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he made alive together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

WEB Col. 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man hath a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also {do} ye.

WEB Phlm. 1:22 But at the same time prepare me also a lodging; for I trust that through your prayers I shall be given to you.
​

I'm concerned you are eisegeting your view into Philippians 1:29. Per this translation, Paul seems clearly to use charizomai to mean "give" or "freely give." The Greek Lexicons back up this meaning. The Strong's Dictionary you supplied does as well.

So far, it's you who seems to be going against and adding things to the wording.

You did not quote all the references for Charizomai. But in the references you gave, there are different shades of meaning according to the context and the tense used.

The Scriptures never teach us that God gives us suffering, or that God gives us faith onto salvation. Rather God grants to us to believe and to suffer for him as a privilege. And this is a privilege to believe and suffer for Christ Jesus.

Acts 5:41 (NIV) The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name.

God permits, allows, or grants suffering to test and refine our faith, but God does not give faithful Christians suffering. No such Scripture in the entire Bible.

Romans 5:1-2 (NIV) Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

 

[GDL]

Paul’s Gospel Proclamation per Acts 13:

1. 23 Jesus is the God promised Savior and descendant of King David (so Jesus us the Eternal King per the Davidic Covenant – and thus Messiah)

2. 24-25 John was the herald of the coming of the King

3. 26 This is the message of Salvation

4. 27 Those in Jerusalem did not know Him (Jesus the Savior – the Eternal Davidic King – the Messiah whose coming was heralded by the Prophet John) and fulfilled the Prophets by:

a. Condemning Messiah and 28 asking for Him to be put to death​

5. 29 They took Messiah down from a tree and laid Him in a tomb

6. 30 God resurrected Messiah

7. 31 Messiah was seen by many witnesses

8. 32-33 Paul and others declare the Good News – the promise God made to the Fathers that was fulfilled for Paul and others:

a. God resurrected Jesus (Savior, Eternal Davidic King, Messiah) as stated in Psalm 2 (re: YHWH’s Annointed/Messiah/Christ)​

b. 34-35 God resurrecting Jesus who would not return into decaying and would have the blessings of King David is per Isaiah 55:3 and Psalm 16:10​

1. 36-37 These Scriptures did not speak of King David himself​

9. 38 The forgiveness of sins is proclaimed through this Man (Jesus the savior, the Eternal Davidic King, YHWH’s Messiah)

10. 39 In this Man (Jesus the Savior, the Eternal Davidic King, YHWH’s Messiah) all who believe in Him are declared righteous from all the things which they were not able to be declared righteous by the Law of Moses

11. Summary:

a. The Foundation

• Jesus is the Savior
• Jesus is the Eternal Davidic King
• Jesus is the Messiah

b. Death, Burial and Resurrection

• Jesus was condemned, put to death, buried and resurrected & many witnesses saw Him

• The Resurrection proves and established that Jesus is the Eternal Davidic King and YHWH’s Messiah

c. Forgiveness & Righteousness

• The forgiveness of sins and declaration of Righteousness is through Jesus the resurrected Savior, Eternal King, Messiah/Christ of YHWH for all who believe in Him

Same foundational message being “pressed in spirit” with Paul:

KJV Acts 18:5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ. (very emphatic language in Greek).

WEB Acts 18:5 And when Silas and Timothy had come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in spirit, and testified to the Jews, {that} Jesus {was} Christ.

Paul stressing the Foundation:

1 Corinthians 13:10-11 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (Jesus Christ is not His name. It’s short for Jesus is Christ, Jesus the Christ)

God commands belief in the name of His Son:

KJV 1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Belief that Jesus is the Son of God:

KJV 1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

KJV 1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

KJV 1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

The Foundation of the Gospel message is very clear. 1 Corinthians 15 was written by Paul to address the vital importance of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ and was a reminder of part of his more complete proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The Apostle John provides God’s command to believe in the name of God’s Son – Jesus the Christ – and teaches that this belief results in rebirth, the ability to conquer the world, and to know we have eternal life.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is not the Gospel. It’s not the Foundation of the Gospel. It’s a part of the Gospel and the resurrection of Jesus Christ is vital to the Gospel, which is why Paul goes back and reminds those he had previously evangelized and taught. If anything, it's part of the Foundation:

Jesus is the Resurrected Savior, Eternal King, Messiah/Christ.

This foundational truth must responded to, in obedience to God's command, with continuous Biblical Faith, which is virtually synonymous with continual obedience to God and our Lord King Christ Savior - Jesus.

 

[GDL]

I need not explain what is obvious.

Just recent accomplishments:

No explanation for statements.
Add words into the Text to change what it literally and clearly says
Say Christou means granted and no admission of error
Use self as dictionary
Mislabel parts of grammar
Evade discussion of grammatical constructs while presenting self as being proficient
Wrongly contend a self-presented scholarly article substantiates a self-made interpretation methodology and use personal attacks to evade proving the contention
Claim without substantiation that all NT Scripture of Paul's use of a specific word have not been presented.
Claim without explanation or substantiation that supplied verses from a seemingly favored translation consistently translating a word under discussion are not correct even though they agree with dictionary and lexical data
Authoritatively state that only personal interpretations are correct which seems to sum up all of the above.

I guess these practices must normally work somewhere. Hope not.

 

[setst777]

Just recent accomplishments:

No explanation for statements.
Add words into the Text to change what it literally and clearly says
Say Christou means granted and no admission of error
Use self as dictionary
Mislabel parts of grammar
Evade discussion of grammatical constructs while presenting self as being proficient
Wrongly contend a self-presented scholarly article substantiates a self-made interpretation methodology and use personal attacks to evade proving the contention
Claim without substantiation that all NT Scripture of Paul's use of a specific word have not been presented.
Claim without explanation or substantiation that supplied verses from a seemingly favored translation consistently translating a word under discussion are not correct even though they agree with dictionary and lexical data
Authoritatively state that only personal interpretations are correct which seems to sum up all of the above.

I guess these practices must normally work somewhere. Hope not.

Attack all you want, but the messages are on this board for all to see. All the evidence was provided. You ignored and ridiculed any evidence that did not agree with you, and refused to answer questions. You have no credibility to make accusations.