Is the church infallible in Protestant theology?

garee

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This is an edit because one more thought occurred to me. You can say that the early protestants shouldn't have listened to the writers before them ... but who do you think you got 'sola scruptura' from in the first place?

I think each word in the bible was inspired by God and has a meaning attached to the words. And the Bible does not contain any private interpretations of men like Origen (any man). That kind of idea would spell out Blaspheming the Holy Spirit. . accrediting the work of our unseen God to mankind seen.

If every word is inspired it would include the cannon (The whole or perfect.).God moving men of old to both will and perform His good pleasure in them.

2 Peter 1:19-21 King James Version (KJV)

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Because the Protestants sought after the Spirit of Christ the anointing Holy Spirit or teacher that worked in them the reformation like the first century reformation(Hebrew 9) it performed its work in the heart of mankind.

If you would look at the two reformations compare them side by side .The first century and the fifteenth century or any time period its easy to see that all cases the law of men (Oral traditions) I heard it through the grape vine tied to make the law of faith (as it is written without effect calling it a heresy so that men might continue to seek the approval of the things seen .The pagan foundation out of sight out of mind. Jesus said they have received their reward (15 minutes of false pride.)

Paul understood who he was to seek after . The same thing men call heresy. therefore rather than the law of the fathers make the law of our God (All things written in the law and the prophets )or called sola scriptura with out effect .it caused them to walk away in unbelief no faith making the law of the fathers without effect. In that way it is impossible to seek the approval of two Good teaching Masters as Lord.

Acts24:13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

They worshipped or venerated the fathers oral traditions as many gods, after the gods of philosophy . or private interpretations as personal commentaries of men
 
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Albion

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We need an infallible teaching authority, So we would know exactly what God teaches.
We call that 'the Bible.'

And we would want to know exactly what God teaches so we can know the truth. And we want to know the truth, because the truth sets us free. And the truth alone brings happiness. If there is no infallible teaching authority then we don’t know if our interpretation of the Bible is correct.
But it is correct. So understanding it is necessary, too, but so would any other replacement for the Bible require the same kind of comprehension in order to get the truth.

For example, if we say that the Pope is infallible in his ex cathedra proclamations, THAT proclamation has to be understood perfectly also or else we're in the same situation you are worried about. And the fact is that there always is going to be some difference of opinion among people when any of these "authorities" is referenced.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Thanks for that . Do you know what Origen's view was on the "law of the fathers". Did he venerate them?

I don’t know. I think the EFC writings are very beneficial to teach us what the early church taught.
 
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nolidad

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We need an infallible teaching authority, So we would know exactly what God teaches. And we would want to know exactly what God teaches so we can know the truth. And we want to know the truth, because the truth sets us free. And the truth alone brings happiness. If there is no infallible teaching authority then we don’t know if our interpretation of the Bible is correct. And If our interpretation is wrong that could lead to bad decisions which bring under happiness in our life.


Well we do have an authoritative teaching authority! It is called the bible! there has never been, nor will there ever be any church, sect, or person who has a total lock on 100% of all biblical issues.

We study to show ourselves approved unto god- not a denomination. We grow and learn and as more and better biblical arguments present themselves we learn to change our minds!

We must also be like the Bereans that Paul commended. We should listen to pastors and teachers, and then search the scriptures to see if what they say is true! Even doing this we sometimes will believe error. God is patient.

I believe in what I believe 100% and will dfend it passionately as many here have seen. but that does not mean I am close minded to change if one presents a better biblical argument. But after 46 years and tens of thousands of hours of studying, it takes a very powerful biblical argument to change my mind.

That is the way it should be for all of us. there will always be division, schisms and other splitting. We are imperfect people when we gather just add more imperfection to more imperfection. People are at different levels fo growth and knowledge so ther will always be many ideas tossed out that are based as much on the old ways of thinking as with the new biblical way of thinking.

That is our heritage, our challenge and how we must labor of followers of Jesus!
 
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Daniel Marsh

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I was just recently reading an article from Catholic apologist John Martignoni, founder of the Bible Christian Society that sparked my interest. In his article he was talking about Protestantism, Church, and Authority. In his article, he pointed out that since no man is infallible, according to Protestant theology, the best possible scenario one can have in a disagreement as to what is or is not authentic Christian teaching between two God-fearing, Jesus-accepting, Bible-reading, Holy Spirit-praying men, is one man’s fallible opinion of what the Bible says vs. the other man’s fallible opinion of what the Bible says. Would non-Catholics agree this to be true?

If you answered yes, what about the church? What authority does the church have within Protestantism? If no individual within Protestantism is infallible and, therefore, no individual within Protestantism has the authority to bind any other individual to their fallible teachings..... what about the church? Is the church infallible in Protestant theology? Does the church have the authority to bind individuals to its teachings?


Since I started this thread in reference to Mr. Martignoni's article, I may refer to said article through out this discussion if you decide to participate. Thank You, and have a Blessed day

No protestant to my knowledge is infallible.
 
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garee

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I don’t know. I think the EFC writings are very beneficial to teach us what the early church taught.

The word fathers (plural) is us two ways in the Bible .One to bless God our Holy Father the other to falsely bless mankind a hierarchy of venerable men

We are to call no man Holy Father of earth. The ECF's violate that law first and foremost .

I would think beneficial to teach how not to rightly divide the word of God (sola scriptura) needed to seek the approval of our unseen father who lovingly commands us to study in order to seek his approval alone by faith. Faith the unseen Glory that works in those born again from above.) The ECF's have another authority themselves. Comparing themselves by and to themselves and not comparing themselves to the one reforming restoring authority (sola scriptura)

2 Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

In that way one is our Father as teaching Lord and Master in heaven .

The same one Father Jesus had when he was on earth in his body of death .(not as I will but as you who works in us to both will and empowers to do the good pleasure of God not seen.

The ECFs is hierarchy of men therefore there reasoning is not of from scripture .They support the idea of men (fathers, kings, and princes) lording it over less venerable mankind .The bible informs us they have received their reward . The abomination of desolation

Rather than worshiping or venerating our unseen Holy Father they worship the EFC's as if that legion was God the Father.

In that way its easy to add a Queen to the government and see no evil in doing so.

Paul worshipped the God of the fathers. And not the ECF's as if they a legion of men made up our father in heaven . they must in order to seek the approval of men seen appose all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura)as the one reforming tool, in any generation

God is not a man. He is our Father that Lords fathers Kings and princes. a hierarchy of men .

Acts24; 13-14 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Jerimiah 44: exposes that hierarchy of men who rather than sola scriptura seek after (we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth) or I heard it through the grapevine, it is an abomination of desolation.

Jerimiah 44:16-17 As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.
 
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Albion

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The ECFs is hierarchy of men therefore there reasoning is not of from scripture .They support the idea of men (fathers, kings, and princes) lording it over less venerable mankind .The bible informs us they have received their reward . The abomination of desolation
It looks here that you misunderstand what the ECFs represent and why they matter. They are not a "hierarchy" "lording it over...mankind."

Rather than worshiping or venerating our unseen Holy Father they worship the EFC's as if that legion was God the Father.
...and no one worships the ECFs.

The Early Church Fathers, so called, are historic figures whose testimony, from a very early time, witnesses to what was believed by the first Christians. That is evidence worth considering when we try to understand how those who were the closest to the original Church, including those believers who were taught by the Apostles themselves, understood the Gospel.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Paul worshipped the God of the fathers. And not the ECF's as if they a legion of men made up our father in heaven . they must in order to seek the approval of men seen appose all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura)as the one reforming tool, in any generation

There’s a big difference between seeing the benefits of the early church writings as evidence of what the early church actually taught and worshipping the men who wrote them. God gave us the church for a reason. Unfortunately not many people know much about the church’s history.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Paul worshipped the God of the fathers. And not the ECF's as if they a legion of men made up our father in heaven . they must in order to seek the approval of men seen appose all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura)as the one reforming tool, in any generation

Paul is an ECF, have you ever noticed how many times he referred to his audience as “my children” in his epistles? You really seem to be inflating the situation of simply regarding the EFC writings as beneficial readings to better understand the early church teachings. I hardly think that is anything comparable to viewing them as “a legion of men who make up our Father in heaven”. Honestly that’s quite a ridiculous assertion.
 
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BNR32FAN

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The ECFs is hierarchy of men therefore there reasoning is not of from scripture

What writings have you read that lead you to the conclusion that these men were a “hierarchy”? I don’t see that in their writings at all.
 
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garee

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What writings have you read that lead you to the conclusion that these men were a “hierarchy”? I don’t see that in their writings at all.

The word father is one of the words the father of lies Lucifer would have mankind believe its all one thing. A warning not to call any man on earth Holy Father helps to divide the two ways the word father is used.


Fathers on earth the things of mankind seen .Father in heaven the one good teaching Master as Lord. Fathers on earth as the things of men that offend our unseen God and lord .

The idea of Apostolic Fathers or ECF's denotes a hierarchy of men just in the same way the word king or princes used below. This is any time you see the three . . "fathers, our kings, and our princes" with the fourth in the background a Queen of heaven .

Jeremiah 44:16 As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee .

Therefore removing or making to no effect the unseen authority as the faith of God labor of love of God and giving it over to; "I heard it through the grapes vine" a law of the fathers, kings and princes in order to make room for a Queen in heaven

Jeremiah 44:16 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

Jeremiah 44:21 The incense that ye burned in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, ye, and your fathers, your kings, and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the Lord remember them, and came it not into his mind?

The idea of Apostolic succession which seeking the approval of men teaching.. . . it does not have a foundation in the word of God.

The word apostle has been altered and a new meaning added .(venerable ones) a hierarchy of men lording it over the none venerable pew sitters .And the hierarchy of mankind is used in more than one of the current denominations or sects.

It would be the same as saying; early kings or princes. Simply another authority other than all things written(sola scriptura) all things written in the Bible "law and the prophets" .The finger of God nothing is attributed to the apostles .

Sola scriptura. . . The law that protects us warns of of those who say we do need an man seen to teach us .The idea of ECF"s simply makes the work of the propmised Holy Spirit without effect.
 
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BNR32FAN

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The word father is one of the words the father of lies Lucifer would have mankind believe its all one thing. A warning not to call any man on earth Holy Father helps to divide the two ways the word father is used.


Fathers on earth the things of mankind seen .Father in heaven the one good teaching Master as Lord. Fathers on earth as the things of men that offend our unseen God and lord .

The idea of Apostolic Fathers or ECF's denotes a hierarchy of men just in the same way the word king or princes used below. This is any time you see the three . . "fathers, our kings, and our princes" with the fourth in the background a Queen of heaven .

Jeremiah 44:16 As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee .

Therefore removing or making to no effect the unseen authority as the faith of God labor of love of God and giving it over to; "I heard it through the grapes vine" a law of the fathers, kings and princes in order to make room for a Queen in heaven

Jeremiah 44:16 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

Jeremiah 44:21 The incense that ye burned in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, ye, and your fathers, your kings, and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the Lord remember them, and came it not into his mind?

The idea of Apostolic succession which seeking the approval of men teaching.. . . it does not have a foundation in the word of God.

The word apostle has been altered and a new meaning added .(venerable ones) a hierarchy of men lording it over the none venerable pew sitters .And the hierarchy of mankind is used in more than one of the current denominations or sects.

It would be the same as saying; early kings or princes. Simply another authority other than all things written(sola scriptura) all things written in the Bible "law and the prophets" .The finger of God nothing is attributed to the apostles .

Sola scriptura. . . The law that protects us warns of of those who say we do need an man seen to teach us .The idea of ECF"s simply makes the work of the propmised Holy Spirit without effect.

It’s the generations after these early church writers that refer to these men as fathers. The early church writers never referred to themselves as fathers. Furthermore the Holy Spirit is still at work even today inspiring men & women to preach the gospel just as the apostles did. The early church writings help us to better interpret the scriptures the way the apostles taught them because many of these early writers were actually taught by the apostles themselves. I don’t believe the Holy Spirit has ceased to inspire Christian writers with the death of the apostles and I believe there are still writers to this day who are writing according to His inspiration.
 
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garee

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Paul is an ECF, have you ever noticed how many times he referred to his audience as “my children” in his epistles? You really seem to be inflating the situation of simply regarding the EFC writings as beneficial readings to better understand the early church teachings. I hardly think that is anything comparable to viewing them as “a legion of men who make up our Father in heaven”. Honestly that’s quite a ridiculous assertion.

Hi thanks for the reply. I see it a little differently. . .

I would offer. . .If we desire to understand what some call the early Church which did begin with Abel the first apostle sent with the gospel and first recorded martyr. . we must search the entire scriptures(sola scriptura) for the conclusion to our new born again faith.

Remember the bride of Christ the church is made up of many lively stones that does form the spiritual house of God (not seen). . again the church not seen

Yes I have noticed that Paul signified as a surrogate womb is used to represent the mother of us all (Galatians 4) as those hearing and believing of the gospel .A work that God works in us.

Paul sufferer. Christ in Paul working with Paul in pains of birth or labor a of love till Christ formed his Holy Spirit in Timothy and therefore Timothy as a new creature was espoused as the chaste virgin bride propmised to her husband of the church, Christ .

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Paul a father when challenged with sola scriptura (all things written in the law and prophets) which is one kind of the use of the word fathers.

It was opposed to a law of men. . as I heard it through the grape vine theology .
That kind of fathers (a succession of men seen) called the Bible a heresy so that they could keep I heard it through the grape vine called a tradition of mankind. .

Born again Paul in affect said, he by it, what they called heresy (God's word) worshiped our one father in heaven. Again by what they did call heresy. The whole Bible)

It seems easy to see the difference between the things of men seen and our Holy father not seen. They a law of the fathers (ECF"s) having no faith that could please God turned it upside down as if loosed from earth and worshiped the legion of fathers ( ECF's) a hierarchy of men.

Acts 24: 13-14 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets
Again not the fathers as God.

The difference between the Jewish law of the fathers and the other on this side of the first century reformation is the name used to usurp the invisible work of our one Holy Father in heaven.

Where they the faithless Jews used the word Abraham, those same kind of fathers on this side of the reformation replaced it with the name Peter. I will offer both my understanding. . and the original with Abraham

It is identified as one of the "think not" commandments .

Matthew 3:9 King James And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones (lively) to raise up children unto Abraham.

Matthew 3:9 (My understanding) And think not to say within yourselves, We have Peter to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones (lively) to raise up children unto Peter
.
 
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BNR32FAN

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It was opposed to a law of men. . as I heard it through the grape vine theology .
That kind of fathers (a succession of men seen) called the Bible a heresy so that they could keep I heard it through the grape vine called a tradition of mankind. .

No early church father ever called the Bible a heresy. They called several interpretations heresy but not the actual teachings of the Bible.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Hi thanks for the reply. I see it a little differently. . .

I would offer. . .If we desire to understand what some call the early Church which did begin with Abel the first apostle sent with the gospel and first recorded martyr. . we must search the entire scriptures(sola scriptura) for the conclusion to our new born again faith.

Remember the bride of Christ the church is made up of many lively stones that does form the spiritual house of God (not seen). . again the church not seen

Yes I have noticed that Paul signified as a surrogate womb is used to represent the mother of us all (Galatians 4) as those hearing and believing of the gospel .A work that God works in us.

Paul sufferer. Christ in Paul working with Paul in pains of birth or labor a of love till Christ formed his Holy Spirit in Timothy and therefore Timothy as a new creature was espoused as the chaste virgin bride propmised to her husband of the church, Christ .

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Paul a father when challenged with sola scriptura (all things written in the law and prophets) which is one kind of the use of the word fathers.

It was opposed to a law of men. . as I heard it through the grape vine theology .
That kind of fathers (a succession of men seen) called the Bible a heresy so that they could keep I heard it through the grape vine called a tradition of mankind. .

Born again Paul in affect said, he by it, what they called heresy (God's word) worshiped our one father in heaven. Again by what they did call heresy. The whole Bible)

It seems easy to see the difference between the things of men seen and our Holy father not seen. They a law of the fathers (ECF"s) having no faith that could please God turned it upside down as if loosed from earth and worshiped the legion of fathers ( ECF's) a hierarchy of men.

Acts 24: 13-14 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets
Again not the fathers as God.

The difference between the Jewish law of the fathers and the other on this side of the first century reformation is the name used to usurp the invisible work of our one Holy Father in heaven.

Where they the faithless Jews used the word Abraham, those same kind of fathers on this side of the reformation replaced it with the name Peter. I will offer both my understanding. . and the original with Abraham

It is identified as one of the "think not" commandments .

Matthew 3:9 King James And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones (lively) to raise up children unto Abraham.

Matthew 3:9 (My understanding) And think not to say within yourselves, We have Peter to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones (lively) to raise up children unto Peter
.

I haven’t advocated apostolic succession nor have I made any reference to it. Early church writings have nothing to do with apostolic succession especially since none of the writers were ever popes. These writings merely explain to us what the church actually taught during these time periods. These teachings didn’t contradict the scriptures.
 
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