Is the Christian God truly moral?

Melange_Thief

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I think I'm gonna love this new forum.  

  
EDIT: Accidentally pressed enter and posted this in an incomplete state. 

Anyways, I hear that God wants you to come to him of your own free will, which is why he doesn't show himself.  If you do not, however, you go to Hell. 

Please explain why this is. 
 

Huldrych

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Today at 10:18 AM Melange_Thief said this in Post #1

I think I'm gonna love this new forum.  

  
EDIT: Accidentally pressed enter and posted this in an incomplete state. 

Anyways, I hear that God wants you to come to him of your own free will, which is why he doesn't show himself.  If you do not, however, you go to Hell. 

Please explain why this is. 

God doesn't show Himself? That hasn't been my experience. I might have never beheld a burning bush, nor seen an angel right before my eyes, but He made Himself known to me in a way that totally convinced my heart that He is.

You then make your choice from there. Actually, you keep choosing, day by day.

Pfürti,
jth
 
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Huldrych

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Today at 10:54 AM Melange_Thief said this in Post #3

I asked why he would send you to Hell if you reject him of your own free will, just like he allows you.

Ah, I see. Very good question. Unfortunately, for the best answer to that, you have to have a good understanding of how God thinks, and that only comes by seeking Him.

Still, one way towards that answer is to take this into consideration:

Rev 4:10 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

And, well, if we're not living up to that, there are consequences to reap.

Another thing to consider, and I think this lies closer to the heart of the matter, is this question: whose will is superior--mine, or God's?

jth
 
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Melange_Thief

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I find it interesting that you need to want to find God just to find evidence for Him. Why is this, and why does it sound suspiciously like an attempt to help convert people?

If God truly wanted people to worship Him, He would present evidence about Himself. If He was omnibenevolent, He wouldn't approve of eternal torture. Maybe temporary torture, but to eternally torture otherwise good people is to be horribly, horribly sick.
 
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Received

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I asked why he would send you to Hell if you reject him of your own free will, just like he allows you.

Becuase Hell is the place for those that will have nothing to do with the reason they were created for.  Can you force a rebel into Heaven?  Certainly not.  Apart from what our pastors like to tell us, Heaven and Hell are not solely places of infinite rewards and infinite punishments; a man can be wicked and accept rewards, while righteous and undergo punishment.  Nay, Hell is a place of immoral people - objectively immoral people, those who would have nothing of free salvation, even though they may be 'righteous' in the eyes of the world; Heaven is a place for people who fit their reason for creation.  It is the ultimate grace and freeom bestowed upon us by God to allow us to choose our eternal destiny.  Anything less than this liberty would be immoral; not the place we end up.

Take this scenario, then.

A man is born. He grows up to be entirely sinless by Christian standards, except for one thing: He doesn't believe in God. Now, is it right to eternally torture this person? BTW, eternal means that he won't ever stop being tortured.

We seem to misunderstand how Hell is used in scripture.  The biblical portrayal uses two words - Hades and Gehenna.  The latter being - if we all know our basic mythology - a place of 'nobodies'.  It is a place you go if nothing else fits your view.  Christ spoke of Hell as Gehenna, which was literally a trash heap Southwest of Jerusalem during His time, and such a place very well may still exist.  I believe both uses of the words carry profound meaning, namely that the souls that will have nothing of the reason they were created for do indeed get what they want, even though they are rendered useless in so doing.  Eternal torture is by no means biblical.  There are references to Hell being a furnace as well as it being place of the 'outer darkness'.  Revelation 20:14 speaks of death and hades being cast into the lake of fire, which would mean, if literal flames are true, that death and hades can literally burn.  But they can't.  Anguish, wrath, gnashing of teeth (which represents anger according to acts 7 and not externally enforced torture as many say) - these are all part of Hell, but we must remember that such a place is self-subjected.  A person only goes there if he rejects his divine right.  And that sounds like quite a difficult thing to do, in my opinion.  But this still doesn't mean - regardless of how little we know in regards to how many may end up in such a place - that there won't be rebels who fight their way to such a place until the bloody end.

The doors of Hell are locked from the inside.
 
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Nice to meet you, I am a thinking Christian.

C.S. Lewis, F.F. Bruce, J.P. Moreland, G.K. Chesterton, seebs, Jesus - all these people have held this position.

I hope I didn't get the false impression that there were different parts of Hell - I was merely alluding to the Hell of the intermediate state - Hades - and the Hell of the final judgment - Gehenna.

I think Hell has gotten a lot of trash talk lately, and I can understand why. But I suppose it's time to teach the Hell of the bible, not to mention a few philosophical points, namely that externally inflicted punishment is moral only insofar as it is positive law - the sort that rehabilitates, which is clearly not what we understand by eternal or everlasting torment.
 
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Smilin

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Yesterday at 08:01 PM Pray4Isrel said this in Post #15

I consider eternal seperation from God to be the worst kind of hell.

Disagreed,

Since I've never personally seen God, and considering what I have
witnessed/experienced during my lifetime...

I'll state that one can experience a personal hell much worse.
 
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Annabel Lee

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Today at 11:25 AM Smilin said this in Post #17



Disagreed,

Since I've never personally seen God, and considering what I have
witnessed/experienced during my lifetime...

I'll state that one can experience a personal hell much worse.

I agree.
 
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Smilin

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Yesterday at 06:41 PM Received said this in Post #11



Becuase Hell is the place for those that will have nothing to do with the reason they were created for

So those of us who never find the reason we were created for don't have to worry about hell then? Is that what your telling me?
 
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Smilin

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Today at 02:38 PM Bruno said this in Post #20

Does any human really know what hell is?

Yes, some humans do experience hell within their lifetime...

Did you see the documentary on 'The Lost Boys'????

Their journey and experience was hell on Earth... IMO.
 
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Received

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So those of us who never find the reason we were created for don't have to worry about hell then? Is that what your telling me?

Pretty much.

Hell is a place for those who are not humans; who are 'remains' - those without enough willpower to control their lusts enough to find objective truth. Your contentment with Hell is rather unhealthy; that is, if indeed you are content with it. And I don't think you would mean it even if you said it. There are indeed times when the mouth rebels against the heart.
 
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Quath

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Today at 11:38 AM Bruno said this in Post #20

Does any human really know what hell is?
To me, life without God would be hell enough. I experienced that state before I found Jesus and I never, NEVER want to experience that again!!!!!

One man's heaven is another man's hell.

Scott (Quath)
 
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Smilin

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Today at 04:23 PM Received said this in Post #24



Pretty much.

Hell is a place for those who are not humans; who are 'remains' - those without enough willpower to control their lusts enough to find objective truth. Your contentment with Hell is rather unhealthy; that is, if indeed you are content with it. And I don't think you would mean it even if you said it. There are indeed times when the mouth rebels against the heart.
/QUOTE]

I wasn't stating a contenment... or lack there of. I was simply inquiring on your point that if one never finds the purpose for which he was created...
they will not wind up in hell.. that is all.

My point is that I believe I'm still on a quest for my purpose. So, by your reasoning, at this point, I have no need to fear hell.
 
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