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Is the Catholic gospel the same that Jesus and his Disciples preached?

Discussion in 'Formal Debate Threads' started by MarkRohfrietsch, Mar 6, 2014.

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  1. MarkRohfrietsch

    MarkRohfrietsch Unapologetic Apologist Supporter

    1. Subject: Is the Catholic gospel the same that Jesus and his Disciples preached?

    TheyCallMeDavid will argue that it is not. Athanasias will argue that it is.

    There will be three posts each (six posts total).

    4. The posts will be alternating with
    TheyCallMeDavid making the opening post.

    5. Time limit between posts will be one week from moderator approval of the post.

    6. The maximum length for each post will be 5000 words for each post in a round.

    7. Quotes and outside references are allowed. Please note that all quotes will fall under the 20% copyright rule.

    8. Tentative start date: Anytime after March 6, 2014.

    Please note that all of the Christian Forums rules apply.

    Peanut Gallery for this thread may be found here: http://www.christianforums.com/t7808869/#post65138252
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2014
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  2. TheyCallMeDavid

    TheyCallMeDavid Well-Known Member

    Hello, and thank you to 'Anth' (his Name shortened) , my Debate Partner as we explore that the Catholic interpretation and teaching of Jesus' Gospel is not the correct one thereby having enormous ramifications . I will be using official RCC Sources to prove so beyond any doubt and will provide the specific reference Numbers and verbatim passages using the latest JP2 (John Paul the second) endorsed Catechism which JP2 said is for ALL to read and understand which would include non-Catholic Examiners of R.C.ism ; since he invited ALL to read the Catholic Catechism, it must be reasonably easy to read and interpret for accuracy and edification.

    Before I begin, I would like to clarify my stand on Roman Catholicism so there are no misunderstandings ; I am a Protestant Evangelical Christian since 1986 and fully support that the Protestant Reformation was much needed to abandon the many formalized apostate/heretical teachings that had come about over the centuries in the RCC. I take a somewhat aggressive approach when exposing the RCC and its teachings showing that over 30 Official Doctrines either nullify holy and trustworthy Scripture or are outright anti-biblical in nature. In the past ive been accused of 'hating Catholics' or bashing Catholics / misunderstanding Catholic Teachings / needing to be a Catholic to understand the Catechism / or 'twisting' Catholic Teachings to serve my own agenda . Out of all of these, the one that bothers me the most is that 'I hate Catholics' which is completely untrue ; what I DO hate are ANY teachings from any Institution that demotes the work of Christ on the Cross and that teaches a different Gospel which cannot save because it has been compromised -- a compromised 'gopsel' means it is incapable of saving a person from their sins which is Gods sole global plan for salvation . Therefore, its not the common Catholic that I take issue with, but, the Teachers and Leaders of the RCC who ask over 1.2 billion of todays Catholics to blindly trust in their teaching in order to be (eventually) saved for eternity , yet they aren't receiving the truth on what it takes for whatever reason . If an Institution is engaged in this deceptive teaching on THE most important of all issues ever to mankind....then I label this as an extreme case of evil since the consequences are so incredibly drastic for all of eternity ------- something that Satan would certainly encourage so his agenda could be carried out to fruition . Additionally, I have enjoyed the personal company of Catholics over the years and have had meals with some of my Catholic customers including Priests, have attended formal RCIA Catholic Classes for Catholics returning home, have attended a few Catholic outdoor Festivals in my locale, and have served alongside Catholics to get the ProLife message out including staging peaceful Demonstrations outside Abortion Clinics. So, I take great offense when someone accuses me of hating Catholic People because I expose their Mother Church to which they belong., and I will be spending hours preparing this Debate so that I can bring Catholics and other interested Parties the plain truth of Gods Plan to be saved .

    So, let us start with the fact that there exists a False Gospel which is void of any power to save according to the Apostle Paul ; here is that declaration by him :

    Galatians 6:6 : 'I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!
    10 Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.
    11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ'.

    The Apostle Paul said that this Gospel Message that saves a person from their sins comes directly from Christ (verse 11 and 12) , it is centered on the GRACE of Christ (verse 6) , and that if this Gospel Message is perverted or compromised in the least...that its purposed saving-effect is thus nullified. According to Paul, there was a compromised 'gospel' that was in circulation back in his day just like there is today .

    Let us examine what EXACTLY this Gospel was (and IS to this day) that was given by Jesus and preached by Jesus and his Apostles so all People can be saved of their sins and fully reconciled to God , for it is spelled out specifically in the New Testament as follows :

    1 Corinthians 15 Paul Speaking : 'Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

    3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.'

    The true Gospel is thus based solely on the finished work of Jesus on the Cross which paid for all our sins / his burial indicating that he truly gave up his life for us on the cross / and his Ressurection proving his Identity , that his atoning sacrifice was fully sufficient , and that everything he taught was indeed the truth which can be totally trusted by Us. Thus, it is a very simple Message of good news ...very understandable... can relate to if we are willing to examine our sins. In Pauls description of the Gospel that saves, it is solely dependent on Christ alone without infusing any extraneous ways , means, or additions to it . If the true Gospel Message involved anything besides , God would have gave that criteria because his very heartbeat is to see ALL come to Christ via The Gospel Message which IS the good news that we can be saved by it and be reconciled to God forever. It is unconscionable that God would leave out details on how to be reconciled to him so we could be assured of an eternity with him ..and of course he didn't . Thus far, we have a clear picture on WHAT the Gospel that Saves IS and why it was given ; next lets explore HOW we can make it ours thru owning it :

    Ephesians 2: 8' : For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast '

    This passage is the clearest passage on why we are saved where the Gospel is concerned . We have been (present tense or finished contract) saved because it is a free gift from God called Grace and there isn't a thing we can do to merit it thru human effort or any extraneous way. God wants it to be something that is freely given as a pure token of his love for us...and so, it is something that can only be graciously received by simply believing it is a freely undeserved gift . Thus the only response left for us , is, to take it based on Faith that all Christ did for us was totally sufficient, totally efficacious to secure our salvation, and fully finished . Finally, Id like to us to look at the PROCEDURE of owning this simple Gospel and applying it to our sin account :

    Romans 10:8 : 'But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”[a] that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

    We see here HOW to apply the Gospel to ourselves by trusting completely in Christs finished work on Calvary ; it is based on THE most genuine decision and act by receiving Christ ...his person and vicarious death.... that allows the finished transaction to take place. It is based on Faith or Belief in Christs Gospel , personally admitting you want it, then applying the merits of Christ to yourself . All based on Christ alone from start to finish ... and received ONLY as a free undeserved gift . Just as someone who gives you a wrapped birthday gift, all you can do is graciously say 'Thank You' for it ; to attempt to do something back in return would certainly offend the Giver who wants it and needs it to be a token of his/her love toward you.

    Once this above transaction has taken place, there is a completion for what Christ has DONE for you and the response you have made which is also DONE . We have a 'Done Deal' , and the Person is declared Saved (present tense) according to scripture and the Person has met the criteria for being redeemed to God/is freely justified in Gods sight/ and Gods wrath has been poured out on his Son instead of on you .
  3. TheyCallMeDavid

    TheyCallMeDavid Well-Known Member

    Here is the assurance God wants us to know and have about the finished Transaction One has just entered into :

    Please read the following scriptures carefully.

    1."for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," (Rom. 3:23).
    2."For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord," (Rom. 6:23).
    3."and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed," (1 Pet. 2:24).
    4."He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him," (2 Cor. 5:21).
    5."If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it," (John 14:14).
    6."Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29"Take My yoke upon you, and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart; and you shall find rest for your souls," (Matt. 11:28-29).
    7."But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name," (John 1:12).
    8."I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly," (Gal. 2:21).
    9."Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law," (Rom. 3:28).
    10."For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness," (Rom. 4:3).
    11."But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness," (Rom. 4:5).
    12."These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life," (1 John 5:13.........................
    ..........and perhaps THE MOST amazing thing is that WE that have truly and genuinely received CHrist and his finished merits actually get the very righteousness of Christ imputed to us . In other words...our sin which he took away for his righteousness so when God looks at us he now sees us as with the same righteousness of CHrist his Son . 13 :

    2 Corinthians 5: 20 'We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[a] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

    6 As God’s co-workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. 2 For he says,

    “In the time of my favor I heard you,
    and in the day of salvation I helped you.”

    I tell you, now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation'.

    Indeed, the Gospel that Saves (now/today/immediately/anytime/anywhere/in any condition/in any environment) , is the greatest free gift that God could ever give Us ..and we cant even take one iota of credit for it . That is.....until we take a look at Roman Catholicism which has a plethora of additional ways 'for (eventual) salvation' , despite the cry that the RCC is trusting in Christ . We shall see that trusting in Christ only GOES SO FAR and that extraneous things get infused into the equation thereby NOT helping The Gospel, but in fact CHANGING IT . If you change it then its not Christs Gospel. Remember what the Apostle Paul said in that a compromised 'gospel' other than the One he and the Apostles preached....does not have any saving value. So , to sum up what the true biblical Gospel of Christ is that was preached by Jesus himself and all the Apostles taking into account the bible passages listed above ...it is this :

    IT IS THE GOOD NEWS THAT A SINNER CAN BE COMPLETELY FORGIVEN OF ALL HIS/HER SINS BASED SOLELY ON THE FINISHED WORK OF JESUS CHRIST ON THE CROSS WHEREBY HIS MERITORIOUS WORK FOR OUR SALVATION WHERE ITS EFFICACY AND SUFFICIENCY WAS CONFIRMED BY HIS RESSURECTION FROM THE DEAD ; IT IS A FREE UNDESERVED GIFT FROM GOD CALLED GRACE WHICH CAN ONLY BE GRACIOUSLY RECIEVED BY ONES SIMPLE FAITH IN WHAT JESUS ACCOMPLISHED . UPON RECIEVING THIS UNTO ONESELF , A COVENANT HAS BEEN ENTERED INTO WHEREBY THE SINNER IS CONSIDERED FORGIVEN OF SINS AT ONCE , THE PERSON IS COMPLETELY JUSTIFIED IN GODS EYES BECAUSE THE REQUIREMENT WAS COMPLETED BY CHRIST ONCE FOR ALL 2000 YEARS AGO , AND THE PERSON IS NOW IN A NEW STANDING WITH GOD BEING SEEN IN THE SAME RIGHTEOUSNESS AS HIS SON . (That is the simple Gospel which comes from God and is based on Christ alone / because of Grace alone / received and accepted by Ones Faith alone --- a done Deal) . After this has genuinely occurred between God and the Individual , the subsequent desire and actions of turning from all known lifestyle sin in addition to wanting to serve God and Others thru charity , doing good, allowing God to work in you to change your attitudes/character/modify ones temperament(s) all in a spirit of intense gratitude for having been saved freely by God ............ begins that persons Christian Walk whereby he is being made holy and righteous and living the kind of life that is pleasing to the Creator --- a life filled with being a useful Instrument in accomplishing Gods plans (A separate process called Sanctification) . It should be followed up with water Baptism which is a symbol of proclaiming that One has been saved and that 'a new Creation' has been started in that Individual ... it is a public testimony that the person has been saved BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS shed for him/her and that the Person desires to walk in a newness of life. This is what God wants for all people on Earth and the Gospel of Christ is the ONLY WAY in which God can be reached in a real dynamic personal relationship -- any other way or form is insufficient . Acts 4:12 says that 'there is no other name under earth by which we must be saved' : By Jesus, because of Jesus, completed by Jesus, for the glory of him .

    I would now like us to consider the difference in the common Terms between what the Bible reported above and what RCism teaches as it pertains to Christs Gospel :


    Bible: God's disposition toward mankind, wherein He expresses His mercy and love, so that the believer is now treated as if he were innocent and righteous.

    Catholicism: A power - separate from God - which is placed into a believer. This power enables the believer to perform works that will earn him or her the "right" to heaven.



    Bible: The instantaneous reception of an irrevocable right-standing before God. Salvation is secured by faith, through the grace of God. It is not given only to those who have lived in a worthy way. Romans 3:23 tells us that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." No, salvation is given to those the Bible describes as "ungodly," "sinners," "enemies," and "children of wrath."

    Catholicism: The lifelong process whereby God and men cooperate in the securing of forgiveness of sin. This is achieved only after death (and/or cleansing from sin in purgatory), and is dependant on man's personal securing of objective righteousness before God; otherwise, there would be no salvation.


    Reconciliation (atonement for sins)

    Bible: All sins are forgiven at the point of salvation, because Christ's death satisfied all God's wrath against sin. (See Colossians 2:13,14)

    Catholicism: Sins are only potentially forgiven, and so must be worked off through a process mediated by the Church and its sacraments over the lifetime of the believer.



    Bible: The instantaneous imparting of eternal life and the quickening of the human spirit, making it alive to God.

    Catholicism: The lifelong process of infusing grace (spiritual power) to perform meritorious works (in part).



    Bible: The legal declaration of Christ's righteousness reckoned to the believer at the point of faith, solely as an act of God's mercy.

    Catholicism: Spiritual rebirth and the lifelong process of sanctification which begins at the point of the sacrament of baptism.

    At this point I think I shall rest with this first introductory post of mine and allow Anth to give answer to the following question and after his response , I will be getting into the specifics using Catholic Resources to support the assertions I have already made (and which I shall be subsequently making) . So, here is the question I would like him to answer and elaborate on :

    Question : It is common for Catholics to proclaim that they are trusting in Jesus and his atoning sacrifice alone for the forgiveness of their sins which they admit comes by way of Gods free gift called Grace .... yet at the same time we see meritorious works and deeds being personally performed to intentionally infuse human attempts into this biblical equation for salvation which is supposed to be an undeserved free gift from God . Could you please give an explanation to what appears as hypocrisy ? Additionally, if God has already given Us this Grace to be saved thru the shed blood of his Son , why is it necessary to try to personally accumulate more graces as supposedly available thru performing ongoing sacraments , and finally.....why do Catholics place their trust in additional means to help eventually achieve their eternal salvation ?

    Thank you, David
  4. Athanasias

    Athanasias Regular Member

    United States
    Thanks brother David for your first post. Now as far as this debate goes I am puzzled on exactly what you want to debate. It thought you wanted to debate the Gospel and if Catholics teach it. It seems you want to debate a number of things. That’s fine with me. But lets debate each on of them separate. If you want to debate the Catholic notion of justification then lets do that. I have actually already done this so here is something you or anyone can read http://www.christianforums.com/t7295925/

    If you want to debate what grace is then lets debate that. If you want to debate reconciliation then fine lets debate that. I will use both Old and New testaments and the writings of the early Church and Catholic sources in all of these. But what do you want to debate here? We do not have the room to debate all of these as you limited us to only 3 post person(which I did not agree to btw). So lets debate each of these individually with many post as there is much you may be surprised by.

    Now whether a non Catholic Christian thinks that the Catholic Church teaches the Gospel as Jesus and his apostles teach if going to depend on what you think the Gospel means. In one sense it would be foolish to think they do after all that is why the “protest” against Catholic apostolic teachings. But in another sense I think most Christians Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox all do teach Gospel at least at the basic level. So what is the Gospel?

    Well the Catechism of the Catholic Church which is a sure concise norm for teaching has a precise definition of the Gospel in its glossary. Which can be found here:

    Catechism of the Catholic Church

    It says : “GOSPEL: The “good news” of God’s mercy and love revealed in the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. It is this Gospel or good news that the Apostles, and the Church following them, are to proclaim to the entire world (571, 1964). The Gospel is handed on in the apostolic tradition of the Church as the source of all–saving truth and moral discipline (75)”

    So the Catholic teaching of what the Gospel or the crux of the Gospel ie the “good news” according to the Catholic Church is that God saved us by sending us his only Son Christ who by his life, death, and resurrection from the dead has been the cause of our eternal salvation. The Good news for all in sin is Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again essentially.

    Is this teaching against the Apostles? Absolutely not.

    In fact I you yourself brought it out just fine when you Quoted St. Paul in (1 Cor15:1-4) when he says:

    “Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures”

    Again not to beat a dead horse but it bears repeating that the crux of the Gospel ie the “good news” according to scripture and the Church is that God loved us so much that he sent his only Son our Lord Jesus Christ and saved us by Christ life, death, and resurrection from the dead. Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again that is the good news. If we believe in Him and hold firm to the faith(by not falling into mortal sin and not repenting as St. Paul alludes to) then we can be saved. So Catholics affirm this wholeheartedly. That is our infallible teaching on the Gospel. In fact the majority of Christians in history and worldwide even today(even non Catholics) affirm this saving Gospel of Christ life, death, and resurrection for our salvation and faith in him.

    So I do not really see what the big deal is. What I do see is that you really do not understand the Catholic faith or Catholic theology at all. . I am a bit disappointed so far because I do not believe you truly have read Catholic sources in context or understood actual Catholic doctrines. I can say this because I have studied the faith in context and I have a Masters degree in Catholic theology and a teaching certificate authorized by the Vatican Congregation for the Clergy and I have taught teens and currently teach adults the Catholic faith on the parish level and we do use them and they generally have none of the problems or false issues you bring up. Why is that? Well because we study the documents and teachings in context that’s why. Just ask any of my students who are studying the Catholic documents.

    Now in no way do you have to trust me but please do read the sources and at least try to understand what we mean instead of reading parts of what we teach from anti-Catholic quotebooks and then only to get ammo. It seems apparent not only to me but to even other protestants and non Catholics I know that you do really believe in a straw man type of Catholicism. That is just unfortunate. They know that as well as I do because although they disagree with us Catholics on some things they do not make the outrageous statements or come to the conclusions that you seem to make.

    I know the quote books you read from ie.. Mr. Chick and his friend that take out of context Catholic teaching(in fact I used to own some of them) and so I know your only getting pieces of what we teach and truly do not understand it. That is a real shame. It is my hope that you will open your heart to at least studying the actual Catechism and Papal documents and read them, the whole thing in its whole context and look up the its footnotes and read them in context too and even open yourself up to reading some Catholic books by Catholic theologians and bible scholars like Dr. Scott Hahn or Dr. Brant Pitre or Dr. Alan Schreck or Dr. Lawrence Feingold, Fr. Mitch Pacwa etc etc. It’s all about context. After all, Catholics in parishes study the Catechism, Papal documents, and other Catholic books by Catholic authors like I have suggested often times on a weekly basis to know what the Church actually teaches so If you really want to know what you reject and oppose then I suggest you do the same or else you will continue to oppose a straw man or a mere Caricature of Catholicism and not the real thing.

    Bishop Fulton Sheen once said
    “There are not 100 people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church…but there are many who hate what they mistakenly think the Catholic Church teaches.”

    The good Bishops words are prophecy for our day.

    I will end by saying that the Catechism you claim to know breaks down systematically the tenants of faith we believe as Catholics. The Gospel then is contained in the Nicean Constantinople Creed that the Catholic Church gave to the world in the 4th century. It defines what I and other Catholics put my faith into for salvation and all the cruxes of it. The Catechsim goes through the whole creed.

    Here is our historical Stand of faith and orthodoxy it is professed every Sunday at Mass

    The Nicene Creed

    I believe in one God,
    the Father almighty,
    maker of heaven and earth,
    of all things visible and invisible.

    I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
    the Only Begotten Son of God,

    born of the Father before all ages.
    God from God, Light from Light,
    true God from true God,
    begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
    through him all things were made.
    For us men and for our salvation
    he came down from heaven,

    and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
    and became man.
    For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
    he suffered death and was buried,
    and rose again on the third day
    in accordance with the Scriptures.

    He ascended into heaven
    and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    He will come again in glory
    to judge the living and the dead
    and his kingdom will have no end.

    I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
    who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
    who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
    who has spoken through the prophets.

    I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
    I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
    and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
    and the life of the world to come. Amen.
  5. TheyCallMeDavid

    TheyCallMeDavid Well-Known Member

    Im quite surprised at your puzzlement since I succinctly layed out what the actual Gospel of Christ is according to The Bible using biblical references , then went on to specifically list the correlating theological terms having to do with Christs Salvation merits for our sin payment which showed there IS a stark difference between what The Bible teaches and what Catholic Theology teaches ; I then finished by asking you 3 very specific questions to answer as a summation .... all of which you failed to address. Why was that ?

    Anth, Im afraid the reply you gave was the typical standard Catholic reply I get and other Protestant Debaters get when confronting the Catholic with the stark differences concerning the Gospel of Christ which saves (present tense) by Christ alone , thru simple Faith alone , because it is of Gods Grace alone and cannot be personally earned/merited. You gave reference to a couple of CCC passages that describe the Gospel of Christ IN A VERY GENERAL (non controversial) WAY along with the widely accepted Nicene Creed recited at RCC Services ... and a cursory read of your reply would have One come away thinking that RCism and the Bible coincide perfectly when it comes to the Gospel and what a Catholic is trusting in for salvation .... almost (if it were possible) to make the Protestant Reformation an unnecessary historic event. So , please allow me to cut to the chase to show that the RCC has a different gospel that greatly varies from the Biblical Gospel that Jesus and his Disciples taught , and ill use specific RCC official doctrinal references and in so doing pull back the covers on what lurks underneath as a reality in nullifying the real Gospel of Christ .

    As has been shown using the Biblical text , The Gospel of Christ that saves a Persons from their sins is based on Christs completed atoning merits alone / received by Faith alone since God calls it a free gift and so it can only be graciously accepted by belief / because its by Gods Grace alone which is undeserved --- and most importantly....THERE IS NOTHING ELSE BESIDES THIS THAT IS NECESSARY for One to be saved . Sadly in RCism, there is MUCH that is added and infused to this simple Gospel via a plethora of extraneousities which I shall highlight now bearing in mind that anything that changes Christs Gospel is , no true Gospel . It is logically impossible for a Roman Catholic to truly believe the Gospel that saves and at the same time to believe the tenets of Catholicism when we consider the following actual Catholic Teachings ; I shall take each with my brief comments following , and if I have misinterpreted anything Im sure you will correct me ....although JP2 announced the Catechism should be read by anyone which means it is readily understandable :

    1. We ARENT completely justified by what the Savior did : "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema." (Canon 14) . and...... "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed," (Canon 12, Council of Trent) and...... "No one can MERIT the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can MERIT for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods," (CCC 2027) ,

    Comment: Here we have a flatout denial of the true Gospel of Christ in no uncertain terms. The Bible (as I listed in my first post) says we are completely justified by the finished work of Christs atoning merits at Calvary . Being justified means we are made right in Gods Eyes because Christs sacrifice was totally sufficient --- yet this Catholic Canon says otherwise and condemns anyone who are say he is fully justified by what Jesus did. In RCism, Jesus only 'opened the door' or kickstarted Justification and its now up to the Catholic to finish the job by what he can personally contribute and surround his/her life with sacrament participation and other hoop jumping madeup inventions commonly referred to as added 'church traditions' . Even though Jesus shouted 'It is Finished the sin debt has been paid in full' from the cross...to the RCC , it wasn't enough to make us right in Gods eyes so Jesus' work only went so far. The above RCC Teachings violate the finished Gospel of Christ which has to be free to us and is based on a completed plan of salvation which Jesus was sent from Heaven to fully accomplish . But to the RCC, he came close but not quite enough .

    2. The RCC can save . CCC 846 " How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

    Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it." .....and...... " The RCC is the visible sacrament of salvation" --- quote by Fr. Tom Forrest, JP2's personal Assistant.

    Comment : The Bible never remotely says we must go thru a Church for Salvation , but that salvation is a free gift directly thru Jesus Christ and going thru HIM to get it -- there is no intermediary process or Entity to get it . It is Jesus that offers this salvation at ALL times at ALL locations and in ALL circumstances . The RCC is NOT a sacrament of salvation nor is any other Institution on earth, for it is only thru Jesus himself and the true Gospel call us to only BELIEVE in what Jesus accomplished , period : Romans 6:23 , Acts 4:12 Romans 3:36 . And when you do, you therefore pass from death unto eternal life (present tense) per John 5:24 explicitly. Adding a requirement to get salvation by needing to go thru an Institution violates the true Gospel which requires simply faith alone to secure it and, at any present moment in time . Demanding One goes thru an Institution, has cult overtones to it because it keeps people entrapped to legalistic demands .

    3. The water of Baptism can save. CCC1257 " The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacraments" ....and...... CCC 985 "Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of the forgiveness of sins: it unites us to Christ, who died and rose, and gives us the Holy Sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments". ......and.......CCC 1213 "Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua), and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word".

    Comment : The Lord never affirmed that water Baptism was necessary for salvation, for, salvation is solely because of the finished merits of Christ crucified only and according to the real Gospel, it is received by BELIEVING on the name of Christ because of what HE did and not a personal work or endeavor which we could do , per John1:12 . Further ONLY Christ can forgive sins and its by his BLOOD shed that we have remission of sins, per Ephesians 1: 7 explicitly. The forgiveness of sins is based solely on the true Gospel and in this true Gospel there is no mention whatsoever about performing a work to get saved because the Gospel is all about what Christ DID and not what we can offer up for our salvation. No one could be saved thru water flowing over ones forehead and Baptism is never required to connect us to an Institutional Church Body -- the Bible encourages us to be water Baptized as a proclamation that we have accepted Christ and that we HAVE BEEN saved and are a new creation by believing on the shed blood of Christ which is the ONLY way to be saved --- and that is the true Gospel that saves (nothing external of that) .

    4. Ones personal good works can save. CCC 837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart' ".

    Comment : The RCC teaches that one must continually perform good works in order to be saved . But the true Gospel is not about Us performing good works to be saved, but it is based on what Christ alone DID as a finished payment to be saved. Performing good works according to the Bible, is always something which follows having gotton saved by BELIEVING on what Christ did on calvary thru the theological term called sanctification which is allowing God to work in your heart to transform you into a new creation in Christ , so, good works are the evidence that a true genuine salvation conversion took place in addition to the leaving of wordly lifestyles . Good Works TOWARD salvation is a violation of the true Gospel that saves because the true Gospel is only about what Christ DID for us as a free undeserved gift from God. , per Ephesians 2: 8-9 and Ephesians 2:10 which specifically states 'We are saved UNTO Good Works (saved to do Good Works afterward by being a changed Person) . If we add one iota of a work to the finished true Gospel of Christ , then it is no longer the true Gospel and it has become compromised .

    5. Performing sacraments can save. CCC 1129 "The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation. "Sacramental grace" is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. The Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. The fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior"

    Comment : There are 7 sacraments in the RCC which allegedly are necessary for salvation and since its the RCC that offers these , then its the RCC that one would have to go thru to get them. Performing sacraments requires the work of personal motivation to do them ...but the true Gospel is all about CHrist FINISHING salvation by his atoning sacrifice being totally sufficient in Gods eyes leaving nothing for us to contribute to. Thus, the performing of RCC Sacraments are nothing but doing more good works thru personal effort that is being expended to get something in return. This violates the true Gospel because the true Gospel that saves is only dependent on what Christ accomplished for us . It must be taken as a free undeserved gift and not trying to do something to get additional salvation 'graces' thru performing something by human means. Isaiah 64:6 declares that our righteousness is like filthy rags to God......therefore, trying to be righteous TOWARD our salvation is a null and void proposition . Only what Christ DID can saves us and not what we can DO
  6. TheyCallMeDavid

    TheyCallMeDavid Well-Known Member

    6. Mary can save. CCC 969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix". ................and.............CCC 494 "At the announcement that she would give birth to "the Son of the Most High" without knowing man, by the power of the Holy Spirit, Mary responded with the obedience of faith, certain that "with God nothing will be impossible": "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be [done] to me according to your word." Thus, giving her consent to God's word, Mary becomes the mother of Jesus. Espousing the divine will for salvation wholeheartedly, without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and to the work of her Son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with him and dependent on him, by God's grace.

    As St. Irenaeus says, "Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race." Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert. . .: "The knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith." Comparing her with Eve, they call Mary "the Mother of the living" and frequently claim: "Death through Eve, life through Mary".

    Comment : According to the Bible, Mary has never had anything to do with the salvation process. Scripture says that ONLY JESUS is whom we are to be saved by per Acts 4:12 . The true Gospel of CHrist says nothing of Mary because salvation can only come thru the shed blood of Christ on calvary . Mary was a very valueable instrument of God in bringing the Savior into the world and caring for him into adulthood, but Mary is not linked in the salvation process in the least. In fact, that is blasphemy and demotes the person of Christ her Son . Yet we hear from Catholics saying :'I praise Jesus AND Mary ' or 'I thank Jesus AND Mary' as if both are inseperately linked in the true Gospel that saves. They are in fact separate and it must grieve Mary to see undue worship, dependence, and adoration given her by the Catholic Community on earth. John 14:6 states that JESUS is the only way and that no one can have eternal life except thru HIM alone ; its because THAT is the true Gospel that saves. The SAVIOR of the world is Jesus alone and by his blood alone. Mary shed no blood for the remission of sins , and going thru enormous emotional pain and suffering to see her Son crucified is NOT efficacious toward people becoming saved from their many sins. Neither is Mary a Recipient of all Prayers, Mediatrix, Queen of Heaven, Intercessor, or saved from birth ------- these are all madeup traditions of the RCC which serve to diminish the finished work of her Son on the cross / demote the person of Christ / and to have abilities which only God himself has --- ALL of which serves to violate the true Gospel which is , again, based solely on what Christ did and not thru trusting in what Another (Mary) can do for us.

    7. Others can help us get saved. CCC 1477 "This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission the Father entrusted to them. In this way they attained their own salvation and at the same time cooperated in saving their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body".

    Comment : The Communion of Saints teaching is perhaps one of the most aggregious heresies of the RCC yet nearly every common Catholic isn't aware of it ; It indicates that deceased faithful Catholics including Mary herself have deposited their many works, deeds, righteousness, etc...into a fanciful common Church Treasury whereby currently living Catholics can draw from and apply to their own salvation account. Therefore, Others we are told can actually cooperate in getting us eventually saved proving that the works and deeds of Roman Catholics are (allegedly) meritorious in nature to help not only their own salvation cause, but every other living Catholic. If this were true and possible, then the sufficiency of Christs atonement is greatly diminished because it wasn't enough to save us / there is another way to help us get eventually saved / and the true Gospel which is Christ from start to finish based on simply faith from start to finish (precisely as Romans 1:16-17 states), is nullified.

    8. Praying with Beads faithfully can save and Mary will see to it. The 'Promises' of Mary Fifteen rosary promises - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

    Comment: The Rosary is used in keeping track of prayers using 'special' beads. There are 15 'Promises' Mary gives but i shall address just number 5 and number 10 in particular out of the total mentioned in the site provided.
    Number 5 indicates that Mary has the distinct power to prevent someone from perishing if they use the Marion Rosary. Number 10 allegedly gauranteeing a higher standing or reward in Heaven according to 'Mary' if the Rosary is faithfully used. These have to rank amongst the epitomie of heresies based on just a cursory understanding of the Bibles New Testament of ONLY God himself having such power and reward giving capabilities . According to the site, a well known Cardinal and Arch Bishop of N.Y. are among those who promote this heresy. The Rosary is also tied to the Apparitions of ' Mary ' (a false Mary) for Catholic consumption and trust , herewith : Marian apparition's claim - Mary is a Savior . This site examines 4 separate Marion Apparitions which took place and what the Apparition had to say , namely, that Mary IS a Co-Savior .... teachings emanating from the obvious pit of hell to draw people away from Jesus and the true Gospel that saves . Something that is deceitful in content yet mystically appealing to the senses .

    9. The 'Head of Christs Church on Earth' says Mary can save . This public prayer for the Marion Year was given by JP2 and is a prayer TO Mary asking things FROM her : THE MARIAN PRAYER OF

    To you, Mother of human family and of the nations,
    we confidently entrust the whole humanity,
    with its hopes and fears.
    Do no let it lack the light of true wisdom.
    Guide its steps in the ways of peace.
    Enable all to meet Christ,
    the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
    Sustain us, O Virgin Mary, on our journey of faith
    and obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation.
    O clement, O loving, O sweet Mother of God
    and our Mother, Mary.


    1. Mary, not God alone, being in charge of the whole of humanity.
    2. Mary, not God alone, being trusted with every persons hopes and fears they have.
    3. Mary 'enabling' all to meet Christ instead of the Holy Spirits convicting work in ones heart.
    4. Mary 'obtaining' for us the Grace of eternal salvation instead of the finished work of Christ on calvary which gets us Gods mercy for eternal salvation.
    5. Mary will 'sustain us' thru our lifes travels instead of God alone who is the only One capable.

    What should we trust ? : The total impossibilities of merits coming from the Catholic Mary by being elevated to Godhood as officially pronounced from an 'infallable' Pope to the masses....or....the infallable/inerrant Word of God which Jesus said is THE TRUTH , John 17;17 . Elevating Mary to a Person capable of obtaining the graces of eternal salvation, is not the true Gospel . And a compromised 'gospel' cannot save. Neither can Mary or the many other ways and means that the RCC has invented over the centuries which now rightfully makes this false Church completely apostate and in fact, working against the cause of Christ and Gods global plan to see people really get saved .

    Jesus would have to be deluded to hand over his authority to an Institution that denigrates and nullifies the Gospel of Christ ........... Gods only method of eternal salvation , and repeatedly gives true biblical Christianity a black eye at every turn. But alas, it does have a secular Mass Media fooled and entertained with the finest of silk garb being paraded around making for a 'wow' factor on the TV Nightly News .

    My appeal is to all people who consider themselves Roman Catholic ; What ive posted above is what your RCC teaches and I gave the exact RCC official references from the latest JP2 endorsed Catechism so I cant be accused of 'lying' . They may have come as a big surprise to you because your Church expects and even demands that you as a Catholic submit your total will and intellect to the teaching Majesterioum of the RCC (an actual Canonical Law) , and not question it. PLEASE ......look to THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST that was given to save you , present tense, from your many accumulated sins.., and not to a Church that has you performing by way of personal efforts thru the legalism of doing religious things . The practicing of religiousity is void of the power to save. That is reserved for the Gospel alone based on Christs finished merits alone so you can be made right in Gods eyes NOW in this life so you 'Do not die in your sins' as Christ kept telling people not to. Receive The Gospel that saves from all sins NOW....and don't trust in a 'purgatory' which has you dying in your sins for later alledged 'cleansing' . All the cleansing took place on a cross for you and it was finished by Jesus for you. This is the free gift that God has and wants for you...and it must be received as such otherwise you are still dead in your sins. In closing, here again is the simple straight forward Gospel of Christ which Jesus and his Disciples taught was required to be saved so Heaven can be yours : 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 NIV - The Resurrection of Christ - Now, - Bible Gateway . Note that it is fully centered around CHrist and his finished merits from start to finish. And it becomes effectual to you based on pure simple acceptance/faith from start to finish because it is a FREE GIFT called Grace from God : Romans 1:16-17 NIV - For I am not ashamed of the gospel, - Bible Gateway . Please read them both because the real Gospel ive talked about ISNT based on 'MY' interpretation but on what the clear Word of God says ; its understandable to all who reads it because Gods way is to get people into Heaven with him as simply and easily as possible . Please remember that entrance to Heaven will be based on what you do with this Gospel ; no Church Institution will be standing behind you...it wont matter what your Family religious heritage was , and it wont matter what the 800+ page Catechism said --- only what the Gospel that Saves said and whether you freely received it as a Gift, and didn't try to earn what Jesus fully completed for you on the cross. Will you please allow Jesus to lavish his love and grace on you by what he wants to be a free undeserved gift ... the very surrender of his life for your eternal life in heaven ?

    One must ask Why doesn't the RCC teach this simple real Gospel that the Bible so clearly illustrates will save a person of their sins so they can go to heaven forever (?) How can it be so blatantly rejected by adding lots more to it (?) .

    Thank you. David
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2014
  7. Athanasias

    Athanasias Regular Member

    United States
    Post I of II.

    I have doubts I can answer all the objections you just gave with my limited post. If justification is what you wanted to debate then you should have just been honest and given me plenty of post to answer you Now it’s a joke to throw all those things out and expect me to be able to answer each one in only 2 more rounds. In fact its known in the debate world as buckshot. In stead of sticking to the topic at hand you rattle off all kinds of problems you have. Buckshot goes all over the place and then you expect someone to answer each objection within a small time frame or written frame. That’s slick but I will not let you get away with it.. Each one of those can and should be debated in a separate debate with many rounds. So here is my offer to you. Lets see how well prepared and honest you are. I will debate every single one of your objections each in its own debate which will have many more then 3 rounds to explain. I will use all the Catholic documents you misquote too and I will use scripture and the early Church and actual sources from Popes. What do you say about that? It may be 10 different debates but then I can really do justice to your false premises and misconceptions.

    Now on to doing what I can to answer your objections. Lets take each one.

    #1 First of all its not RCIsm. That’s just derogatory. Shame on you! It’s not even RC. You need to get it right if you want to dialog. It just the Catholic Church. Not the Roman Catholic Church. I bet you have no idea that we have many Catholics united to us who are not Roman at all. We have 21 Eastern Catholic Churches too such as the Syro Malabar Catholics etc who are not Roman and yet united to this teaching. Our Church is truly Catholic both east and west encompassing all nations(Matt 28:19-20) . So please use the correct terminology when talking about my church or you will make your self look more ignorant in the eyes of those who know better. If you called a Maronite or Byzantine Catholic a Roman Catholic they would be quick to correct you and look at you like your from Mars.

    It looks to me like your disagreement with Catholics really is not about whether Christ bloody work on Cavalry is finished but rather how that work is applied to mankind in time and space personally. This is our disagreement. Now if you actually read the council of Trent your quoting in its historical, immediate, and theological context and read Catholic scholars on this such as Jimmy Akin, Pope Benedict XVI, and the Catholic Churches ecumenical dialogs with Lutheran all Found Here: CT06

    Righteousness and Merit

    Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

    You will discover that we do teach we are saved by Gods Grace alone through faith. You need to know what Catholics teach on this. When Trent used the term “faith alone” in the 16th century it condemned not every kind of “faith alone” but rather the kind of faith alone James 2:24 condemns ie intellectual assent alone(even demons have that kind of faith and it does not saved them) as opposed to the Catholic and Pauline teaching of Faith, hope, and charity(1 Cor 13: 2,13) . Pope Benedict XVI in his general audiences in 2008 even made this clear as he said

    "Luther’s expression sola fide is true if faith is not opposed to charity, to love" (Wednesday Audience, Nov. 19, 2008) Here the Pope a express statement that Catholics can use the terminology faith alone if they mean what St. Paul said in (Gal 5:6) namely that it’s a “Faith working through love” that saves us.

    As to the term Merit and how to understand that you also need to read the Catechism too see there are different types of merit that Catholics speak about and mankind itself ultimately cannot merit strictly anything.

    Catechism of the Catholic Church - Grace and justification

    “2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

    2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

    2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."60 The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God's gifts."

    Merits in the Catholic understanding simply mean the doctrine of rewards. These rewards are based on the finished work of Christ and His grace working through us and his promise to us in revelation. They are his free gifts. Any work we do are his free gifts working in us and our mere cooperation with that grace and as the result of his grace and when he rewards one with eternal life based on that He is crowing his own handi-work that He did in us as St. Augustine would say.

    Scripture shows that God gives humans the grace and ability to live properly and do acts that please him(1 Thess 4:1, Col 1:10). God grants His people initial salvation apart from any works and gives His life-saving grace to his Church(Eph 2:5-9). Once a person reaches initial salvation and has received Christ’s grace the Lord commands that a person must work out his own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in them to both will and do(Phil 2:12). God commands us to walk in the works that he created us for(Eph 2:10). Sometimes God chooses to reward these works if they please him. Jesus told his people that their righteousness must exceed the scribes and the Pharisees if they wish to see heaven(Matt 5:20). Christ also instructed His people to avoid vain practices and to pray in secret so they would receive a reward from the Father(Matt 6:1-4). The Father would see the works His son commanded His people to do and be pleased with His people, and because of His promise He would reward His people. This is a great example of Merit. Christ indicates to the Church that eternal life is also a reward. In Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus speaks of the final judgment of heaven and hell. For those who clothed the naked, visited the sick, and fed the hungry were rewarded with eternal life. For those who did not suffered eternal punishment. For faith without works is not enough(James 2:14-17). Works must be accompanied for final salvation if a person is able to do them.

    Jesus is completely consistent with this teaching all through the new testament. Consider these two Biblical passages:

    “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment”(Jn 5:28-30).

    “But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury" ( Rom 2:5-8).

    "Whatever your task, work heartily, as serving the Lord and not men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward; you are serving the Lord Christ"(Col 3:23-24).

    The key to understanding the Catholic view of final salvation is simple. Scripture shows us that apart from Christ we can do nothing(Jn 15:5) but with the grace of Christ we can do all things(Phil 4:13), which includes meriting eternal life(which means receiving a reward based on his grace working in us and His promise). For it is the grace of Christ within us that enables us to work for God’s pleasure(Phil 2:12-13) and He has promised to reward our good works us with eternal life if we are faithfully obedient to Him(Matt 16:27, Matt 25:31-46, Jn 5: 28-30, Rev 22:12, 2 Cor 5:10, Gal 6:6-10, Rom 2:5-9 )

    #2 ) Now as to the Church being necessary for salvation. This is absolutely true and very biblical. In fact I know even protestant Calvinist Christians who would agree with me here. It is a simple fact that Jesus established His Church to teach and preach and administer Gods sacraments to bring others to salvation/justification. This involves mediation. Do not be afraid to admit this. Christ uses his supernatural Body on earth, the Church, to convey salvation on others. Here is a prime example:

    “For, "every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved."
    But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? And how can men preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach good news!" But they have not all obeyed the gospel; for Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.”(Rom 10:13-17)

    Christ established His Church(Matt 16:18) to bring others to salvation by hearing teaching and preaching so they can respond to it(Rom 10:13-17), and administering the sacraments of baptism(Matt 28:19-20, 1 Peter 3:21) and the Eucharist which forgives sin( Act 22:16, Matt 26:28) and the sacrament of confession when Christians have gone astray to so God can re- justify them bringing them, to reconciliation with himself(Jn 20:21-23, 1 Jn 1:9 ) by Christ grace. Each of the sacraments aplly the graces of the paschal mystery or the finished work of Christ to the believer in time and speace. So I have no idea how you cannot see this. Its all over the bible and the early Church that the salvation comes through Christ Church. Naturally then the Church that Christ established that He would bring salvation through is Catholic or universal ie ..Encompassing all nations(Matt 28:19-20).
  8. Athanasias

    Athanasias Regular Member

    United States
    Part II of II for my response:

    # 3 You objected to water baptism being able to save. That seems really odd to me. Again I think our disagreement here has to do with how the paschal mystery is applied to mankind in time and space. For you its applied by faith alone. For me and many other Christians such as Lutherans and Anglicans and Eastern Orthodox its applied by grace through faith and the sacraments such as baptism. How on Earth can you deny that God saves us through the sacrament of Baptism when the bible plainly says this:

    “For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ”( 1 Peter 3:19-21)

    I am mean how do you deny what the bible says so plainly namely that baptism saves one. How does it save one? Well how did the waters saved those eight persons by washing away the sin(Act 22:16, Act 2:38, Rom 6:1-12, Eph 5 :25-27, Ez 36: 25-27) and recreating the world ie a new birth to the world. This is exactly what happens at the sacrament of baptism to each person as through this water the Holy Spirit Himself applies the graces of the cross Christ won for us personally to us causing us to be reborn and cleansed thus saved initially as St. Peter says.

    Here is a formal prophecy of Baptism: “I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances. “(Ezekiel 36:25-27)

    This prophecy is fulfilled in what happens in Baptism as Pope St. Peter tells us: “"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”(Acts 2:38)

    It is the sacrament of baptism that brings about initial salvation/justification and sanctification(Titus 3:5-7, 1 Cor 6:11) as we put on Christ through this sacrament of Baptism(Gal 3:27). Christ gave His Church this great sacrament to cleanse her(Eph 5: 25-27). It is normatively necessary for salvation in the new covenant (Mark 16:16, Jn 3:3-5)

    #4 Mary and the Saints and how they help us get saved. There are principles behind these prayers and teachings that you need to be aware of. It may shock you that other people can participate in our salvation but I do not know why that would be such a shock to you. As I mentioned earlier preachers participate in the salvation of others by preaching the word. So there is a sense where human beings can and do participate in the salvation of others St Paul talks about it in (Roman 10:13-17) but also Paul even says he can save too in this sense:

    “To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.”(1 Cor 9:22)

    He even suggest others can participate in their own salvation and others salvation by holding true dogma:

    “ Take heed to yourself and to your teaching; hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers. (1 Tim 4:16)

    What this shows us is the principle of cooperation with God so that He may ultimately bring about salvation to others. That is what we mean in regards to Mary and the Saints saving others. They cooperate in some sense to save us. So sometimes in the prayers or other places we use language like scripture does that suggest this and ask them to save us in this sense ie the secondary sense of cooperation with God as it is Him alone that ultimately saves us. This by the way is a authortitative infallible teaching of the Church and Pope John Paul II talked about Jesus being the only Savior in the ultimate sense in his Papal encyclical Redeemer of Man found Here:

    Redemptor Hominis, Encyclical Letter, 4 March 1979, John Paul II

    He says “Our response must be: Our spirit is set in one direction, the only direction for our intellect, will and heart is-towards Christ our Redeemer, towards Christ, the Redeemer of man. We wish to look towards him-because there is salvation in no one else but him, the Son of God-repeating what Peter said: "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life"(Redeemer of Man 7)

    So you have to understand the context of his prayer. In context the Pope and Catholics believe that Christ is the only Savior in the ultimate sense and we look to Him but like St. Paul shows us, others too can participate in that salvation and bring us to salvation in Christ. We believe this is what Mary and the Saints do chiefly by their heavenly intercession. It seems clear that saints intercede for us(Rev 5:8, 2 Macc 15:12-14). This is also a very Jewish understanding as the Jews would go to the their saints (Tzaddiks) and ask deceased ones for their intercession too and did not see this as a violation of Gods laws because they were one body(this is the same as Paul teaches about Christ one Body the Church): See here:


    For Mary especially her role is very important because she does 2 things and fulfills various types from the old covenant. 1) She fulfilled the role of the New Eve and unlike the old Eve in the old covenant that rejected God’s plan , Mary the Second Eve, accepted Gods plan and said yes or gave her full submission or fiat to God(“may it be done unto me according to your word”) to participate in bringing Christ who is God, salvation, and all grace to the world(Lk 1:38). This is what St. Irenaeus means when he said she loosed the knot of sin Eve bound on us that you quoted. Its important to realize the early Church saw this easily. 2). She also fulfills the role of the Davidic Queen Mother as Catholic scripture scholars and early Christian saw. All Davidic Kings had Queen Mothers. The Queen mother would sit at the kings right hand, the King himself would venerate her and she would often plead or intercede on behalf of the community as seen in (1 Kings 2:19-20). Remember all Davidic kings had queen mothers. Jesus in the new covenant Matthew tells us is the Son of David(Matt 1:1) and he is our King of Kings(Rev 19:16). Naturally Mary would be his Queen Mother who sits at his right hand and intercedes for the Church. In fact we see her acting like a Queen mother when she first intercedes for the wedding party at Cana and prompts Jesus to do his first miracle even when it was not his hour(Jn 2:1-11) and John again later in the book of revelation makes it even more clear that She is the Davidic Queen mother of the Church or all who claim Christ as theirs and whom the devil is against in (Rev 12:1-17). So we turn to our Queen asking for her to lead us to her Son and obtain for us the graces needed for salvation(this is implied that she does this by her intercession as Catholics know). That is what we mean.

    Now in regards to The treasury of Merit. This is a very Jewish idea. In fact the Jews call this concept the "merits of the Fathers". But this is a big topic and needs to be dealt with where we can explain completely. I do not have time to cover all of it with the room I have left. But I will say this the concepts of a treasury of merit is a very Jewish idea that even the Jews recognize and also goes into the same theology as the intercession of the saints that the Jews have that we Catholics also share. It includes the idea that some people will be given certain graces or blessings based upon the actions of others (which is very biblical and Jewish in nature ie think of he old covenant with the idea being that the patriarchs pleased God and as a result others inherited certain promises as a reward(Gen 17:6-8 for example). God also fulfills these promises and ends up treating later Jews more gently than they would have been treated(Rom 11:28). Also this includes the idea of purgatory(which is also very very Jewish concept spoken by the rabbi’s themselves). To see how biblical the idea of purgatory is see my debate:


    Well that is all for now.
  9. TheyCallMeDavid

    TheyCallMeDavid Well-Known Member

    This was an interesting response from you because with the exception of Baptism needed 'for Salvation' , you agreed with the points I made that the Catholic Church adds many extraneous ways and means to what is supposed to be the finished work of Christ crucified enough to save us and justify us alone ; you didn't disagree with the points I made (since the Catholic Catechism (CCC) references I provided would make it impossible for you to deny)...but you elaborated on why Catholics are adding so much more to the plain simple completed Gospel of Christ that saves . You tried hard to show that it is Christ who is behind these 'additional graces' required to make One worthy of salvation thru the practice of doing personal meritorious works / doing sacraments / and trusting in an Institution to go thru for this long hard road of eventual salvation . But at the end of the day, we are still stuck with either Christ paying for ALL OF IT to secure our salvation and being made right in Gods eyes ....or.... pulling up on ones own bootstraps thru doing, doing, doing rituals and madeup inventions infusing what Jesus accomplished in totality. I know you know the meaning of the word 'Testalestai ' that Jesus shouted from the Cross --- it means the sin debt has been paid in full which includes ALL of which God requires to reconcile us to himself ; it is a grave error of enormous magnitude to declare thru personal striving that it wasn't enough . You can use all the flowery verbage , pointing to encyclicals written by the invalid position of 'Popes' , etc. ad nauseum.... to attempt to bolster the many doctrines of working toward Ones own salvation to complete it....but it all nullifies Scripture and the very Gospel of Christ devised by God in ages past, that saves once and for all and instantaneously . YOU HAVE been saved according to 1 John 5:13 / YOU HAVE passed from darkness to eternal life according to John 5:24 / YOU HAVE been justified by the simple faith you have in trusting that Christs sacrifice was sufficient according to Ephesians 2:8-9 . YOU HAVE your name written down in the Lambs Book of eternal Life if your genuinely received Christ into your life by simple faith. , is a promise of God . Because Gods Word of assurance and promise are all true, that makes all of the many formal doctrines of the Catholic Church unnecessary , a shame to try to accomplish , and a complete utter fraud and evil because it cant deliver and has no efficacious value other than making a Person feel like they are contributing something toward their own salvation . Why ? Because it is not the simple Gospel of Christ which Jesus and his Apostles taught that is layed out in 1 Cor. 15:1-4 for all to read and easily understand --- it doesn't require an 800+ page Catholic Catechism to tell us how to get saved .... something that very very few Catholics take the time to read from start to finish and instead , they trust that they are being fed the right way to get saved by Leaders who are grossly mistaken themselves.

    Further, I take your 'BuckShot' accusation offensively and a strawman attack . Every one of the 9 points I layed out have to do with the fact that the Catholic Church thru its formal teachings are making much more out of what the true Gospel of Christ is that saves and therefore compromises the real Gospel. A compromised Gospel has no power to save . You cannot and must not add or subtract anything to it otherwise you render it invalid . I started out this debate saying that there are a plethora of ADDITIONAL ways that Catholics are being taught to get saved other than this simple Gospel of Christ, and I have layed out 9 of the most major ones that all Catholics do . You responded to only 4 out of the 9 and on some of these you even agreed with Me that additions are being made by the Catholic Participant . I was able to list 9 major points providing Catholic references along with my comment to each in the allotted space given us....yet you complain you don't have enough space to address each point. As a Debater who is supposed to offer rebuttals to my assertions, you have failed in this regard . Also, you failed to answer the very specific questions I asked of you at the end of my first posting --- that doesn't speak well of you . Conversely, I have cogently listed 9 additional ways in which the Catholic Church trusts in for salvation OTHER THAN the finished work of Christ crucified (The real Gospel) . Every piece of 'BuckShot' fired has hit the mark on the bullseye labeled ' The Catholic Way to be Saved' .... most of which you don't care to address for fear of it only adding to the works-oriented religion you and 1.2 billion follow that is NOT the Gospel .

    Therefore, the Catholic Jesus is not the Biblical Jesus because the Catholic Jesus didn't do enough for us and the famous John 3:16 passage should be altered to read : ' God so loved the World that he gave his begotton Son, Jesus on a Cross, who kickstarted the chance for People to be made right in my sight by believing on him as well as lifelong striving of each Person making them suitable for eventual entrance into my Kingdom after further cleansing which my Sons blood didn't complete thru the acts of sacraments , a purgatory, and finding favor with Mary thru beads' .

    On to the limited answers that you did give :

    1. Christ is still the head of his Church according to Scripture, and not a Human run Institution that is wrought with legalism and asserts you must go thru IT to experience 'the fullness of salvation' . Real Salvation comes thru Jesus alone and based on what he already accomplished for the Individual who wishes to be saved., otherwise it cant be grace from God which is a free gift no matter how you try to palatable by trying to partially earn your way into heaven.

    2. Personal works were never the requirement to be saved. If they were, then CHrist didn't do enough on calvary. Further, HOW MANY works are enough to save ? Not even Pope JP2 or Mother Theresa could say they they had done enough .

    3. Baptismal Regeneration thru water being poured down a persons head, has no power to save. ONLY the blood of Jesus has that power because salvation demands a perfect sacrifice be given for the imperfect Person. Therefore, you have a misconception on scripture . The Theif on the cross didn't get baptized yet Jesus said he had eternal life . And this excuse that 'he desired to be baptized' which is not found in prior Catholic Catechisms except for the most recent, is yet another madeup invention to justify a fallacious doctrine. After we get saved, we should be baptized as it is a proclamation that we are now living for Christ our King . Baptism DOES NOT allow us entry into an Institution , does NOT make us reconciled to an Institution, cannot save anyone including infants , and all the Catholic Baptism does is get a person wet and leaving with a good feeling that they have , again, done something to allegedly help themselves .

    4. If Others could give us their personal work merits for Us to use for our own salvation, then Jesus didn't do enough on calvary and the real Gospel failed . When we stand before God, we wont have a Portfolio with us showing we are relying on what Mary and Catholics of old did for us ---- each will give account for their OWN life and what they did with Christ and his finished Gospel that saves . Portfolios will be burned up as chaff because they did nothing to merit salvation.

    In conclusion then, you either ALLOW Christ to save you because it is intended as a free undeserved unearned GIFT ...or you destroy what Christ did for you because you changed this simple Gospel that saves making it impossible to save you. No amount of Church Father quotes, no amount of flowery Encyclicals written by men in fine Silk Garb , no amount of personal attempts, no amount of Sacrament attendance, no amount of making Mary Heavens Gatekeeper or Mediatrix, and no amount of madeup inventions which will come as time goes forward....can ever help toward the simple Gospel of Christ which says : Jesus paid it ALL --- to all I owe him (but its not toward salvation, rather, its how we live our lives subsequent to that) . The Catholic Church mixes sanctification and salvation ... something that is entirely separate for having eternal life . If anyone goes to heaven, its solely because of the merits of Jesus crucified and not any of our stinking 'good' works as Isaiah 64:6 points out. .

    ******A FINAL CHALLENGE TO YOU ! Anth, you didn't answer all of my points from last time so could you please explain to us the additional salvation method of Marys 5th Rosary Promise which has Mary 'saving us' if we pray her Rosary religiously...as well as the JP2 Marion Prayer TO Mary asking her things only God can provide which includes enabling all to come to salvation ?

    As for the other points I listed, you did a fairly good job in confirming what I said that needing to go thru the Catholic Church / performing good personal meritorious works / performing routine sacraments / and taking others deposited good works to apply to Ones meritorious salvation-works Portfolio are all extraneous means added to what the Gospel of Christ calls a FREE GIFT and which Jesus, Paul, and the Disciples explicitly listed as the Death/Burial/and Ressurection of Christ for eternal salvation therefore quite sadly, compromising it and nullifying it. <Staff Edit> Thank you for your time and effort for this Debate.


    Last edited: Apr 13, 2014
  10. Athanasias

    Athanasias Regular Member

    United States
    Part I of II of my last response

    Well we have come to the end of the debate. I want to thank everyone who has followed us so far. I also want to remind you David if you think I was being unfair to by not answering all the accusations you leveled off against us Catholics in one post(Buckshot) to remember at the beginning of the last post I made that stated I would debate each one of the topics you mentioned at length each in a separate debate so I can do justice to them.

    I really want to restate that our differences are not about Christ finished work on the Cross. It is finished. We preach that. But rather what we disagree about is how Christ delivers His grace and salvation to us 2000 years later in time and space today. You hold this is grasp by grace alone through faith alone and I hold it is grasp by Gods grace alone through a living faith and the Sacraments Christ himself instituted. That&#8217;s really our disagreement here and not Christ finished work just how that work is applied personally to man 2000 years later.

    I am sorry you did not feel I answered all of your doctrinal objections. I am shocked and wandered if you really read through all my post(or just skimmed it) or if you understood all I posted then? I did answer them. And I felt that my answers did answer all of them with one exception that is the 15 promises of Mary for those who pray the rosary. Since that is not doctrine or dogma ie.. official teaching from the Church but rather just private revelation(which Catholics do not have to believe) I did not directly answer it but I did answer it indirectly by answering how Catholics understand Mary to participate in mans salvation. You must have not read that part. However I find nothing wrong with any of the promises listed if they are understood in the context of how we believe Mary participates in our salvation. Now I am really ashamed of you for acting like we believe Mary is our principle savior and ignoring all that I had posted.

    Again all you had to do is actually read Catholic Popes and the Catechism itself to see that Jesus Christ is our only savior and in fact I even quoted Pope John Paul II&#8217;s Authoritative encyclical on Jesus called &#8220;Redeemer of Man&#8221; that states exactly this. So shame on you for slandering the Catholic faith publicly and lying to others publicly about what we believe. The evidence is all there you just refuse to see it.

    Again this I did explain at length using scripture. We are speaking in context of her intercession as New Davidic Queen Mother. Here this ought to jog your memory I will just repeat myself since you did not read it the first time I posted it. This should help answer questions 6-9 for you.

    Mary and the Saints and how they help us get saved:

    There are biblical principles behind these prayers and teachings that you need to be aware of. It may shock you that other people can participate in our salvation but I do not know why that would be such a shock to you. As I mentioned earlier preachers participate in the salvation of others by preaching the word. So there is a sense where human beings can and do participate in the salvation of others St Paul talks about it in (Roman 10:13-17) but also Paul even says he can save too in this sense:

    &#8220;To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.&#8221;(1 Cor 9:22)

    He even suggest others can participate in their own salvation and others salvation by holding true dogma:

    &#8220; Take heed to yourself and to your teaching; hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers. (1 Tim 4:16)

    We also know St. Paul asked for intercessions and prayers and supplications from the body of Christ (ie the Church) which actually do aid to the salvation of others (1 Tim 2:1-4)

    What this shows us is the principle of cooperation with God so that He may ultimately bring about salvation to others. That is what we mean in regards to Mary and the Saints saving others. They cooperate in some sense to save us just like Paul did for others. Salvation in both the Jewish eyes and to Christianity has always had a corporate nature. So sometimes in the prayers of the Popes or other places we use language like scripture does that suggest this and ask them(Mary and saints) to save us in this sense ( ie what is understood by the prayers is the secondary sense like St. Paul shows of cooperation with God primarily by their heavenly intercession ) as it is Him(Christ) alone that ultimately saves us as Popes and the Catholic Church clearly talk about in their writings(if you and others would just read them in stead of Jack Chick and his friends misquotations). In context the Pope and Catholics believe that Christ is the only Savior in the ultimate sense and we look to Him but like St. Paul shows us, others too can participate in that salvation and bring us to salvation in Christ. We believe this is what Mary and the Saints do chiefly by their heavenly intercession.

    This is biblical and no early Christian or Jew ever had a problem with it for the first 1500 years of Christianity. So one can see who is teaching the apostolic faith and who is actually teaching the novel heresy in denying this. It seems clear to us and the early Christians that saints in heaven are aware of us and intercede for us to God(Rev 5:8, 2 Macc 15:12-14). This is also a very Jewish understanding as the Jews would go to the their saints (Tzaddiks) and ask deceased ones for their intercession too and did not see this as a violation of Gods laws because they were one body(this is the same as Paul teaches about Christ one Body the Church). Salvation has a corporate nature biblically and always has.

    Mary has a special role as I said earlier. For Mary especially her role is very important because she does 2 things and fulfills various types from the old covenant. 1) She fulfilled the role of the New Eve and unlike the old Eve in the old covenant that rejected God&#8217;s plan , Mary the Second Eve, accepted Gods plan and said yes or gave her full submission or fiat to God(&#8220;may it be done unto me according to your word&#8221;) to participate in bringing Christ who is God, salvation, and all grace to the world(Lk 1:38). This is what St. Irenaeus means when he said she loosed the knot of sin Eve bound on us that you quoted. Its important to realize the early Church saw this easily.

    2). She also fulfills the role of the Davidic Queen Mother as Catholic scripture scholars and early Christian saw. All Davidic Kings had Queen Mothers. The Queen mother would sit at the kings right hand, the King himself would venerate her and she would often plead or intercede on behalf of the community as seen in (1 Kings 2:19-20). Remember all Davidic kings had queen mothers. Jesus in the new covenant Matthew tells us is the Son of David(Matt 1:1) and he is our King of Kings(Rev 19:16). Naturally Mary would be his Queen Mother who sits at his right hand and intercedes for the Church. In fact we see her acting like a Queen mother when she first intercedes for the wedding party at Cana and prompts Jesus to do his first miracle even when it was not his hour(Jn 2:1-11) and John again later in the book of revelation makes it even more clear that She is the Davidic Queen mother of the Church or all who claim Christ as theirs and whom the devil is against in (Rev 12:1-17). So we turn to our Queen asking for her to lead us to her Son and obtain for us the graces needed for salvation(this is implied that she does this by her intercession as Catholics know). The Queen position was a real position of intercession for the people and power. Here is a short bible study that goes biblically deeper on it:

    A great book on this that delves deep into the biblical roots of the Davidic Queen Mother from old testament to new is : Queen Mother: A Biblical Theology of Mary&#39;s Queenship (Letter & Spirit Project): Edward Sri, Scott Hahn: 9781931018241: Amazon.com: Books

    That is what we mean. Now Again why do you ignore all the biblical evidence for this from old to New testament?

    I want to thank you for reminding of the passage in Revelation that says we are not to add anything to the scripture. I have not. As you can see all the principles I used here have biblical basis. But in that same Spirit I want to remind you that that same verse instructs us to be careful not to subtract or take away from Gods Holy word or God will take away his share in the tree of life(Rev 22:19) . (This by the way shows one can have his name written in the book of life and then do something ie..mortal sin 1 Jn 5:16-17 and have his name taken away or loose his final salvation if he does not repent and confess 1 Jn 1:8-9. )

    This is serious. You have ignored all the biblical evidence for the Catholic doctrines I just described and in doing so you have taken away from the Word of God massively and are misleading others purposely . In fact to evade all the biblical verses I quoted earlier in support of all the Catholic doctrines we hold to you must either ignore them or get out a black marker and delete them in scripture. Lets demonstrate this:

    You rejected that Christ himself works his grace and salvation through earthly sacraments He instituted and claimed Catholics added this. Yet It was Christ who instituted the sacraments like Baptism(Matt 28:19-20) and it was Christ who said it is &#8220;normatively&#8221; necessary for salvation(Mark 16:16, Jn 3:3-5) and It was Gods written word shows us Baptism does bring about initial salvation(1 Peter 3:19-21), Sanctification and justification(1 Cor 6:11, Titus 3:5-7) and forgives sins(Acts 22:16 Ezekiel 36:25-27, Roman 6: 1-12). Hence Gods finished work on the cross is apllied to us 2000 years later by grace through faith and the sacraments.

    Yes its true God can act and work outside of the visible sacraments He created and shows mercy to those such as the thief on the cross because the thief could not ever get down from there to be baptized. God is merciful if one does all he can do St. Paul even talks about this in Romans 2. But do not misunderstand God&#8217;s mercy to a sinner and mistake that for the norm. The normative means God set up for one to be saved in the bible was by His grace given through baptism initially as all those verse up there show. Now that&#8217;s a lot of bible to ignore.
  11. Athanasias

    Athanasias Regular Member

    United States
    Part II of II of my final response to David:

    Again If one falls from grace and commits a mortal sin(1 Jn 5:16-17) and looses his justification then one can go to hell if he dies without repentance in that state. In fact Jesus himself warns of these kind of mortal sins such as lust that can do that(Matt 25:27-30)

    Thankfully Gods word tells us that we can repent and confess and can be re -justified(1 Jn 1:8-9) and Christ instituted a sacrament of confession by giving his apostles this power to forgive the sins of others or to retain them(JN 20:21-23). The Fact that God has always used his priest in the reconciliation of mans sins is nothing new. In the Old covenant one would go before a priest of God confess there sins and bring an offering and the priest would take part in the reconciliation of Gods people(Lev 5:5-6). Christ by giving his apostles that power to act in his name and hear confessions and forgive sins makes it clear that they would be the New Covenant ministers of reconciliation(2 Cor 5:20) who hold a new priesthood with specific priestly duties(Roman 15:16). Again that&#8217;s a lot to ignore biblically.

    Christ made it clear that the sacrament of the Eucharist is needed normatively for spiritual growth and to aid in the eternal life of a Christian (Jn 6:53-58). Also it is apparent that the Eucharistic Sacrifice offered by Christians is really Him and his one sacrifice under a different form(1 Cor 10:16-21) and does bring about the forgiveness of sins because of this(Matt 26:28). Again another biblical sacrament that you ignored.

    Another Sacrament Christ works through that the bible mentions is the sacrament of anointing of the sick. Again this sacrament brings about forgiveness of sins to the dying and saves them(James 5:14-15, Mark 6:13). These are all ways Christ show us He used His sacraments on earth through the body of Christ he founded ie the Church he to give mankind His graces that save us or bring us to final salvation in Him. Well this is dead serious. I want to remind you Christ lived and died for all these truths you conveniently ignore in the bible that you say Catholics invented. Stop taking away from the word of God.

    The biggest problem here is you assume salvation is a one time event. It not. Salvation has 3 phases: Past, present ongoing, and future aspects biblically. Initial salvation or coming to Christ is a free gift(Eph 2:2-8). So it is past tense hence I was saved. However once one has received that free gift he must work out his own salvation with fear and trembling (because I can loose that justification) for its God that works in Him both to will and to do(Phil 2:12-13).

    Again this is present tense as we work it out currently. But there is a future tense too as I &#8220;will be saved&#8221; or hope to be saved someday(Rom 13:11, 1 Cor 3:15, 1 Cor 5:5). So there is a final aspect to salvation too or what we call final salvation and that&#8217;s just biblical. Now Dave, Catholic agree with you that initial salvation or coming to Christ is a free gift of grace with no merit on mans part whatsoever. Amen. So we agree there. But if your going to tell me that mans obedience (Romans 2:5-8) by God grace through his works (Phil 2:12-13) does not do anything to merit final salvation then I am going to ask you if you just ignore Jesus and St. Paul or take a black marker to these passages that Jesus and St. Paul talk about that reference this: I mean there is no more a glowing passage that demonstrates the kind of merit that Catholics mean ( that mankind by Gods grace and promise will receive the reward of eternal life or final salvation by what we have done then these passages (Matt 16:27, Matt 25:31-46, Jn 5: 28-30, Rev 22:12, 2 Cor 5:10, Gal 6:6-10, Rom 2:5-9, Col 3:23-24 ) . This is just a small amount of biblical evidence for this.

    Bible scholars have shown that almost every book in the New testament with the exception of Philemon teaches that man&#8217;s final salvation or Eternal reward is in cooperation with or dependent upon his works or actions of obedience. I mean how much of the word of God do you want to amputate? Stop taking away from the word of God!

    Again you act like Catholics invented the concept of infused grace for justification and baptismal regeneration. No my friend. You just refuse to read these portions of the bible. Infusion means to &#8220;pour into&#8221; by our understanding. St. Paul was very clear that the very life of God is infused in man as His Charity or supernatural love is &#8220;poured into&#8221; mans heart in the new covenant by the Holy Spirit(Rom 5:5). This happens at Baptism as prophesied formally in (Ezekiel 36:25-27). So when we are Baptized and the Holy Spirit pours this sanctification, justification and love out upon us and regenerates us from within (Titus 3:5-7) (hence infusion) and pours it into our heart (Rom 5:5) Hence (infusion). So I do not know why you act like Catholic invented this stuff. It should also be noted that Eastern Orthodox(not Catholics) and many Anglicans Christians(also not Catholics) see the same scriptural evidence for infusion. Also it should be noted that Lutherans, Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox, and some Presbyterians also hold to baptismal regeneration because of these passages too. So its not only Catholics on the regeneration part either its most Christians except for Baptist, some Calvinist, and those influenced by Baptist and some Calvinist. Again stop taking away from Gods word.

    Now again in the concept of the treasury of merit you took out of context the Catechism and now because of that and because you never read official Catholic documents you make it look like mans own powers and works are going to get him and others to eternal salvation. You ignored the CCC 2007 when it stated that &#8220;with regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man.&#8221; You only quoted CCC 1477 which talked about the saints treasury but conveniently did not include the preceding paragraph 1476 which stated :

    &#8220;We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints the Church's treasury, which is "not the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary the 'treasury of the Church' is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ's merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their efficacy."88

    in other words every merit man has is all do to with Christ Strict merit and work on the cross and His work in them making their works valuable. Hey this sounds a lot like Phil 2:13 &#8220;for it is God that works in you both to will and to do&#8221;. Any thing the saints accomplish in this life that has value is because Christ gave them value infinitely by his Passion death and resurrection and any works we have done have always been seen as Gods gifts of grace to us(CCC 2011) not our own doing strictly(.CCC 2007).

    Now another thing you misunderstand is the nature of the treasury which has Jewish roots and also goes to the corporate understanding of man in relation to God, his people, and rewards. When we talk about this in the new covenant we are only talking about a receiving a reward of remittance of temporary punishments(Purgatory) not hell(eternal punishments). This means God has forgiven the sinner and removed the eternal punishment(Hell) but a temporary punishment remains. We see this in scripture all the time. For example 2 Sam 12:13-14 God forgives Davids sin and his eternal punishment is remitted but God chooses to give David a temporal punishment of taking his son. We see this in the New covenant too as even though saved female Christians are forgiven they still must suffer the temporal punishments of painful childbirth. Saved men and women even today suffer temporal punishments of hard work and death. The early Church as well as the Church today saw Purgatory or final sanctification through a painful purifying fire as a type of temporary punishment involving suffering(1 Cor 3:15) . Christ in a very Jewish way (if you know the rabbi&#8217;s writings) relates this purgatorial concept to a prison in the afterlife that one will not get out of till he has payed the last penny(Matt 5: 22-26, Matt 18:23-35). Now the principle of the treasury is very Jewish and involves the biblical concepts found in both old and new testaments that show us that when one person pleases God he may choose to reward others based on that. It includes the idea that some people will be given certain graces or blessings based upon the actions of others (which is very biblical and Jewish in nature and the Jews call this concept the &#8220;merits of the fathers&#8221;). Think of the old covenant with the idea being that the patriarchs pleased God and as a result others inherited certain promises as a reward(Gen 17:6-8 for example). God also fulfills these promises and ends up treating later Jews more gently than they would have been treated(Rom 11:28).

    Remember merit in the Catholic understanding in regards to mankind simply means reward or the doctrine of rewards. It all based on Christ work on the cross and his grace . God in the bible shows us He remits the temporal penalties of some because of the faith of others. For example Genesis 18:16-33 God was willing to remit the punishment of a whole group of people if Abraham could find a certain number of righteous men in Sodom. That is about as clear as one can get on the treasury of the Church. We also see this concept in 1 Kings 11:11-13 where God lessened the temporal punishments of Israel for the sake of David his righteous servant.

    It seems evident that God in the New covenant also sees this sharing of the graces and blessings in the body of Christ and has mercy on some for the sake of others. In fact in the New covenant under Jesus one can offer up their own suffering for the sake of the whole Church(Col 1:24). Not only do we have this ability to affect others by our actions in Christ by his grace but in the New covenant the Church is given by Christ the power to forgive or retain sins(Jn 20:21-24) and the power to Bind and loose(Matt 18:15-20) hence the Church is given to the power by Christ himself to remit eternal punishments then how much more can she use that power to call upon Christ grace on the cross and those in His body in Heaven to remit temporal punishments. The principle for this doctrine seem very biblically clear to me. Again Why do you take away from the word of God David?

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