Is The Earth Young or Old

[Guide To The Bible]

Not really, Gen. 1:1 is the creation of the universe. When the Spirit is hovering over the deep the earth is in utter darkness. 'Let there be light' commences the first day of creation. I know the text and there is an alternatiba reading. God created the universe to include the sun, moon and start and then perhaps minutes perhaps billions of years later creation week starts

Perhaps this perhaps that. Anything is possible with perhaps in a sentence but there is no perhaps in God's Word. .

 

[mark kennedy]

Perhaps this perhaps that. Anything is possible with perhaps in a sentence but there is no perhaps in God's Word. .

All we know about the creation of the 'heavens and the earth', is that it was, 'in the begining'. That readers the age of the cosmos and earth moot with rewards to the doctrine of creation. The emphasis in the text it that God created the universe, life in general and man in particular. This consistant with John 1 where Jesus is presente as creator of all things and the source of life. The New Testament emphasises the resurrection and eternal life not the age of the universe.

 

[expos4ever]

No, Jesus was God incarnate and could not speak anything other than the truth. Get used to it, it's just the way God is.

This is not an answer, at least not if we are going to have a serious discussion. So: How do you know that some of the things that Jesus believed about the world were not incorrect, given that He took on human form.

He suffered some of the limitations of being human - hunger, thirst, fatigue - how do you know He did not suffer other limitations of being human, such as imperfect knowledge of the world?

Many Christians will claim to believe Jesus "shared our humanity" but, when pressed, they appear to believe He was like "God stuffed into a body" - as if Jesus inherited none of the limitations of being human.

 

[AJTruth]

Creation, Science, God & Evolution

Most people think of the big bang as an explosion in space, scientists use the term to describe the beginning of space, time, matter and energy.

The Bible describes a few key characteristics of the universe that scientists now have the ability to measure.

Scripture also talks about the constancy of the laws of physics, most explicitly stated in Jeremiah 33:25. Genesis 1:1 and Hebrews 11:3 declare that the universe began to exist (thus required a Beginner). Romans 8:18-21 speaks of a pervasive law of decay.

These four characteristics, a singular beginning, cosmic expansion, and constant laws of physics including the law of decay. Define a big bang universe.

Elohim/God = (The Great Creator) Took the necessary materials and the thousand/million/billion? of calculations required.

Psalms 103: 20-21 teaches:
20 Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that are mighty and excel in strength, created to do his ""commandments"", ""hearkening unto the voice of his word"".

When all was ready. Elohim/God (The Great Creator) By His Spoken Word gave the "Command" """Light Be"""!

And BANG!!! Time, space matter and energy. The physical universe as we know it, "Began".

FIRST CAUSE: INTELLIGENT DESIGN
(Then comes space, time, science & evolution)

At least five biblical writers describe an expanding universe (Job 9:8; Psalm 104:2; Isaiah 40:22; 42:5; 44:24; 45:12; 48:13; 51:13; Jeremiah 10:12; 51:15; and Zechariah 12:1).

The Hebrew verb translated “created” (""bara"") in Genesis 1:1 has as its primary definition: “bringing into existence something new, something that did not exist before.”

The proclamation that God created ("bara" something, never before, brand new) the entirety of the heavens is stated seven times in the Old Testament. (Genesis 1:1; 2:3; 2:4; Psalm 148:5; Isaiah 40:26; 42:5; 45:18).

Hebrews 11:3 states that the universe we can measure and detect was made out of that which we cannot measure or detect.

Also, Isaiah 45:5-22; John 1:3; & Colossians 1:15-17 stipulate that God alone is the agent for the universe’s existence.

Bible begins identifying man's special creation as more then just another animal only 6,000 yrs ago. When God "breathed (BARA something, never before, brand new) a soul/spirit into mans nostrils" and time as we know it began. Maranatha

 

[AJTruth]

When I became a Christian I believed in a very old Earth, billions of years etc. But eventually I had to decide whether the Bible was right or wrong. Whether Jesus was wrong when He said Adam and Eve were made in the beginning. Jesus believed in the Old Testament in its entirety and once I had researched this issue, I too came to believe in a young Earth just less than 6000 years old.

So lets go, young or old?

How old is earth? How long did creation take?


God created the Heavens & Earth (big bang) He created man & following mans chronology in the Bible we come up with aprox 6,000 yrs (that's man as a living soul only)

A few thoughts I believe are worth exploring:

The Hebrew word "yom" used in Genesis by Moses translates into English as "day". "Yom" is used in the KJ Bible over 500 time's. According to the Englishman’s Hebrew Concordance there are over 58 different ways "yom" has been translated in the K. James Bible

"Yom" can refer to a variety of time periods ranging from “forever” (Ps 23:6), “age” (Gen 18:11), “years” (I Kings 1:1), “always” (Deut 5:29), & “season” (Jos 24:7)

From the context of Gen 1 & 2, there are 3 different ways Moses used this word. The word "yom" refers to day as in “daylight” (12 hours) in Gen 1:5, to 24-hour days in Gen 1:14, & to a long period of time (“in the day” referring to all six of the preceding creation days) in Gen 2:4

In Gen 2:4 does the word "day" (yom) refer to a 24 hr period? Clearly no!

Secondly:
I submit to you day six

Things that take place on Day 6 alone:

Day Six, alone with Adam. As we turn to Genesis 2, we find that a considerable interval of time must have intervened between the creation of Adam and the creation of Eve.

The LORD God put Adam in the Garden of Eden. Adam is just a man, not a God. His mission is to cultivate and keep the garden. After that God then gives Adam a major assignment. He was to "classify and name" "every species of animals and birds". The garden must have had hundreds maybe thousands of species of mammal, reptile, insect, and birds.

Gen 2:19-20
19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field;

It must have required some years, or, at the very least, a considerable number of months to complete this comprehensive inventory, interacting and naming of all the birds, beasts, and insects that populated the Garden of Eden.

It is apparent to me that Genesis 1 was never intended to teach six creative 24hr days. When Adam and Eve were both created, lasted a mere twenty-four hours. It would seem to border on sheer irrationality to insist that all of Adam’s experiences in Genesis 2:15-22 could have been crowded into the last hour or two of a literal twenty-four hour day. Maranatha

 

[klutedavid]

You're right, a handful of ministers would know more about evolutionary biology than thousands of people who have dedicated their lives to progressing the field and learning more about biology.
Evolution is not a conspiracy against Christians.

Hello Scott.

The theory of evolution proposes that one species, becomes another species, and so on. The fossil record should contain innumerable transitional fossils. All I have observed in the fossil record, is the sudden appearance of distinct species. So why does the fossil record lack the transitional forms?

 

[klutedavid]

Evolution is not a belief system.

Hello Scott.

Science is a belief system, evolutionary theory itself is a belief system. Science believes that observing the universe, will lead to an understanding of the universe. This understanding is based on a belief in the application of the scientific methodology.

Ultimately science can never prove anything to be true. One would need absolute knowledge, to be in a position to establish that something was indeed true.

A theory in science will only hold, as long as no contradictory evidence arises. Science does change over time, theories come and go.

 

[scottyp588]

Hello Scott.

Science is a belief system, evolutionary theory itself is a belief system. Science believes that observing the universe, will lead to an understanding of the universe. This understanding is based on a belief in the application of the scientific methodology.

Ultimately science can never prove anything to be true. One would need absolute knowledge, to be in a position to establish that something was indeed true.

A theory in science will only hold, as long as no contradictory evidence arises. Science does change over time, theories come and go.

Science does change over time. My problem is that a majority of Christians view scientist as a collective whole that conspires against them. That is completely false. Science has a very wide range of fields. Not all scientist agree with each other. They debate amongst themselves just as much as Christians do.
Science proves things all the time. Most of things you own are because scientist pushed their fields of study to the next level. So to say that scientist are evil because the majority of them don't claim to believe in God is ridiculous. Science makes our lives better. Our quality of life is vastly improved because men and women have discovered things about our universe that we otherwise would have deemed unneccisary through religion.
You don't have to believe in something to accept it as truth.
I don't believe that 1+1=2. But I have accepted that 1+1=2 because I've looked at the evidence and know how it works.

 

[miamited]

It's actually easy for me to know the Earth is less than 6000 years old because the Bible has all the dates we need to in fact accurately date the earth to year 5987, month 6, day 8.

Hi GTTB,

Well, I don't know about being that accurate, but...

I wouldn't argue such small points. I'm satisfied that it's somewhere around 6,000 years old based on the genealogies. So, your age is right in the heart of the range.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

Jeremiah 2:27

Saying to a stock, Thou art my father; and to a stone, Thou hast brought me forth

Hi all,

Just to point out, since this is the second time this post has been made, God is mocking Israel in this passage. He is making the claim that Israel is bowing before rocks and wood rather than the one true and living God as their creator.

Isaiah makes the same charge against Israel. He writes down God's words about how they take a piece of wood and with half of it they make a fire to cook their food and then the other half of that same piece of wood that was for building a fire, they carve out an idol to worship.

So, I just wanted ot make sure that some weren't thinking that this passage of Jeremiah was in any way some writing of man or God that mankind came from rocks or wood.

God bless you all,
In Christ, ted

 

[klutedavid]

Science does change over time. My problem is that a majority of Christians view scientist as a collective whole that conspires against them. That is completely false. Science has a very wide range of fields. Not all scientist agree with each other. They debate amongst themselves just as much as Christians do.

Don't get me wrong, I am not opposed to the scientific endeavor.
It's just that folk do not understand that many scientific theories, are temporary phenomenon. Science has many disciplines, some are more robust, some are more speculative.

Science proves things all the time.

Science cannot prove anything to be true, that is impossible.
Science works in degrees of certainty, not absolute truth.

Most of things you own are because scientist pushed their fields of study to the next level.

Inventions resulting from the scientific pursuit, usually are not associated with the scientific topics, that we debate. For example my beloved toaster, has nothing to do with the theory of evolution.

So to say that scientist are evil because the majority of them don't claim to believe in God is ridiculous.

I don't say that scientists are evil.

Science makes our lives better. Our quality of life is vastly improved because men and women have discovered things about our universe that we otherwise would have deemed unneccisary through religion.

Science may in the end be our downfall. Population explosions around the world, are placing tremendous strain on the limited resources worldwide. Climate change seems to be increasing.
Too many problems to list, science is usually at the root of the problems. Monkeys and science are not a good mix.

You don't have to believe in something to accept it as truth. I don't believe that 1+1=2. But I have accepted that 1+1=2 because I've looked at the evidence and know how it works.

Actually, if you accept the axioms of mathematics, one and one was proven to equal two. This major break through was achieved last century, please read the extract below.

Some idea of the scope and comprehensiveness of the “Principia” can be gleaned from the fact that it takes over 360 pages to prove definitively that 1 + 1 = 2. Today, it is widely considered to be one of the most important and seminal works in logic since Aristotle's "Organon". It seemed remarkably successful and resilient in its ambitious aims, and soon gained world fame for Russell and Whitehead. (wikipedia)

Most people are ignorant of this fact.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

How old is earth? How long did creation take?


God created the Heavens & Earth (big bang) He created man & following mans chronology in the Bible we come up with aprox 6,000 yrs (that's man as a living soul only)

A few thoughts I believe are worth exploring:

The Hebrew word "yom" used in Genesis by Moses translates into English as "day". "Yom" is used in the KJ Bible over 500 time's. According to the Englishman’s Hebrew Concordance there are over 58 different ways "yom" has been translated in the K. James Bible

"Yom" can refer to a variety of time periods ranging from “forever” (Ps 23:6), “age” (Gen 18:11), “years” (I Kings 1:1), “always” (Deut 5:29), & “season” (Jos 24:7)

From the context of Gen 1 & 2, there are 3 different ways Moses used this word. The word "yom" refers to day as in “daylight” (12 hours) in Gen 1:5, to 24-hour days in Gen 1:14, & to a long period of time (“in the day” referring to all six of the preceding creation days) in Gen 2:4

In Gen 2:4 does the word "day" (yom) refer to a 24 hr period? Clearly no!

Secondly:
I submit to you day six

Things that take place on Day 6 alone:

Day Six, alone with Adam. As we turn to Genesis 2, we find that a considerable interval of time must have intervened between the creation of Adam and the creation of Eve.

The LORD God put Adam in the Garden of Eden. Adam is just a man, not a God. His mission is to cultivate and keep the garden. After that God then gives Adam a major assignment. He was to "classify and name" "every species of animals and birds". The garden must have had hundreds maybe thousands of species of mammal, reptile, insect, and birds.

Gen 2:19-20
19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field;

It must have required some years, or, at the very least, a considerable number of months to complete this comprehensive inventory, interacting and naming of all the birds, beasts, and insects that populated the Garden of Eden.

It is apparent to me that Genesis 1 was never intended to teach six creative 24hr days. When Adam and Eve were both created, lasted a mere twenty-four hours. It would seem to border on sheer irrationality to insist that all of Adam’s experiences in Genesis 2:15-22 could have been crowded into the last hour or two of a literal twenty-four hour day. Maranatha

The Bible dates the Earth to 5987 years old.

Each of the first six days are described as having one evening and one morning. The words used for evening and morning mean just that.

There are better more accurate Bibles than the KJV now and the best we have is the Interlinear Bible:

 

[Guide To The Bible]

Hi GTTB,

Well, I don't know about being that accurate, but...

I wouldn't argue such small points. I'm satisfied that it's somewhere around 6,000 years old based on the genealogies. So, your age is right in the heart of the range.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

This should help:

 

[Monna]

Guide to the Bible: You still haven't answered the question: in what way is this equipping you for "every good work?" Give me evidence of how your stand on a six 24-hour day creation has resulted in your doing more good works or better works.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

Guide to the Bible: You still haven't answered the question: in what way is this equipping you for "every good work?" Give me evidence of how your stand on a six 24-hour day creation has resulted in your doing more good works or better works.

When did I get asked that? I don't remember.

 

[Dosblade]

Well when MAD was made.. we can say about 6000 but the earth can be billions old.

 

[miamited]

It would seem from the discussion that "the truth" is a matter of interpretation, or perhaps one of perspective. Six blind men of Hindustan had individual encounters with an elephant. When they met and discussed their encounters each of them had a different "truth" none of which were true, but each quite understandable given their blindness and their individual point of contact with the animal. All of their truths together were not collectively true either. Perhaps we are too proud to understand that we are all to some extent blind to the whole truth (we see through a glass darkly...).

The Bible is not a scientific treatise. Don't make it one. Gravity is not described in the Bible as such. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, is not true, or doesn't impact our lives daily.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, how does holding one position or another equip YOU (personally) for "all good works?" Faith must be just as much based on evidence as science (read Hebrews), so I'd like some evidential testimonies in answer. Otherwise I am getting nothing out of this thread.

Hi monna,

You don't seem to understand what's at stake here. First of all, you ask how believing one way or another would be of any value in equipping one for good works? Let's be clear that the Scriptures are roughly 1,000 pages. There is a lot that we are told in all those words on those 1,000 pages that have nothing whatsoever with equipping anyone for good works. As a matter of fact, most of the words contained within the whole of the Scriptures have anything to do with equipping one for good works. There are actually very, very, very few words in the Scriptures that have any relevance to that subject. And yet, we are told to study them and that they are a lamp unto our feet.

While I fully agree that there are some truths contained within the Scriptures that prepare us and equip us for doing good works of service, it isn't all that the Scriptures tell us is important in our walk of faith.

Secondly, you play loose with truth. To you, truth seems to be a parable about an elephant that shows that truth can be whatever someone believes based on their experience rather than on reality. You are correct that the Scriptures are not a scientific treatise, but then, why does something have to be a scientific treatise in order for it to be a writing that tells truth? Is it your belief that before we should believe that the Scriptures tell us the truth, that God would have to show us all of the equations and measurements and explain all the details of how He figured all of this out? He must write it out to us as some long and drab dissertation using scientific nomenclature and lots of graphs and such that would make it show, scientifically, how He created all things. Is that what you believe the Scriptures would have to be like before we should put any stock into whether it tells us the truth about a thing or not? Tell me, where's all the scientific study that shows that Jesus is the Messiah? What scientific findings are included in the Scriptures that prove to you that He was born of a virgin? Why should we believe that anything written in the Scriptures is the truth? After all, it's not a scientific treatise, right?

Finally, there is truth. There is a reality that actually happened that caused you and I to be living and breathing on the earth today. God asks us to believe that it is because of Him and He gives us an account of His power and glory and love that caused you and I to be what we are today. God asks for those who are His to believe Him. Abraham was declared righteous because he believed God. Simple and direct. Abraham believed God.

So, I'm cautious about sifting the instructions and words of the Scriptures down to just one thing that we have to do. However, if there is one thing that I believe the Scriptures declare of God's children, it is that they believe God. They live by faith and not by sight. Even Paul warns us of being deceived by the knowledge of the world: Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

Philosophy is nothing more than knowledge. Paul seems to be clearly warning believers to beware of those who would cheat us through knowledge. That is, knowledge that is based on the traditions of men and according to the basic principles of the world. God, through Christ, created all that is in this realm and Paul warns us to beware of such knowledge that would rob us of that understanding.

Now, you're free to believe in your heart that it doesn't matter because it doesn't have anything to do with equipping one for good works, but really, what could be a more good work than to proclaim to others that God has told us the truth and to help them understand that so that they, too can understand the power and glory and love of the God who calls them to also become His children through the love He has shown us through His one and only Son. Would you not consider it a good work to help people to understand the truth of God?

I am one who believes that truth matters.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

Hi again monna,

One last comment on this questions of yours.

Jesus tells his disciples about an event, a reality, that will come true on the day of his Father's judgment. Of course, some can't be sure of that because the Scriptures are not a 'scientific treatise', but...

Jesus' description of that day is that there are going to be many people who were chrisitans who come to him proclaiming of those great good works that you say we need only be concerned with. Some of them did great miracles in the name of Jesus. Some of them drove out demons in the name of Jesus. Some of them will have prophesied in the name of Jesus. All of these things would be good works, right? Driving out demons from others and doing great miracles for others. Prophesying what the Lord says to others. Those sound a lot like the greater good works that he told his disciples would be done after he was gone.

However, Jesus says that he doesn't know them. Why? These people obviously knew him. I can't imagine anyone having done the things that they claim to have done, in the name of Jesus, and not made a confession of Christ at some point in their lives. Why didn't Jesus know them?

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[Monna]

Ted,
you wrote "There is a lot that we are told in all those words on those 1,000 pages that have nothing whatsoever with equipping anyone for good works. As a matter of fact, most of the words contained within the whole of the Scriptures have anything to do with equipping one for good works. There are actually very, very, very few words in the Scriptures that have any relevance to that subject. And yet, we are told to study them and that they are a lamp unto our feet."

Paul wrote "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Tim 3 16-17)(My emphasis)

Ted, does all mean "all" or "very, very, very few words?" Or perhaps Paul's letter is not telling the truth? The creation account as a whole tells us a lot about my relationship to God and to nature, even to other people. And it has affected my attitude and behaviour towards each.

Or do you interpret Paul to say "all scripture is given by inspiration of God, but only part of it is profitable for.... and very, very very few parts are intended to equip you for good works?" If you want to insist that the single word yom must be interpreted in a specific way in Genesis, why pretend that "all" doesn't mean "all" in 2 Timothy?

As to my use of the allegory of the six blind men and the elephant. The point is not that truth can be whatever you want to be, but that truth is almost always much bigger than we think it is. Most of us get only a glimpse of the whole truth, and some of us get different glimpses. We need to be careful in how we interact with each other when claiming our truth is THE truth.

In today's world we tend to equate truth with fact. They are not the same. Jesus is the truth. When he claimed he was the truth, did he mean only "I am a fact?" No he means much more, in fact his being true is very active. Facts are inactive. Truth is much much bigger, even in concept than you or I. Am I a human being? As a matter of scientific fact, yes - I am a instance of homo sapiens (though some of my friends and maybe even you, would question the sapiens part.) But am I a truly whole human being - all that God intended me to be? No, far from it. I fall far short of being a true human being as God intended, and that is shown primarily through my behaviour, my relationship to others, and my relationship to God, even my understanding of myself.

As to believing / faith: we are not only to believe Jesus words, we are to DO them also. We are not saved by the doing, but through believing - but only through the kind of believing that shows such conviction that it leads to action. Jesus compared the person who believes but doesn't act to a foolish man who builds his house on the sand. Abram believed God had set aside land for him and his descendants, he got up and went where God sent him. He was willing to sacrifice Isaac because he was convinced God had told him Isaac was the son of promise (to be the father of a large nation) and that God therefore would resurrect Isaac if necessary. God intervened when he saw the active conviction in Abraham. James says faith without works is dead. This is what it means - not that you are saved by works.

I have tried to avoid taking one side or the other in the debate on short or long history of the earth, primarily because I believe the argument is a distraction from what is really essential in the account. And it is divisive. I note and feel a sense of antagonism in your response to my submission, a desire to show I am wrong and you are right with regard to the long or short creation period - that is what I mean by divisive. This is a common and cunning tactic of the devil to disunite and distract us from things that are far more important in bringing the kingdom of God to earth - which is presumably what you pray for every time you pray the Lord's prayer. My appeal is to look beyond the debate on how long a yom is and focus on what major truths God is telling us through this account.

 

[Monna]

Oh, Ted, I'd like to make some additional comments on what you wrote about Jesus recognising good works.
In 1 Corinthians 13 we read "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And if I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body a]">[a]to be burned, but have not love, it profiteth me nothing." (American Standard Version)

God is love. He cannot do anything except it being done in love. It is an intricate part of his being. Nothing that he does is not done in love.

We on the other hand can and do a lot without love. Nothing, but NOTHING that we do in ourselves is good enough for God. All our righteousness is as filthy rags to him. Only what God does in and through us is good enough for him. And there is no other source of love than God. (Read John's letters to see how important this truth is.) And in 1 Corinthians 13:3 it is very clear that there is a huge difference between charity and love, even charity to the point of dying for a cause. If it is not done with love it counts for nothing. So all the healing, casting out demons, etc etc that those "disciples" did, if they were done in self-interest and not love were not even recognised by God as good works. Because they did not have God in them, even if they use Jesus name. And so God doesn't recognise the doers.

This is the kind of "truth" we need to understand. That "good works" as we define them (and believe to be truly good works) are not necessarily good works in God's eyes - and it is these godly good works that the Scriptures are meant to equip us for.