Is the Earth flat or round???

FEZZILLA

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I only see what I read. The verses that you posted do not even come close to mentioning a sphere, globe, spinning or any such concept...
I posted a few of them.. it was enough...

If you want to twist and extrapolate and stretch and spin the scripture to say such a thing.. that is your right...

I, on the other hand... take it as it is written. No globe, no sphere....
So you believe that "round" means flat? Perhaps a lesson in old English will help.


Old English Meaning of "Circle"

Contents
Introduction
Latin Definition of circulus
English Definition of Circle
The Conclusion of Circle

INTRODUCTION

The English word "circle" came to us from the 14th century and was derived from the Latin "circulus." In the last lesson we examined 16 globe earth verses from the Bible from the Latin Vulgate which had a profound influence on the development of the English language. In this lesson we will examine the old fashion poetic use of the English word "circle" and how the meaning and usage has change through the centuries.

Latin Definition of circulus
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...830368afb4bac7f35986b499566e5e1c87f7fb1d.html

circle noun: orbis, circus, circlus, circuitio, circumitio

Notice the word "orbis" is used here.

Latin Definition of orbis
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...nH_4pWG-R3wE0oxCmEZRMCTsb0V4OyGjsFFezGauP0a3E

The Latin word circulus is also used to describe anything that is round.

round noun: globus, orbis, gyrus, circlus, circes

In this usage of circulus the words globus, orbis and gyrus apply.

Latin Definition of globus
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...934c2bebef2303defabcb02375b1b4be4e79e940.html

Latin Definition of Gyrus as used in Isaiah 40:22
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...8dce02c00388566751dfd448c6814ee23d104cb1.html

Even when we examine the Latin word sphaera we find that circulus applies
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...1c9846d93ecdcf9a42efcd3f8e52c156f40899f1.html

English Definition of Circle

English is a language which continues to change with each passing century of use. Here in the 21st century "circle" no longer is used as a synonym but is used in a more strict scientific sense to describe a much more rigid 2D shape. Though in old English the word circle still carried the Latin usage which is why our Bibles say "circle" in Isaiah 40:22.

The Merriam-Webster's Dictionary
Definition of CIRCLE

Here you will see echos of the Latin definition as applied in old English.

Under "3: something in the form of a circle or section of a circle: such as..."

"d: a circle formed on the surface of a sphere by the intersection of a plane that passes through it."

Here we can see how Job 26:10 and Proverbs 8:27 were understood by old English translators.

"Synonyms for circle
Synonyms: Noun
cirque, ring, round, roundel
Synonyms: Verb
compass, embrace, encircle, enclose (also inclose), encompass, environ, gird, girdle, ring, surround, wreathe"

Lets view the definition of "Round" from the Merriam-Webster's Dictionary
Definition of ROUND

"1a : something (such as a circle, globe, or ring) that is round."

So, Biblically speaking, a circle is understood as something that describes the roundness of a globe.

Lets examine another well known English Dictionary.

Collins English Dictionary.

Collins Definition of Circle
Circle definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

In the section "circle in American" we will see how circle has changed in our vocabulary.

"4. OLD-FASHIONED, Poetic
the orb of a heavenly body"

This right here is what you, the reader, need to understand. The word circle no longer is used to apply to a sphere or globe in modern English.

Case and point, from the English Definition of Orb
Orb definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

Take careful note here:

"noun
1. a sphere, or globe
2. a. any of the celestial spheres, as the sun, moon, etc.
b. Obsolete
the earth"

So as English developed so did the word selection and "orb" was no longer used to describe the earth but only the sun, moon and planets. The words "sphere" and "globe"
play a game of tug-of-war in our modern English when choosing a word to describe the shape of the earth.
So the old fashioned poetic use of "circle" and "orb" have gone out of use in English as far as using the two words to describe the globular shape of the earth.

However, as a verb transitive,

"9. to form into a sphere or circle"

So here we see sphere and circle sharing the same sentence in our English Dictionary.

Scrolling down to the "orb in British" this gets even more interesting.

"noun
1. (in royal regalia) an ornamental sphere surmounted by a cross, representing the power of a sovereign
2. a sphere; globe
3. poetic another word for eye
4. obsolete or poetic
a. a celestial body, esp the earth or sun
b. the orbit of a celestial body
5. an archaic word for circle
verb
6. to make or become circular or spherical
7. (transitive) an archaic word for encircle."
So an orb shares the same usage as "circular" and "spherical."

Here is the Definition of Sphere
Spherical definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

Flat earthers claim the word "round" means 2D flat shape. But the English Dictionary defines it as "Something that is spherical is round like a ball." So how many balls are 2D flat?

English Definition of Round
Round definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

"adjective
1. shaped like a ball; spherical; globular
2. a. shaped like a circle, ring, or disk; circular
b. shaped like a cylinder (in having a circular cross section); cylindrical
3. curved in shape like part of a sphere or circle"

So "round is used to describe a sphere/globe which both are described as "circular."

The Conclusion of Circle

Today, in the 21st century, if we are to hold a conversation with friends and in that conversation the shape of the earth is brought up, there are three words that can be used to describe the shape of the earth:

1. Globe
2. Sphere
3. Round

These three words are still used in our daily English vocabulary to describe the globe of the earth.

Words like "circle" and "orb" are just not used anymore in modern English to describe a globe. However, when we study the origin and development of the English language, we learn that in 16th century England, were citizens spoke English, the academic language of that time was French and the language of the English Church was Latin.
The Holy Bible is how the English language was firmly established. Every educated and honest atheist knows this. It was William Tyndale who began the English revolution for translating Bibles. A close friend and collaborator of his, Myles Coverdale, had translated the very first complete Bible ever using some of Tyndale's work, along with Latin and German Bibles for his translation. Isaiah 40:22 would see the English word "circle" used for the first time:

"That he sytteth vpon the Circle of the worlde, and that all the inhabitours of the worlde are in coparison of him, but as greshoppers: That he spredeth out the heaues as a coueringe, that he stretcheth them out, as. a tent to dwell in" (1535 Coverdale Bible).

While Tyndale was in prison awaiting his execution for the crime of translating Hebrew and Greek into English, another friend would visit him in prison named John Rogers. William Tyndale handed off Rogers a package which historians believe was the rest of the OT translated. Rogers soon went to work finishing up Tyndale's work which would be approved by King Henry VIII and called the Matthew's Bible. Isaiah 40:22 would once again be translated using the word circle:

"That he sytteth vpon the circle of the worlde, and that al the inhabytours of the worlde are in comparison of him, but as greshoppers: That he spredeth out the heauens as a coueryng, that he stretcheth them out, as a tent to dwell in" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

In old English, the word " circle was used to describe the roundness of a globe as Strong's H2329 חוּג chûwg as been understood in all other languages before Coverdale and Tyndale. None of these old English scholars were held down to the rigidness of 21st century English (as they lived in the 16th century). And indeed, a globe is circular in shape to the old English translators.
So while 21st century English has become more rigid in how we define "circle," it has also been used in the past to describe a globe. Atheists today want to hold down Isaiah 40:22 to a rigid 21st century definition but they do so with great smugness and arrogance.
Though since the definition of "circle" has changed to fit a 2D shaped object, our Bible translations become outdated.
The old Douay-Rheims Bible is a translation of Jerome's Latin Vulgate. While this translation does lack a little, it does translate Isaiah 40:22 as it has always been understood before the developing of the English language.

"It is he that sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts: he that stretcheth out the heavens as nothing, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in."

Dominic Statham, in his article called "Isaiah 40:22 and the shape of the earth," mentions a list of old translations which used globe or sphere in Isaiah 40:22,

"Various sixteenth century Latin Bibles indicate that medieval scholars understood khûg in Isaiah 40:22 to refer to the sphericity of the earth. For example, Santes Pagnino translated this sphaera, and Benedictus Arias Montanus and François Vatable globus. The seventeenth century Giovanni Diodati Bible also used globus and the eighteenth century Dutch Hebraist Campeius Vitringa used orbis.7 More recently, the Spanish Jerusalem Bible used ‘orb’ and the Italian Riveduta Bible ‘globo’."
Isaiah 40-22 circle sphere - creation.com

Lastly, we have the backing support from verses which use Strong's H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl.
Psalm 89:11,

"The heauens are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundation of the rounde world, and al that therin is" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

And even though the KJV mistranslates têbêl, it does give us a clue about the shape of the earth:

"The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them."

Can a flat 2D earth be full in shape? A globe/Sphere is a full circle in all directions, vertically and horizontally.

"1. any round body or figure having the surface equally distant from the center at all points; globe; ball."
Sphere definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

Prov.8:27 in the Latin Vulgate use the word gyro
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...51-xyDr9m73VyPxzrZ-wssCdKpWm86rZORu-L8CiYgN9Q

While Isaiah 40:22 uses gyrus
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...aCqZAKQgh_6TUfcHBEyZavO4Ch2SWcVDInXa2an6vSZX4

Hence a gyroscope is an instrument which derives from the Greek word guros and Latin gyro/gyrus and in science it is used to navigate planes around the earth.

Science Definition of Gyre
the definition of gyre

"gyre in Science
A spiral oceanic surface current driven primarily by the global wind system and constrained by the continents surrounding the three ocean basins (Atlantic, Pacific, and Indian). Each ocean basin has a large gyre in the subtropical region, centered around 30° north and south latitude. Smaller gyres occur at 50° north latitude in the North Atlantic and Pacific Oceans. The direction of a gyre's rotation is determined by the prevailing winds in the region, with the large subtropical gyres rotating clockwise in the Northern Hemisphere and counterclockwise in the Southern Hemisphere."

Therefore it is understood that chuwg is a vertical circle intersecting a horizontal circle -- a full 3D circle!
Van-Balen-Wolters-Globe-van-Leest-Antiques-1.jpg
 
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Lost4words

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I've also tried in the past to reason with you, but now I usually just watch people who are more informed and patient than I am try to reason with you, and get dismissed in the same way you've dismissed anything I've said. I've said it before and I'll say it again: For someone who still doesn't have his mind made up yet (which you always claim), you sure are committed to the FE idea.

I agree
 
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Jonathan Mathews

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The only people who say the world is flat have never flown around it. Nor have they gone high enough to see it's curvature for themselves. Everyone else says it's round. I am one of them.

If the Earth is flat, who lives on the other side? Who has ever seen the edge of the earth let alone the other side? There is not a human on earth that as ever found the edge of the earth. That should tell you something. There IS no edge.
 
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Dan1988

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The only people who say the world is flat have never flown around it. Nor have they gone high enough to see it's curvature for themselves. Everyone else says it's round. I am one of them.

If the Earth is flat, who lives on the other side? Who has ever seen the edge of the earth let alone the other side? There is not a human on earth that as ever found the edge of the earth. That should tell you something. There IS no edge.
Those who believe the earth is flat are no different to those who believe in false religions.

Most people will believe anything, as long as it's not in the Bible. My friends think I'm mad for believing that the earth is around 6,000 years old.

Secular scientists can't prove any of their claims about evolution and believers can't prove anything to the atheist. The natural default position of the majority, is to place barriers around their comfort zone and defend their beliefs militantly.

The Bible says that none are seeking the truth and all have gone astray. Christ said, "I am the truth" the stars and planets will all pass away but His Word will remain true forever.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Those who believe the earth is flat are no different to those who believe in false religions.
They can be very different, with no such accusations holding water against them.

They may just be fed up with and battling the many lies and errors of government and science, and the issue of flat earth or not is not actually important.

Many already know that government and science often lies. That is the truth, and might be the most important point to understand.
 
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JackRT

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Many already know that government and science often lies. That is the truth, and might be the most important point to understand.

Telling lies is a very human fault but in my career as a scientist I have found that scientists are truthful, certainly far more truthful than, say, President Trump.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Telling lies is a very human fault but in my career as a scientist I have found that scientists are truthful, certainly far more truthful than, say, President Trump.
That is one opinion, and there are others that do not agree with that opinion
 
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SPF

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This is what the LORD says: Heaven is my throne, And Earth Is My Footstool .......
• Isaiah 66:1




DY4co6IVwAAht0p.jpg:large
Unless you think the earth is shaped like a footstool, then you ought to understand figurative language.
 
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The Barbarian

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I think I know what this is really about. Mark Twain once wrote that "faith is believing what you know ain't so."

And for some people, it's a question: "Is your faith in God strong enough to believe something that's completely absurd?"
 
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RDKirk

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DID YOU EVER SEE A FOOTSTOOL THAT WAS A SPINNING BALL?

You think God is just a big dude with actual physical feet that need to be propped up on a stool?

What, do you think His feet get tired from walking around?
 
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JacksBratt

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The only people who say the world is flat have never flown around it. Nor have they gone high enough to see it's curvature for themselves. Everyone else says it's round. I am one of them.

If the Earth is flat, who lives on the other side? Who has ever seen the edge of the earth let alone the other side? There is not a human on earth that as ever found the edge of the earth. That should tell you something. There IS no edge.
Johnathan, I am not a Flat earther. However, you really need to research a topic before you try to refute it.
First, you can fly around a flat earth.. seriously, you can.
Second, NASA has stated that you need to be at a much higher altitude than commercial air craft fly in order to see any curvature. Neil DeGrass smoking Tyson has also stated that we don't fly high enough.
Third, everyone else said that it was flat.. once.. Everyone else said Lemmings ran off cliffs to their deaths... once... everyone has said a lot of things.. once.. that are now proven wrong..
Truth is not a democracy. Millions can be wrong... while one soul is correct.
Fourth, Nobody lives on the other side. Well, maybe that is where hell is.. but, the FE is a plate and we all live on the top of the plate.
Sixth, the edge cannot be reached.. 1/ Antarctica forms an ice wall around the edge of the circular flat earth. The edge is somewhere beyond that in severely cold and harsh conditions. and 2/ There is an "Antarctic Treaty" that protects Antarctica. You cannot just head down there and wander around looking for the edge.
Seven, the "Flat Earth Society" is not a good source to find out about the FE..

Look into Mark Sargent, Rob Skiba, Eric Dubay or any of the speakers at the past and upcoming Flat earth conferences.

Happy research.. just be careful... all.. I mean every single FE believer.. started in your shoes.. Denial... then they researched and couldn't find any proof of a curve or the globe.

So..... be careful.. you may end up a dreaded... Flat Earth Believer... if your not careful.
 
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JacksBratt

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Those who believe the earth is flat are no different to those who believe in false religions.

Most people will believe anything, as long as it's not in the Bible. My friends think I'm mad for believing that the earth is around 6,000 years old.

Secular scientists can't prove any of their claims about evolution and believers can't prove anything to the atheist. The natural default position of the majority, is to place barriers around their comfort zone and defend their beliefs militantly.

The Bible says that none are seeking the truth and all have gone astray. Christ said, "I am the truth" the stars and planets will all pass away but His Word will remain true forever.
Hello Dan1988. I, too am a YEC.. I agree with what you said, except one thing. The bible is a Flat earth book. Look into it....and... many of those that come to believe in the FE... as it turns out.. then conclude that there is only one explanation for the FE and that is that God is real.. they then, even though atheists beforehand... come to Christ.

I don't recommend this as an evangelical tool.. but it is happening... people coming to Christ after being convinced that the earth is flat.
 
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JacksBratt

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Telling lies is a very human fault but in my career as a scientist I have found that scientists are truthful, certainly far more truthful than, say, President Trump.
If your going to start rating liars... you would need quite a scale when you get to the "politician" line up.
 
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JacksBratt

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I think I know what this is really about. Mark Twain once wrote that "faith is believing what you know ain't so."

And for some people, it's a question: "Is your faith in God strong enough to believe something that's completely absurd?"
Didn't Mark Twain also say that it is easier to fool someone than convince them that they have been fooled?
 
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JackRT

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If your going to start rating liars... you would need quite a scale when you get to the "politician" line up.

We could devise a Trump scale --- start with truth as 0T all the way up to 10T as "pants on fire".:sigh:
 
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