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Is the church infallible in Protestant theology?

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by Fidelibus, Oct 1, 2020.

  1. concretecamper

    concretecamper Member of His Church

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    thank you. I hate reading between the lines.
    agreed.
    a properly formed conscience.
    Bible passage please.
     
  2. PloverWing

    PloverWing Episcopalian

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    @garee, I'm having a hard time following the point you're making.

    I see that you object to the word "father". If we referred to the early Christian writers as "early Christians" or "early Christian teachers", would you be okay with that?

    I see that you object to church leaders "lording it over" other Christians. For clarification: Do you object to having ordained clergy altogether? Or is it the abuse of power that you object to?

    Sorry, now I'm really lost. The people commonly called "early church fathers" are a few dozen regular human beings from the first few centuries AD. They weren't disembodied workers with familiar spirits. Can you explain what you have in mind?


    Again, I'm having trouble following your overall point. Could you state it clearly in one or two sentences for me?
     
  3. garee

    garee Newbie

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    I am not against clergy more interested in looking to define just what they are assigned to do seeing they have no power in their earthen bodies of death and must rely on our Unseen Holy Father in heaven.
    In that way the fathers are just as powerless of the pew sitters .

    2 Corinthians 4:7 We have this treasure from God, but we are only like clay jars that hold the treasure. This is to show that the amazing power we have is from God, not from us.

    The word father must be rightly divided or understood. The father of lies. . the father of a brood of vipers called fathers would make it all one thing.

    There is not one word of encouragement in the Bible that would have us call men fathers . The word is reserved for our one unseen Father when it comes to venerating the Spirit that works in those born again from above. .

    The overall point is we are to call no man on earth father or infallible teacher . One is our Good teaching father as Lord and master in heaven

    One teaching father

    Matthew 23:8-9 (ERV)
    “But you must not be calledTeacher.’ You are all equal as brothers and sisters. You have only one Teacher. And don’t call anyone on earth ‘Father.You have one Father. He is in heaven.
    .
    Christians as apostles today (those sent with the word of God) can plant the seed and water it but are considered nothing (no authority) seeing he does the actual teaching making our hearts soft . If he does not do the work of applying His teaching to our hearts called forming Christ in us then we have not been taught be Him as His way he has designed to seek His approval

    Not the approval of men (fathers, kings, princes) that simply opens the way for a Queen of heaven to be squeezed in as if God was a man as us..

    We are warned of those who would try and seduce us we do need a man to teach us by usurping the actual teaching ministry of the anointing or teaching one, Christ. We abide in him as he teaches us. Not a brood of vipers called fathers.

    Studying the difference on how the word father is used can be beneficial. Its not that I reject using the word "father" but how "brood of vipers" one of the terms Jesus used to define fathers .

    Using the word father improperly opposes the gospel in the end making the word of God sola scriptura or as it is written without effect or desolate.

    Calling them "early Christians" would be must safer when rightly dividing the word of truth than calling them early church fathers or early kings.

    The early is someone trying to set a standard in the new testament by creating a division that is not there.

    The church or bride of Christ as one who plants the gospel seed began in the Genesis with Abel the first apostle, martyr. Abel would be considered a father in the proper us of the word.

    Disembodied workers with familiar spirits called patron saints is the product of what some a call ECFs mind set assigned a patron saints by the venerable fathers (brood of vipers) who lord it over the non venerable pew sitter who seek the approval of men seen and not our unseen Father in heaven .

    The ECF's make up part of the legion(3500 and rising) those that rejects sola scriptura the true reforming authority in any generation.

    Venerable mystics another part of the available 3500 . an alternate way to seek help each one is assigned a particular task by the task master called a Pope by some. Called a daysman in the bible.

    They call all things written in the law and prophets heresy so that they can keep the laws I heard it through the grapevine oral traditions of men the ECF's
     
  4. garee

    garee Newbie

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    Yes properly formed or living daily reforming conscience our daily bread .Two witnesses working as one power. The witness of man the gift of conscience .And the witness of God as it is written as that not seen which does work in those who do believe in a eternal God not seen .

    We must be careful how we hear or say we hear God. The father of lies is quick to snatch the seed. Remember God is greater than our conscience. The conscience of mankind is a neutral tool neither good nor evil it is valuable to those who have been born again and are empowered to follow the loving commandments of our Father.

    The conscience is simply a judgment hall it either accuses oneself or excuses sometimes five minutes later. .Because it does not accuse it does not mean a person has God's approval .It, the witness of men is the lesser .The witness of God is greater the . . .powerful one.

    In that way I would offer the prisons are full of those who followed their own foolish conscience. Some say they have no conscience rather than mankind displays one.

    Only Jesus as the Son of man displayed ones conscience perfectly . . "Not as Jesus the Son of man willed but as His Father the one working with the Son . . .providing the power, authority to both will and moves in us, with us making our burden lighter. Giving us a living hope beyond what the eyes see the greater witness .

    It would seem we are encouraged to hear and believe without murmuring when offering the gospel. Not like the example of Noah who knew God was a God of mercy and grace and would pour his labor of love on the Ninevites. God despite his kicking and hoping God would bring down fire on the Ninevites moved him according to the pleasure of his will. we should seek the example of Jesus who delighted in doing the will of the father knowing His Father had the power to finish the work that did strengthen the Son of man Jesus .


    Thousands of Ninevites heard the word and believed as our living God did work in them to both will and empower them to become sons of God as we are today. Noah wanted to die. I think this shows us emphasizing the law that God is not served by corrupted human hands in any way shape or form . He satisfies all needs by the power of His word.

    His word. . . it is Law not theory coming from the conscience of faithless, foolish mankind.

    Philipians2:13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

    The whole Bible as it is written is the teaching authority of the one author and perfecter of our new born again faith .

    1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
     
  5. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    In the Bible we find that Joseph, Elijah, Isaiah, and "father Abraham" are all referred to by the term "father."
     
  6. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    From human perspective- I would agree, but god is the perspective that matters and He showed it was the bible by making sure it became the bible.

    the fact it is in the bible is the proof it is inspired text. You limit the hand of God by demanding mens opinion.

    Why don't you prove it is not authoritative scripture.

    On this Google is your friend. They were basically the same formats



    Well the consensus for the OT is the 2nd century & the OT & NT by the church at end of the fourth century

    Well the written Word points to the Living Word. As Peter said it is a more sure word of teaching.

    And to exemplify what He commanded us to do where did you go?

    right to the bible!
     
  7. concretecamper

    concretecamper Member of His Church

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    can you provide any scripture where Jesus or any prophet talks about a book or what would become the bible?
    can you show me in the Bible where it says Matthew is inspired? Can you show me in the Bible where there is a table of contents showing all the books God inspired?
    I can prove it using the Bible. The Bible doesnt claim to be the final authority for.a Christian.

    What you are demonstrating is that you cannot prove the bible is the final authority for a Christian by using the bible.
    can you provide a link in case some on this thread are incredulous.
    yes, but it has been demonstrated that the written Word is but a fraction of The Word made flesh.
    The Church. Just like Jesus commanded.

    It seems to me you've chosen the Bible to be the final authority. That is fine. Just dont claim that the bible tells us to do that. You've made a personal non-biblical choice.

    The bible is quite clear, The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Not the bible. Jesus gave authority to the Church, not the bible.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2021
  8. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So what do you use as your final authority?

    The epistles were widely circulated and esteemed as the instructions for the church! Books were not teh norm back them. Scrolls and vellum and parchments were!

    Paul declared that teh Apostles were the master builders of teh church with Jesus being the chief cornerstone.

    Jesus commanded th Apostles to pass on to obey all teh things that He taught th eoriginal apostles.

    They wrote them down, it became a book we call the Bible. If that isn't good enough for you- then There is nothing left to say!

    You are free to use whatever you wish (please don't use the bible as you seem it is not authoritative for the church) but I will follow Scripture and we will let god decide who is right or wrong!
     
  9. concretecamper

    concretecamper Member of His Church

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    .
     
  10. concretecamper

    concretecamper Member of His Church

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    What Jesus said, the Church.
    ok
    dont mix the metaphors. Anyway, according to the Bible, Christ and His Chirch are One.
    He sure did.
    According to John, only a tiny fraction of what Jesus taught was written down. Also, the Bible was compiled so that the early Church could have Divinely inspired writings to read at the Divine Liturgy. It was never meant to be the final authority for a Christian.
    You are free to follow your own man made ideas, I'll follow what Jesus teaches through the scriptures.
     
  11. Joseph r godleski

    Joseph r godleski New Member

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    Hrgrndhdb
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2021
  12. garee

    garee Newbie

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    OK ???But the book of Mormon is an authoritative hear? After all no man can serve two teaching masters as Lord is that why you must seek the approval of the Elders hoping they are of the 144,000?

    Many do not abide in the warning before it was closed and sealed with 7 seals .. Now that we can see face to face. . that which is done in part vanishes .

    The last book is still Revelation .I do not know of any sect that would dare try and add a new chapter and call it cannon. . . God's living words , God's tradition (sola scriptura) and the oral traditions law of sinful mankind "I heard it through the grape vine" of Mr. Smith and are still separate books.

    We know no more in part. it revels the book of Mormon for what it is a private interpretation of by Smith.
     
  13. garee

    garee Newbie

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    Pelagius was clearly is false prophet. The dying wage of sin we carry out in the earthen bodies is death. Sin leads to death. We understand where the . . ."You will surely not die look at men and live" . The glory of our unseen God who is not a creature left. It will return in the new heavens and earth. (Revelation 21)

    2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

    earthen vessels= powerless dirt (us)

    The flesh returns to the dust and the temporal spirit returns to the one Father of all spirit life. Those who have been born again after the incorruptible seed of God's word will rise on the last day and receive the promise a new body not made up of the corrupted rudiments (flesh and blood) of this world

    Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    The idea that we will not die comes by seeking after the temporal
    things seen (lust of eye, lust of flesh false pride) .

    Prideful Peter started that kind of "I heard it through the grapevine law of the fathers" that John world not die. . Christ exposed the lie and infallibly informs us that if every time he dispelled a oral tradition of the legion of fathers we would need a bigger world to hold the volumes upon volume that could of been written exposes the lie of the father of lies .

    John 21:22-25 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, "He shall not die"; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
     
  14. Philip_B

    Philip_B grace upon grace Supporter

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    Original Sin was largely promoted in the West by Augustine and those who came after, therefore it is an idea more widely embraced in the Western Church, and not so widely embraced in the East. For the most part most of us do not need original sin, for we have enough of our own.

    I believe that the Anglican Church does condemn Pelagian and Semi-Pelagian Beliefs, and Articles 9-18 widely put forward a position completely out of synch with a Pelagian position, even if it does not name it - not that I am saying that the Anglican Church is Protestant.
     
  15. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    so do you believe that what say Paul wrote as instructions for teh church can be overruled by the church later on? And seeing we have so many denominations if one changesan instruction say like allowing women to be ordained as I am debatin on another thread, is it binding on all denominatiopns or just teh one who overruled Pauls instructions to Timothy and Titus in what to do in the churches.

    Which church? Are ou saying just teh roman Church or individual believers. Are you referring ot an organization or the organism called the Body of Christ?

    So if they were preserved by being written down- do you think they became less authoritative?

    Seems you disagree with Paul and John and the other writers. So you take the Bible just to be a series of nice writings to be read?

    And yet you said teh bible is not the final authority. No you say you will follow it.

    As a Catholic do you believe in purgatory?
    Marys perpetual virginity
    Mary was conceived with out sin? These are official church teachings but never to be found in SCripture. Th eopposite in fact!
     
  16. concretecamper

    concretecamper Member of His Church

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    I believe what Jesus said. Jesus gave the Church authority to bind and loose. He also gave the Church power to anathematize people who dont listen.
    therefore, there can be only ONE Church. I am delighted you brought that up!
    that's a different thread. All you need to do is realize that Scripture doesn't point to the Bible as having final authority. It points to the Church. We can figure out which Church later on.
    according to the Jesus, the Church is Visible, One, and Authoritative.
    no. I am saying that the Bible is not the Final Authority for a Christian.
    I am agreeing with Paul. If you have any Bible passage where Paul says that the Bible is the final authority, now is the time to post it.
    the Bible is inspired text. If the Bible tells me to listen to the Church, I listen to the Church.
    before you make this accusation, you must first prove using scripture that ALL TRUTHS concerning the Christian faith must be included in the Bible. Don't bother, scripture doesn't say anything of the sort. Also, purgatory is explicit in scripture, the other are implicit. But this is for another thread.
     
  17. garee

    garee Newbie

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    The phrase Original Sin is not a teaching of the bible .It makes no biblically sense at all. It was coined by those called venerable as oral traditions of men
     
  18. concretecamper

    concretecamper Member of His Church

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    what are you talking about?
    is there a question or statement here?
    what?
     
  19. garee

    garee Newbie

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    What?

    I would think as a Mormon you are familiar with the law of the fathers or venerable elders oral traditions . I heard it through the grape vine ,the book of Mormon.

    No man can serve two different teaching authorities.

    Again the last book in the bible the book of prophecy is Revelation .

    We are warned of those who would add to the perfect by which we can see our God . . face to face (knowledge to knowledge.) or called faith the unseen to the same unseen . The gospel in its entire entirety.

    The book of Mormon as private interpretation of Mr. Smith came much after Revelation the last. Again is there a law missing by which we could know our living God more adequately ?

    Why go above that which is written .What's the hope?
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2021
  20. FredVB

    FredVB Regular Member

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    Yes

    A church can teach, from what passages in the Bible say, or what is suggested from many passages on something. But it does not mean the church is infallible in that. As any of us are churches are all fallible to. We can and do misunderstand things from what we read. The Bible is not at fault for that. It has the truth, as evidences show. So the best we can do, and should, would be with praying and searching things out in the Bible, as believers with the Spirit of God to guide, and being sensitive to that. It is hopeless for anyone else.

    And where in the Bible is it saying to trust all teaching from a church, and at all that it is infallible?
     
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