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Is the church infallible in Protestant theology?

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by Fidelibus, Oct 1, 2020.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    And we know what "they taught" because we see it in the scriptures they wrote. So for us it is still "sola scriptura testing" just as it was in Acts 17:11 when Paul himself was tested - sola scriptura.

    The flaw in that case is not in the Bible - it is in failure to do the sola-scriptura test. Christ points this same thing out in Mark 7:6-13. "invalidating the Word of God" - via the "traditions of man".


    I have seen Jehovah's witnesses converted based on sola scriptura testing - but I have never seen one convert based on saying "choose to believe what such-and-such a denomination teaches and not what you see the Bible teaching - since that denomination always says they are right".
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    You have free will of course and as they say "to each his own". My point is that the Protestant principle of testing all doctrine "sola scriptura" is the only objective standard.
     
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  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    No rather Gal 1:6-9 that even if "an apostle or an angel from heaven " comes to you preaching something-- you STILL have to test it against scripture - "to SEE IF" it is so. As I noted here #304

    Paul takes the highest most reliable sources known to mankind and says even THEY must be tested.

    Do you view that scripture as not being infallible??
     
  4. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    I often find quite plausible while conflicting interpretations of Scripture with each side acting as if their particular position is absolutely and obviously correct while the other's is wrong- and there's no difference between that kind of certitude and the assertion of infallibility.
     
  5. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    We absolutely do need the input of other believers, other's who've come before us and who trace their faith roots to the beginning, originally derived from the Lord. This occurred, for example, with Paul and the Bereans, and with Philip and the Eunuch. Both needed to hear the truth taught to them as they couldn't determine it strictly on their own with Scripture.
     
  6. The Liturgist

    The Liturgist Traditional Liturgical Christian

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    Actually, because there is no canon written into the actual books of the Bible, the canon is literally a Holy Tradition. It was established by Saint Athanasius, peomulgated throughout the fifth century, and made official in the Western church by Pope (technically Archbishop) Gelasius. So who is to say these books don’t belong? What if Athanasius made a mistake?
     
  7. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    That’s a bit of an oversimplification. It developed in a distributed way over time. But it’s a reasonable question for fundamentalists. Mainline Christians, however, tend to judge books individually. But we don’t claim that any random passage in Scripture has as much authority as any other. I’m not aware of any plausible candidates to be used the way we use the Gospels and Paul. The subtraction of Jude or the addition of some other early book wouldn’t make much difference to us. I think Lutherans take a similar view in theory, though the fundamentalist controversies have pushed conservative Lutherans to a de facto position similar to other conservative Protestants.
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    There is no reference at all to that in scripture. Nothing of the sort "we don't know what scripture actually is yet - we need to wait a few centuries for someone to tell us".

    So notice Luke 24:25 And then He said to them, “You foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to come into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the Prophets, He explained to them the things written about Himself in all the Scriptures.

    45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and He said to them, “So it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

    NT writers never write as if the reader "does not know what scripture is" or "what all the scriptures" are.
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Sola scriptura testing is how "protesting catholics" came into being with a defense that was so effective an entire order of the priesthood was created to try and stop it. To the point that the Bible was on the list of forbidden books.

    So historically the effectiveness of this is beyond dispute.

    And what is the alternative?

    "Why don't you just accept whatever the magisterium in my denomination says" ??? That is not a very compelling solution. Not very objective.
     
  10. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Effectiveness of what? Blind rebellion? The Reformers were right in wanting reform-and that's an ever-necessary endeavor BTW. But not reform of doctrine. And whose Reformation do we pay heed to? Because while they all agreed they wanted freedom from the RCC, they didn't all agree on what doctrinal reform was to actually consist of. They're still arguing between each other about it in the majority of threads on these very forums, all using Scripture. The idea of forbidding bible reading by individuals probably wasn't such an unwise or visionary one at the time considering the mess the doctrine of Sola Scriptura has resulted in. Even if not possible at the end of the day. As it is the RCC promotes bible study now-but also advises it be done in consideration of Church teachings.
    And you should understand by now that our acceptance of the bible, itself, is also largely subjective, as is the acceptance of the pontifications of modern era prophetesses, as an example. Anyway, I would never ask or expect anyone to blindly accept the teachings of any church or philosophy, religion, etc. I was raised Catholic but left the church for over 25 years, never expecting to return. We must be convinced, on our own, before we jump. We must pray, and study, and never presume we already know. Anyway, here're some related teachings:
    1782 Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. "He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters."53

    1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2021
  11. Philip_B

    Philip_B grace upon grace Supporter

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    Clearly in the verses from Luke that you quote refer to scriptures (graphas) in a sense that clearly suggests what we would describe as the Old Testament. Clearly what is less clear is if this refers to the Masoretic Canon or the Septuagint. Clearly what it seems not refer to at that stage was the Canon of the New Testament.

    This of course is echoed in the words of the Nicene-Constantinople Creed were we reference that the Holy Spirit 'spoke through the prophets'. I accept your contention that the NT writers never write as if the reader does not know what scripture is, or what all the scripture are. On the basis of what I understand I would take it to be a reference the the Septuagint.
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    True and it is "in a text" (the Gospel of Matthew) that we would also classify as "scripture". The point is that neither the NT writers nor readers had the concept of "well hmmm I guess we don't actually know what the term -ALL of Scripture- means".

    The fact that centuries later some "other group" gets its own idea of what "clarity" is - on that subject - never comes into play for the first century saints.

    Nobody in the first century was "waiting" for someone to tell them what scripture is. That idea is totally foreign to the NT writers.

    Clearly what is less clear is if this refers to the Masoretic Canon or the Septuagint. Clearly what it seems not refer to at that stage was the Canon of the New Testament.

    Indeed. So also in Isaiah 8: "20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

    Act 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken by Paul - were SO"

    There was never a time when they were saying "nope can't test doctrine against scripture because we are waiting for someone in the 4th century A.D. to tell us what that is"

    Josephus points out in the first century A.D. that the Hebrew canon of scripture had remained unchanged for over 300 years.
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    The protesting-catholics that organized into the Protestant Reformation were following the example of Christ in Mark 7:6-13 as he challenged the magesterium of the "one True nation church" started by God at Sinai - since it had gone-off-the-rails in its "traditions" that were introducing bad doctrine.

    Mark 7
    ‘This people honors Me with their lips,
    But their heart is far away from Me.
    7 And in vain do they worship Me,
    Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
    8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
    9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

    Classic example of traditions of the one true nation church started by God at Sinai - getting hammered "sola scriptura" by Christ -- showing us how it is done.


    errors piled up over the centuries. Uprooting of that pile of errors took place over centuries.
     
  14. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Sure, of course. so we could end up with confusion and more disunity yet.
     
  15. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Except they can't figure out or agree on how its done. The only thing good that came put of the Reformation was the council of Trent and a wake up call to the church. And some good thinkers such as CS Lewis and various theologians who've contributed much as Protestants-and would've anyway as Catholics.
     
  16. FredVB

    FredVB Regular Member

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    I would not say we do not need input about matters of faith from other believers. But they do not all believe all the same things. Who are you then going to pick to believe? We can weigh the things we hear, but I would not say those from others are the final word. The authority on matters of faith is what the Bible speaks to, and we believers should learn how to get all that from it.
     
  17. Placemat

    Placemat Member

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    n/t
     
  18. Placemat

    Placemat Member

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    Is there a 'link' to this article you are referring too, as I would be interested in reading it in full. Thank you.
     
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