Is the ELCA in a holding pattern?

[FireDragon76]

I am not quite sure where to post this, here or in Whosoever Will, May Come... so perhaps it should be moved.

My question is for Lutherans in general... is the ELCA in a holding pattern? My perception is that it is, that the denominational leadership has no vision about the Church's mission in the modern world, beyond vague milqtoast stuff and a desire to be comprehensive towards educated white, eurocentric values. A few pastors, such as Pr. Nadia Bolz-Weber, are outspoken, passionate, and more visionary, but it seems like she's lightening in a bottle that few imitate. The denomination is fearful about membership losses but no deep soul-searching about what can be done to change things.

It feels like the people doing the real good in the world and making a positive impact on our culture aren't even Christian, must less Lutheran. It's a strange realization for me to have. What good is it really to be Lutheran now days, how is that serving our neighbor? Or are we just smugly self-satisfied in a middling sort of way with our sola theology?

 

[tampasteve]

I think holding pattern is about the best way to describe it. The ELCA had been making great inroads to full communion with other denominations in the USA over the last 20 years, but the UMC were kind of holding it back recently (not in a bad way necessarily). Now that the UMC is decided on their current course I believe it will help the ELCA start to go back to making overtures to an eventual merger with the EC and possibly the other liberal denominations that already share communion with the ELCA.

All that said, the loss of members in the ELCA, EC, etc. is a real issue that almost none of the leadership seems able to stem. Even local ministers that are trying to make an impact in their communities are limited by resources and people. A church with an average attendance of 25 people can only make so much of an impact in their area.

 

[FireDragon76]

I think holding pattern is about the best way to describe it. The ELCA had been making great inroads to full communion with other denominations in the USA over the last 20 years, but the UMC were kind of holding it back recently (not in a bad way necessarily). Now that the UMC is decided on their current course I believe it will help the ELCA start to go back to making overtures to an eventual merger with the EC and possibly the other liberal denominations that already share communion with the ELCA.

All that said, the loss of members in the ELCA, EC, etc. is a real issue that almost none of the leadership seems able to stem. Even local ministers that are trying to make an impact in their communities are limited by resources and people. A church with an average attendance of 25 people can only make so much of an impact in their area.

Episcopalians punch way above their weight in terms of their influence in our culture, and they have a rich tradition of spirituality. Perhaps we as a denomination need some of their vitality. When I see Bishop Michael Curry preach, he's always inspiring, whereas Bishop Eaton seems irenic to the point of seeming to be languid. She's a nurturing presence, and that's all: Michael Curry sets out to light a fire under you and get your excited about being a Christian again.

It almost feels like ELCA Lutherans like being perpetually coddled and mothered, and we are unwilling to deal with anything remotely threatening. Even our 2009 social statement on sexuality was relatively bland.

 

[Tigger45]

I am not quite sure where to post this, here or in Whosoever Will, May Come... so perhaps it should be moved.

My question is for Lutherans in general... is the ELCA in a holding pattern? My perception is that it is, that the denominational leadership has no vision about the Church's mission in the modern world, beyond vague milqtoast stuff and a desire to be comprehensive towards educated white, eurocentric values. A few pastors, such as Pr. Nadia Bolz-Weber, are outspoken, passionate, and more visionary, but it seems like she's lightening in a bottle that few imitate. The denomination is fearful about membership losses but no deep soul-searching about what can be done to change things.

It feels like the people doing the real good in the world and making a positive impact on our culture aren't even Christian, must less Lutheran. It's a strange realization for me to have. What good is it really to be Lutheran now days, how is that serving our neighbor? Or are we just smugly self-satisfied in a middling sort of way with our sola theology?[\QUOTE]

This paradigm seems to be embedded within their DNA bc I see this cultural dynamic across the whole spectrum of Lutheranism.

 

[FireDragon76]

This paradigm seems to be embedded within their DNA bc I see this cultural dynamic across the whole spectrum of Lutheranism.

Yes, it seems many Lutherans internalize this idea that grace is, above all, comforting. But the idea that grace can be exciting or liberating is something that I think goes over many heads. I think the Lutherans that get this most are like Pr. Nadia, who comes from a Fundamentalist background. In many ways, this is closer to the experience of Luther himself. Whereas I think for alot of cradle Lutherans, they are left a bit bewildered and come away from it all with a vague moralism. They don't actually live the dialectic that those that come from intense religious backgrounds do.

 

[Resha Caner]

Given I'm not ELCA and the reasons are doctrinal rather than happenstance, I'm probably not the one to comment. Further, aside from the obvious discomfort of having a church dissolve out from under you (been there), I think there is a valid challenge that asks why any particular denomination needs to survive. The Church will continue, so why does it matter if the ELCA (or LCMS) continues?

There are specific ELCA congregations (and individuals) that are still essentially Confessional, but in general I consider the ELCA so far gone that I don't think of them as Lutheran. It's just a label - a cultural artifact - to call them Lutheran. So, were the LCMS to disappear and the ELCA remain, I would probably go to an Anglican or Orthodox congregation. I've visited some near me that are close to my Confessional views. IOW, I'm looking for a set of beliefs, not a name.

Finally, though, the question is essentially one of membership decline, which is a general trend across all traditional denominations in the U.S. My answer would be the same as that given by several LCMS pastors. It's not a matter of ecumenism or being trendy or being more charismatic (or whatever bandwagon churches try to climb upon). It's a matter of missions. We need to start thinking of the U.S. as a mission field. I know in my own congregation there is still an attitude that "missions" means poor miniorities living outside the U.S. That's the attitude we need to change. Africa is now the growing Christian community and the U.S. is dying.

 

[FireDragon76]

Mainline theology now days has a great deal to say about mission but it doesn't seem to necessarily filter down into the ELCA at the congregational level of church councils. I believe alot of people on those councils don't really have much of a grasp of the theology. People resent the kinds of changes that I believe are necessary. In many ways my church is frozen in the same decade it was built. Sure, we are a bit more liberal in some ways, but other ways we haven't changed, and many, many people are just fine with that.

The reason I have thought about this is lately I have realized I either need to start advocating for change, or leave the congregation. There are ELCA churches in the area that might suit me better but they are farther away and not convenient. Advocating for change will be difficult because the church has had such an irenic atmosphere for so long and it seems Lutherans pathologically avoid any hint of conflict.

 

[Tigger45]

Frankly I see this phenomena common in all sacramental denominations. We obtain the graces of God trough word and sacrament and then go home with a full belly and rely on the pastor through preaching and the official mission agenda to fulfill our obligation for spreading the Gospel.

 

[Tigger45]

Episcopalians punch way above their weight in terms of their influence in our culture, and they have a rich tradition of spirituality. Perhaps we as a denomination need some of their vitality. When I see Bishop Michael Curry preach, he's always inspiring, whereas Bishop Eaton seems irenic to the point of seeming to be languid. She's a nurturing presence, and that's all: Michael Curry sets out to light a fire under you and get your excited about being a Christian again.

It almost feels like ELCA Lutherans like being perpetually coddled and mothered, and we are unwilling to deal with anything remotely threatening. Even our 2009 social statement on sexuality was relatively bland.

I agree with this. Locally our Episcopal churches are far more active in the community compared to any of the Lutheran synods.

Episcopal are currently too liberal for me but I was highly impressed with Bishop Curry and his outspokenness concerning 'Standing Rock'.

 

[Resha Caner]

Frankly I see this phenomena common in all sacramental denominations. We obtain the graces of God trough word and sacrament and then go home with a full belly and rely on the pastor through preaching and the official mission agenda to fulfill our obligation for spreading the Gospel.

I agree. The problem is that encouraging community activity too easily slips into the moralism discussed in my other thread. Lutherans are right to be wary of such things. That is why, IMO, the Kingdom of the Left needs to come from lay leadership. In doing that, the next challenge is getting people in the right head space that serving your community does not mean shouting the Gospel at strangers. In fact, the Gospel may never come up. Keeping all that Law/Gospel, Justification/Sanctification, Left/Right, Teaching/Serving stuff in balance is very, very, very, very difficult.

 

[FireDragon76]

Frankly I see this phenomena common in all sacramental denominations. We obtain the graces of God trough word and sacrament and then go home with a full belly and rely on the pastor through preaching and the official mission agenda to fulfill our obligation for spreading the Gospel.

I like your keen insight here.

A fundamentalist, formulaic, and reductionistic sort of Lutheranism can definitely come across as quenching the life out of any sense of spirituality. If it simply becomes a matter of listening to a formulaic Law and Gospel sermon, scanning a list of "thou shalt nots", confessing them to God, then getting your assurance of grace and going home... how is that not, in its own way, analogous to a kind of pharisaism? I am afraid that attitude is probably not rare at all among Lutherans who may be primed to accept it through catechesis.

Sometimes when my pastor is just having a bad day at preparing a sermon, which seems to happen more and more, he falls back into a very formulaic sort of pattern of preaching. Especially if any sort of Jesus crucified for you Gospel reading comes up. He slips into that sort of preaching. Difficult to put into words, but I think you get the picture. I can only guess it comes from his particular confessional orientation (remember, he grew up in the LCMS), but who knows... ?

That's one reason I miss our old vicar. He was not afraid to preach a three point sermon and make some suggestions at the end about what we were invited to do in response. We also had this severe but sincere old pastor (he was tall and had the vibes of an Old Testament prophet) as a substitute a few months ago and he made the crazy suggestion that we should read the Bible and ask God to show us what he would have us learn from it by actually praying through it. I could sense Lutherans squirming in their seat on that one!

Personally, as different as they are, I like both Pr. Jordan Cooper and Pr. Nadia Bolz-Weber (take your pick). Neither one preach a reductionistic sort of Lutheranism.

 

[Paidiske]

Mainline theology now days has a great deal to say about mission but it doesn't seem to necessarily filter down into the ELCA at the congregational level of church councils. I believe alot of people on those councils don't really have much of a grasp of the theology. People resent the kinds of changes that I believe are necessary. In many ways my church is frozen in the same decade it was built. Sure, we are a bit more liberal in some ways, but other ways we haven't changed, and many, many people are just fine with that.

If I may make some observations from what sounds like a culturally very similar place...

I don't think the theology is the problem, per se. I have people on my parish council who have studied theology at a tertiary level and who will talk the talk on mission. BUT...

When it comes down to how people actually want to be church, they want what they've become used to. They want it to feel like home. They want the comfort of the familiar, in surroundings and relationships and liturgy. And so on; because after all, God's been with us over our time so far, and that has been good.

What they don't see, I think, is the extent to which the culture around us has changed, and how much we are going to need to relate to it in new ways in order to be able to proclaim the gospel in any sort of meaningful way. Our old ways of being not only are no longer attractive to the young people around us, in many ways they are no longer even comprehensible.

In effect I'm asking my people to learn a new language and transition to a new cultural milieu in order to be effective ambassadors for Christ; and even if in principle they agree with me that we need to do that, they are not equipped for it. They don't know how, and - like anyone - they resent being asked to do what feels impossible. So I try to do small things, have small wins, make baby steps and build a sense of momentum, but goodness that is a slow, slow process...

I don't know if that provides you with any answers, but perhaps it's some comfort to know that you're not alone! Change is hard. But it is - by the grace of God - possible. I think a big part of what sustains me as I wrestle with it is having other like-minded people to share the process with; would you have anyone like that in your parish, or would you feel totally isolated in your desire for change?

 

[FireDragon76]

If I may make some observations from what sounds like a culturally very similar place...

I don't think the theology is the problem, per se. I have people on my parish council who have studied theology at a tertiary level and who will talk the talk on mission. BUT...

When it comes down to how people actually want to be church, they want what they've become used to. They want it to feel like home. They want the comfort of the familiar, in surroundings and relationships and liturgy. And so on; because after all, God's been with us over our time so far, and that has been good.

What they don't see, I think, is the extent to which the culture around us has changed, and how much we are going to need to relate to it in new ways in order to be able to proclaim the gospel in any sort of meaningful way. Our old ways of being not only are no longer attractive to the young people around us, in many ways they are no longer even comprehensible.

In effect I'm asking my people to learn a new language and transition to a new cultural milieu in order to be effective ambassadors for Christ; and even if in principle they agree with me that we need to do that, they are not equipped for it. They don't know how, and - like anyone - they resent being asked to do what feels impossible. So I try to do small things, have small wins, make baby steps and build a sense of momentum, but goodness that is a slow, slow process...

I don't know if that provides you with any answers, but perhaps it's some comfort to know that you're not alone! Change is hard. But it is - by the grace of God - possible. I think a big part of what sustains me as I wrestle with it is having other like-minded people to share the process with; would you have anyone like that in your parish, or would you feel totally isolated in your desire for change?

Thanks for the insights. Perhaps this is more of a problem in congregationalist type denominations, such as my own, but people tend to act like they own the church, underneath all the talk about it being God's. I especially got that feeling yesterday at the supper and vesper's service we had, when people recollected about various happenings over the years in the church, and I heard a few veiled complaints about the way things were done at various points.

I think I can understand why there is so much passion in some denominations for church planting. Once a church gets established for decades, there is inertia and people take ownership of it and become protective. That may have worked at one time, but in the place I am living, in Orlando, Florida, culture is far more dynamic.

 

[tampasteve]

Interestingly the Parish I attend most frequently is ordaining a new Pastor tomorrow. He is young and dynamic, but the older Pastor will be missed as I really loved his sermons and found him to be a good man of God. That said, hopefully a younger man can help energize the Parish, it tends to average around 20 people on Sunday, but the community could support a much larger congregation. The man as deacon started some new programs to get people involved, Pub Theology (people meet at a local pub to discuss the topic of the week) is one that I like the idea of.

 

[FireDragon76]

Interestingly the Parish I attend most frequently is ordaining a new Pastor tomorrow. He is young and dynamic, but the older Pastor will be missed as I really loved his sermons and found him to be a good man of God. That said, hopefully a younger man can help energize the Parish, it tends to average around 20 people on Sunday, but the community could support a much larger congregation. The man as deacon started some new programs to get people involved, Pub Theology (people meet at a local pub to discuss the topic of the week) is one that I like the idea of.

We used to have something similar when I attended an Orthodox church. That's a good idea to have one of those, it helps draw in interest to the church.