Is the Empowerment of women a sin?

[bekkilyn]

Hypocrisy? You can't really accuse your political opponents of being hypocrites for turning God's Holy Word into a book of political agendas when your clearly doing the same thing...

So you're claiming that if I'm being hypocritical myself, that somehow justifies their hypocrisy? Hypocrisy is perfectly okay as long as everyone else is doing it?

I'm not quite sure how you know precisely who my political opponents are in any case.

This has been the greatest detriment to Christianity though, it really has. Announcing this political leader after that one to be the latest christ time after time, one political cycle after the other, is what is wrong with Christianity in America today.

No one knows what the true Christ even looks like anymore.

What the greatest detriment to Christianity today is that so few seem to take seriously Jesus' command to love one another as he loves us. If all Christians actually practiced this value in the U.S. considering Christians are still (for now) in the majority at least by name, our government probably would reflect this value instead of the self-serving, materialistic, survival of the fittest philosophy it reflects now.

 

[Hazelelponi]

What is the greatest detriment to Christianity today is that so few seem to take seriously Jesus' command to love one another as he loves us. If all Christians actually practiced this value in the U.S. considering Christians are still (for now) in the majority at least by name, our government probably would reflect this value instead of the self-serving, materialistic, survival of the fittest philosophy it reflects now.

What does the Bible say governments are for?

Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right” (1 Peter 2:13-14).

National governments establish law to keep a peace, punish wrongdoers etc.

They aren't extensions of God's love.. They aren't shining lights of Christ on earth; they don't even need to believe in Christ because those things are the job of the church.. the church in the New Testament isn't Caesar, and Caesar isn't the Church.

Christians love one another, give to one another as generously as we are able... we don't make Caesar do it for us and we don't undermine the security of a nation in the name of love, because love of God is submission to Him.

Israel as a nation state ceased to exit as such in 70AD, it's time to live the way God chose, and He never commanded a kangaroo government.

 

[bekkilyn]

What does the Bible say governments are for?

Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right” (1 Peter 2:13-14).

National governments establish law to keep a peace, punish wrongdoers etc.

They aren't extensions of God's love.. They aren't shining lights of Christ on earth; they don't even need to believe in Christ because those things are the job of the church.. the church in the New Testament isn't Caesar, and Caesar isn't the Church.

Christians love one another, give to one another as generously as we are able... we don't make Caesar do it for us and we don't undermine the security of a nation in the name of love, because love of God is submission to Him.

Israel as a nation state ceased to exit as such in 70AD, it's time to live the way God chose, and He never commanded a kangaroo government.

However, here in the U.S., *we* the people are the government. We don't have a supreme authority to submit to. As citizens, *we* are the ones responsible rather than an emperor or king as in ancient times.

And there's a big problematic dissonance if the majority of citizens claim to be Christian and yet the most prominent values we represent as a people are greed, materialism, and selfishness with over 50% of our population (primarily women and children and other minorities) living in poverty in the wealthiest country in the world.

Yes, we do need more empowerment of women (getting back to the topic) because it at least helps women get out of poverty and better able to fend for themselves in our current environment. Whether or not Christians should do anything to help, it's more than clear that it's not happening on any wide-scale level. Too busy being focused on partisan politics it seems.

 

[Paidiske]

Because we dont believe in socialism?

That's my answer.

But then this topic as a whole has gotten away from anything to do with faith in God..

I'm not sure that making education accessible is always "socialism," (the system we have here in Australia seems to work much better than the American one, on this point, and I'd hardly call us socialist).

But it is absolutely related to faith in God. Part of our mission is to seek to transform unjust structures of society, and lack of access to education is absolutely an unjust structure of society.

What do you mean by 'tertiary'?

Anything after school; whether that be an apprenticeship or an academic degree or whatever else.

 

[teresa]

lack of access to education is absolutely an unjust structure of society.

That's an excellent point. It is unjust.

A very good question to ask is this: who will pay for the empowerment then?

 

[Paidiske]

You can structure things in different ways.

Where I am, the government funds primary and secondary school. (I mean, there are private options, but the state will make sure everyone has access to schooling).

For my university degrees, the way it worked is that I got a loan from the government; but the terms are such that I don't have to repay it when I'm not earning above a certain threshold. So if you're not able to find work, or at home with small children, you don't pay; but when you earn above - I think it's about $50,000 a year - then payments are taken out of your pay with your tax. And if you never earn enough to pay it back, the debt dies with you. (Since my taxable income is below the threshold, and likely to stay there, I will almost certainly never repay that amount in full. I have earned enough to have made some repayments in the past).

The availability of those loans means that nobody misses out on university because they can't afford the fees. And our society feels that the losses made by people who never pay it back are an acceptable government use of our taxes, because an educated population is an investment in our society as a whole.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I'm not sure that making education accessible is always "socialism," (the system we have here in Australia seems to work much better than the American one, on this point, and I'd hardly call us socialist).

But it is absolutely related to faith in God. Part of our mission is to seek to transform unjust structures of society, and lack of access to education is absolutely an unjust structure of society.



Anything after school; whether that be an apprenticeship or an academic degree or whatever else.

While schools are nice, and definitely something we prefer for our children and our society, Paul, Peter, James or John wasn't running around trying to make sure people were literate.

They had a message, one of salvation and that was the message they spread. They weren't social justice warriors making sure people had rights in their societies, they made sure people heard the message of salvation and their eternal souls might be saved..

That was the concern, that was the purpose. Trying to make the Gospel of Salvation into a message of literacy for all is... well quite frankly I'm without words.

 

[Paidiske]

I view the Church's mission through the five-fold Marks of Mission of the global Anglican communion. They are as follows:

1. To proclaim the Good News of the Kingdom.
2. To teach, baptise and nurture new believers.
3. To respond to human need by loving service.
4. To seek to transform unjust structures of society, to challenge violence of every kind and to pursue peace and reconciliation.
5. To strive to safeguard the integrity of creation and sustain and renew the life of the earth.

Each of these is part of the mission of the Church, and to focus on one to the exclusion of the others leaves us functioning poorly.

In particular, the pursuit of justice is related to the Church as sign, instrument and foretaste of the reign of God; we are to see - to the best of our ability - that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And injustice is never God's will.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I view the Church's mission through the five-fold Marks of Mission of the global Anglican communion. They are as follows:

1. To proclaim the Good News of the Kingdom.
2. To teach, baptise and nurture new believers.
3. To respond to human need by loving service.
4. To seek to transform unjust structures of society, to challenge violence of every kind and to pursue peace and reconciliation.
5. To strive to safeguard the integrity of creation and sustain and renew the life of the earth.

Each of these is part of the mission of the Church, and to focus on one to the exclusion of the others leaves us functioning poorly.

In particular, the pursuit of justice is related to the Church as sign, instrument and foretaste of the reign of God; we are to see - to the best of our ability - that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And injustice is never God's will.

I don't know anything about Anglican churches but if you have 1, 2, then 3 and 4 is an automatic with the change in people's hearts. 5? I don't even know what 5 means.. (i likely dont want to know)

It's the heart change that comes with salvation that has power, if people's hearts don't change automatically then they aren't saved...

Make the message of salvation powerful enough that the message itself does the job it was sent to do, don't make it into a message of social justice, that weakens the entire message and destroys salvation.

In the end if the Anglicans go off on side tracks that's their business, but don't try and call it the message of God's church either. It has no biblical basis.

 

[Paidiske]

It can't be social justice on its own, but it can't be the gospel if it doesn't have a dimension of justice.

A quick search shows me 194 mentions of "justice" in the NRSV. Matthew identifies Christ as the one whom Isaiah promised would "proclaim justice to the Gentiles." (Matthew 12:18). The author of Hebrews identifies "administering justice" as one of the works of faith. (Hebrews 11:33). You can't tell me that working for justice has no Biblical basis.

 

[Hazelelponi]

It can't be social justice on its own, but it can't be the gospel if it doesn't have a dimension of justice.

A quick search shows me 194 mentions of "justice" in the NRSV. Matthew identifies Christ as the one whom Isaiah promised would "proclaim justice to the Gentiles." (Matthew 12:18). The author of Hebrews identifies "administering justice" as one of the works of faith. (Hebrews 11:33). You can't tell me that working for justice has no Biblical basis.

Justice and social justice are two different things. And your right i cant tell you the bible is not a book of social justice because you wont hear it. Who defines that justice? Social justice is already defined as an indefinable quantity; its whatever the person speaking about it wants it to be, actual justice is blind. Biblical justice is whatever God says it is. Is it just for babies to die? And yet they do...

With salvation people will act justly toward others. Without salvation if you want justice you'd better be armed and ready for war. The message of the church is salvation.

Romans 8:1-4

 

[Paidiske]

Social justice is about systems and institutions; it's not different from justice but a particular area of it. I wouldn't say it's indefinable, but Christians and secular thinkers are likely to define it slightly differently.

Salvation and justice are inseparable aspects of the reign of God. You can't be committed to the soteria - the salvation and healing - of God's creation without recognising that justice is part of that.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Social justice is about systems and institutions; it's not different from justice but a particular area of it. I wouldn't say it's indefinable, but Christians and secular thinkers are likely to define it slightly differently.

Salvation and justice are inseparable aspects of the reign of God. You can't be committed to the soteria - the salvation and healing - of God's creation without recognising that justice is part of that.

I recognise that justice is part of salvation, if not the entire point of salvation as it is that we are justified before God through Christ.

But is that the justice of man? No.. Christ died that we might live, He took upon Himself what we owed..

Mans justice.. is it just to steal food out of the mouth of one man that another man's child might be educated? That's only justice to the one doing the theiving.. certainly not to the man who now has no food.

At least God allowed that the debt we owed for our sin to be paid by His own Son, and not your sons..

 

[Paidiske]

Mans justice.. is it just to steal food out of the mouth of one man that another man's child might be educated? That's only justice to the one doing the theiving.. certainly not to the man who now has no food.

"I do not mean that there should be relief for others and pressure on you, but it is a question of a fair balance between your present abundance and their need, so that their abundance may be for your need, in order that there may be a fair balance. As it is written,
‘The one who had much did not have too much,
and the one who had little did not have too little.’"

2 Corinthians 8:13 - 15 sums it up nicely, I think. Not relief for some and pressure on others, but a fair balance, so that the basic needs of all are met out of the abundance we share.

But then, I don't buy into the taxes = theft trope. Taxes are the price we pay for living in a society which cares for its vulnerable, and I'd pay them twice over and gladly if only we could do that better. (Sure, our governments do some things with our taxes that I don't like - like make war - but I'm not going to begrudge food, shelter, clothing and education to my neighbour).

 

[Hazelelponi]

"I do not mean that there should be relief for others and pressure on you, but it is a question of a fair balance between your present abundance and their need, so that their abundance may be for your need, in order that there may be a fair balance. As it is written,
‘The one who had much did not have too much,
and the one who had little did not have too little.’"

2 Corinthians 8:13 - 15 sums it up nicely, I think. Not relief for some and pressure on others, but a fair balance, so that the basic needs of all are met out of the abundance we share.

But then, I don't buy into the taxes = theft trope. Taxes are the price we pay for living in a society which cares for its vulnerable, and I'd pay them twice over and gladly if only we could do that better. (Sure, our governments do some things with our taxes that I don't like - like make war - but I'm not going to begrudge food, shelter, clothing and education to my neighbour).

Hi.. we aren't a bunch of Christians living in a community together. You can't pull verses out of the context they were spoken in.

Christians giving to Christians, (giving from their excess) and Christians supporting their own community is a far cry from today.. a far cry.

We are only majority Christian countries because people check the box of the religion of their parents, and it could even be that it was a religion not even their parents practiced.

As far as actual saved Christians - we likely could hardly be called Christian nations these days - we certainly aren't a community of believers supporting other believers in need through our tax dollars.

As far as what the Bible says we pay taxes for? The Bible says taxes are to pay government employees who spend their time enforcing the law ect.. not for the support of the poor. Look it up.

As for your not buying into the fact taxes take from one to give to the other.. it does. I need a biopsy right now, there is a good chance I have cancer. My health is so bad at this point and the pain so severe I can no longer get out of bed so even if it's not cancer I need treatment.

We live paycheck to paycheck. Barely enough to make the bills. We have nothing fancy, 1 car that is 20 years old with no car payment, a cheap inexpensive house that is so run down if the government walked in here they would condemn it - but we can afford it so oh well.

But we make too much money to get help with medical bills, 500 dollars a month too much, so unless someone out of the kindness of their heart agrees to help pay for it (not happening) I will die here like this. But hey, 25% of my husbands paycheck is taken in taxes instead of paying for some medical testing because there are poor people who need help.

Yeah.. modern "Christianity" in action. YEA. Social justice is done.

 

[Paidiske]

The great thing about democracy is that we get to decide what we pay taxes for. So if we decide that we pay taxes to support the needy and vulnerable in our community... that looks pretty Biblical to me.

I'm sorry about your health. But I think your government is failing you by not providing you with health care. In Australia you would have that biopsy, in the public health system, and so you should.

 

[Hazelelponi]

The great thing about democracy is that we get to decide what we pay taxes for. So if we decide that we pay taxes to support the needy and vulnerable in our community... that looks pretty Biblical to me.

I'm sorry about your health. But I think your government is failing you by not providing you with health care. In Australia you would have that biopsy, in the public health system, and so you should.

Democracy is mob rule, it has no concern for the rights of the one..I prefer Christ

 

[Paidiske]

Maybe, but it's what we have, and it looks a lot better to me than most of the alternatives.

I mean, I'd go for benevolent dictatorship if I got to be the dictator, but in reality it doesn't seem to work out so well!

 

[Hazelelponi]

Maybe, but it's what we have, and it looks a lot better to me than most of the alternatives.

I mean, I'd go for benevolent dictatorship if I got to be the dictator, but in reality it doesn't seem to work out so well!

The Gospel message is one of salvation and the reconciliation of mankind to God. To make it about anything else is not from God, and is not of God.

God bless.

I hadnt realized this was just a political forum. I'll avoid this forum in the future. I don't believe politics have anything to do with Gods message to man.

 

[Paidiske]

The Gospel message is one of salvation and the reconciliation of mankind to God. To make it about anything else is not from God, and is not of God.

But that salvation and reconciliation will affect every aspect of human life. You can't compartmentalise salvation away from everything you are and do; including the human systems we call "political."

God bless. I hadnt realized this was just a political forum. I'll avoid this forum in the future. I don't believe politics have anything to do with Gods message to man.

It's not a political forum, particularly. I'm interested in social policy, and will cheerfully discuss it, but there is a wide range of topics and interests represented by the members who post here. You're welcome to explore and post in other threads, or start apolitical topics.