is Sunday morning church attendance a requirement for Christians?

[Ken Rank]

some teach you dont have to do anything
you dont have to change your mind
or your life
\god says to them:

Rev_2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

change or else.

Rev_2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

not a good thing to get fought against by God...

It is good to repent and change for the better God gives us the holy spirit to do so.

The English repent mans to turn away and think differently... but the Hebrew word teshuvah goes further and gives a destination. It isn't just "turn away" it is ALSO "turn to.." as in "to God and His standards."

 

[ViaCrucis]

The light did not appear till the 2nd part of the day which is the reason the first christian chose not the jewish way for feast but transferred it to first light .

What on earth are you talking about?

"Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day." - Genesis 1:3-5

Where are you getting this "2nd part of the day" stuff from?

There is only one pre-nicene writer that mentions sunday which is Justin but most scholars agree that it is spurious written post nicene .

Oh? Name one. Name these "most scholars", offer something. Anything. Show me someone who says that the First Apology was not written by Justin Martyr but is post-Nicene.

The first day of creation was only mentioned because that is the reference to first light appearing in the 2nd half of a day

What 2nd half of a day?

Only a consensus among those who worship on SUNday, to protect this doctrine because their is no evidence period that the Lord's day was the first day pre-nicene

More baseless assertion.

what have you offered , you have not posted the verse in acts of Peter in Latin to show it does not say "one of the Sabbaths,

What I quoted, from what I can tell, is from the Coptic fragment from the Berlin Codex; not the Latin Vercelli Manuscript. Online translations tend to be those by M.R. James, such as the following from his "The Apocryphal New Testament" published in 1924,

"I
THE COPTIC FRAGMENT
This is preserved separately in an early papyrus manuscript (fourth-fifth century) now at Berlin; the other contents of it are Gnostic writings which have not yet been published. I follow C. Schmidt's rendering of it. It has a title at the end: The Act of Peter

On the first day of the week, that is, on the Lord's day, a multitude gathered together, and they brought unto Peter many sick that he might heal them. And one of the multitude adventured to say unto Peter: Lo, Peter, in our presence thou hast made many blind to see and the deaf to hear and the lame to walk, and hast succoured the weak and given them strength: but wherefore hast thou not succoured thy daughter, the virgin, which grew up beautiful and hath believed in the name of God? For behold, her one side is wholly palsied, and she lieth there stretched out in the corner helpless. We see them that have been healed by thee: thine own daughter thou hast neglected."

It have not shown one MS that is pre-nicene. I gave you Eusebuis which was a prenicene writing which says they transfered from evening (jewish way) to first light

Eusebius is not pre-Nicene. Eusebius of Caesarea's stay as bishop of Caesarea lasted from 314 until 340; the Council of Nicea convened in 325. If you are able to determine that his Commentary on the Psalms was written prior to the Council of Nicea then, by all means, I will grant you this work as pre-Nicene; but presenting Eusebius as a pre-Nicene authority is simply false. Eusebius--who was a good friend to Emperor Constantine by the way and is the author of Constantine's biography, the Vita Constantini--is contemporaneous with the Council.

Again, if you have an argument then offer it. Because you continue to offer nothing but your own baseless assertions.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[rkl1963]

What on earth are you talking about?
googletag.cmd.push(function() { googletag.display('div-gpt-ad-1431698694306-1'); });
"Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day."

Where are you getting this "2nd part of the day" stuff from?

It is very simple . Before there was light on the first day of creation there was darkness therefore the meaning the evening and the morning .2 PARTS

Oh? Name one. Name these "most scholars", offer something. Anything. Show me someone who says that the First Apology was not written by Justin Martyr but is post-Nicene.

I never said Justin's First Apology ,I said the writing that mentioned sunday was spurious

THE COPTIC FRAGMENT
This is preserved separately in an early papyrus manuscript (fourth-fifth century) now at Berlin; the other contents of it are Gnostic writings which have not yet been published. I follow C. Schmidt's rendering of it. It has a title at the end: The Act of Peter

Then show it in language it was written because you will find it nowhere mentions first day of week ,it says one of the SABBATHS which after Constantine was given the meaning first day of week . Greek and Latin have words that mean first,day and week which no NT writing or prenicene father uses when speaking of resurrection or day of worship. 8th day, Lord's day all carried the meaning of the difference between the Sabbath feast being a sunset of friday and it being at first light on Saturday. Nowhere prenicene is there any evidence SUNday was the Lord's day because absolutely no one connects it by mentioning both . fact is sunday is only mentioned once by a prenicene father and first day is never mentioned

Eusebius is not pre-Nicene. Eusebius of Caesarea's stay as bishop of Caesarea lasted from 314 until 340; the Council of Nicea convened in 325. If you are able to determine that his Commentary on the Psalms was written prior to the Council of Nicea then, by all means, I will grant you this work as pre-Nicene; but presenting Eusebius as a pre-Nicene authority is simply false

Both writings prove Eusebius knew nothing of Jesus rising on firstday , the date of his writings are completely not verifiable
but his mindset and knowledge was prenicene in both writings.

You still have not provided one shred of evidence ,just a false translation and interpretation

 

[rkl1963]

You will not find this in any biblical account or quote

πρώτη ημέρα της εβδομάδας
pró̱ti̱ i̱méra ti̱s evdomádas
Which is first day of the week in Greek

 

[ViaCrucis]

You will not find this in any biblical account or quote

πρώτη ημέρα της εβδομάδας
pró̱ti̱ i̱méra ti̱s evdomádas
Which is first day of the week in Greek

Did you seriously just copy and paste from Google Translate?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[rkl1963]

Did you seriously just copy and paste from Google Translate?

Is it incorrect or correct so you are using where i got it as a red herring ,the fact is you found it searching for translation in greek, I was looking for copy and paste that was verifiable

 

[Ken Rank]

If you (speaking generally here, so "anyone") don't know a foreign language, the forms and nuances of it... you don't need to be arguing about it. Searching Strong's or another lexicon is good study but it does not make one an expert on that language. In our desire to be correct we take some leaps we need not take. All knowledge and understanding comes from the Most High... we need not get prideful, or combative, over what we do or don't understand. We are His... growing independently of one another but still working together as one body to the good of the whole.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Is it incorrect or correct so you are using where i got it as a red herring ,the fact is you found it searching for translation in greek, I was looking for copy and paste that was verifiable

I actually discovered this because I thought the transliteration you provided looked strange and, on a hunch, went to Google Translate to see if I could get the same results: I could and I did.

Because we are not looking for machine translations of modern Greek, but looking to ancient Koine Greek we should look for how such Greek speakers spoke. Well, in this case we know how they spoke and the way they used their words. The word we should expect to find meaning "week" is σάββατον, yes that is the Greek word also meaning "sabbath".

For example in Matthew 28:1 we read:

Ὀψὲ δὲ σαββάτων τῇ ἐπιφωσκούσῃ εἰς μίαν σαββάτων ἦλθεν Μαρία ἡ Μαγδαληνὴ καὶ ἡ ἄλλη Μαριὰ θεωρῆσαι τὸν τάφον

Opse de sabbaton te epiphoskouse eis mian sabbaton elthen Maria e Magdalene kai e alle Maria thoresai ton taphon

"At the close of the Sabbath (sabbaton), at the dawning of the first of the week (sabbaton), came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the grave."

Contextually it makes no sense to speak of the close of the Sabbath at the dawning of the first of the Sabbath; but where "sabbaton" has become a synecdoche to refer to the entire seven day week the meaning, contextually, is rather clear.

As such the phrase we are looking for is μίαν σαββάτων.

No, not a red herring' I really don't see a significant reason to be continuing this discussion, especially since you are either unable or unwilling to substantiate anything you claim.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[rkl1963]

No, not a red herring; but pointing out that you seem woefully unequipped to be having this debate. I really don't see a significant reason to be continuing, especially since you are either unable or unwilling to substantiate anything you claim.

I fully understand the NT was written in ancient Koine Greek , I was posting a verifiable example for others to see . Your claim that. Your claim that Sabbaton means week when the ancient Koine Greek had a word for week, they also had a word for day but for some reason did not include it in account.
All you have is a claim that one of Sabbaths (PLURAL) means first day of week(sing) which was a necessary explanation when average people gained access to reading the bible . The RCC will tell you there is no basis in the bible for SUNday worship , they made to the change on their authority

Contextually it makes no sense to speak of the close of the Sabbath at the dawning of the first of the Sabbath; but where "sabbaton" has become a synecdoche to refer to the entire seven day week the meaning, contextually, is rather clear.

That is because it does not mean close , it means evening ,2nd part of day on so baseless point.
Matthew 28 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
28 And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre.
Yes Jesus rose on the eve of the Sabbath (2nd part) on the first sabbath in the count to Pentecost. Maybe a little cultural research would help you understand context
Did you bother to read Quaestiones ad Stephanum et Marinum wrote by Eusebius of Caesarea
Eusebius answer makes absolutely no sense for to argue against Mark if it meant first day of week if you interpret Matthew as meaning after the Sabbath. He was arguing which part of the Sabbath day Jesus rose one

 

[ViaCrucis]

That is because it does not mean close , it means evening ,2nd part of day on so baseless point.
Matthew 28 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
28 And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre.
Yes Jesus rose on the eve of the Sabbath (2nd part) on the first sabbath in the count to Pentecost. Maybe a little cultural research would help you understand context
Did you bother to read Quaestiones ad Stephanum et Marinum wrote by Eusebius of Caesarea
Eusebius answer makes absolutely no sense for to argue against Mark if it meant first day of week if you interpret Matthew as meaning after the Sabbath. He was arguing which part of the Sabbath day Jesus rose one

The eve, the late-time, the ὀψέ of the Sabbath (σάββατον). Not plural, singular, it is in the genitive case; the Sabbath's end, latter part, the close of it, etc. In the same way that σάββατον is in the genitive to describe its first μίαν; here μίαν is the accusitive case of μία denoting the direction described in the verb εἰς, meaning toward, in the direction of. What is toward the first of the σάββατον? ἐπιφώσκω the growing or coming light; i.e. the dawn. Thus with the close, the end, the lateness of the Sabbath (σάββατον).

The plural of σάββατον is σάββατα; if the text read σάββατα then you could correctly render it as "sabbaths", but that isn't the word used in the text.

The light of the first day of the week happens at the close, the end of, the Sabbath day; Jesus rose not super late on the Sabbath, but early in the morning after the Sabbath was over.

Do you really believe it to be fruitful to continue this discussion?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[rkl1963]

Do you really believe it to be fruitful to continue this discussion?

No not with someone who ignores all facts because it would go against doctrine

Young and many more disagree with your claim, here is a study on it
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/1952159/posts?page=137

 

[rkl1963]

Here are the many that disagree

The Concordant Greek Text
The Concordant Literal New Testament
Robert Young’s Literal Translation
Some of John Calvin’s Commentaries
The Companion Bible
The Interlinear Bible by J.P. Green, 2nd Edition, Vol. IV
The Coverdale Quarto Bible, 1537
Some of Wycliffe’s Translations
Some of Tyndale’s Translations
The Rheims version, 1582
The Bishop’s Bible, 1568
The Latin Vulgate
The Old Latin
All Greek Texts
The Syriac Peshitta

 

[ViaCrucis]

Here are the many that disagree

The Concordant Greek Text
The Concordant Literal New Testament
Robert Young’s Literal Translation
Some of John Calvin’s Commentaries
The Companion Bible
The Interlinear Bible by J.P. Green, 2nd Edition, Vol. IV
The Coverdale Quarto Bible, 1537
Some of Wycliffe’s Translations
Some of Tyndale’s Translations
The Rheims version, 1582
The Bishop’s Bible, 1568
The Latin Vulgate
The Old Latin
All Greek Texts
The Syriac Peshitta

I'm guessing you got this from a list online somewhere and didn't actually look up the references yourself.

From the 1568 Bishop's Bible

In case the typeface is hard to make out: "In the later ende of the Sabboth day, whiche dawneth the first daye of the weke, came Marie Magdalen, and the other marie, to see the sepulchre."

Here is the Vulgata Clementina:

"Vespere autem sabbati, quæ lucescit in prima sabbati, venit Maria Magdalene, et altera Maria, videre sepulchrum."

Sabbati, grammatically singular.

You mention "some of Wycliffe's translations" but don't specify which, I'm aware of two forms: the rare earlier version hand-made in Wycliffe's lifetime and a post-humous version edited by John Purvey; from what I can tell most surviving versions of Wycliffe's translation are the 1385 Wycliffe-Purvey, here is a 1731 edition of the 1385 text:

From a transcription of the 12th century Codex Colbertinus:

Here is the 1582 Rheims New Testament:

To be fair, some of your listed sources do have "sabbaths", for example Tyndale and the Concordant Literal Greek NT.

But let's consider how many I've looked up here, just using a little Google power, that demonstrates that a considerable number of your sources disagree with your claim.

This is what I'm talking about, you had these sources, you got this list somewhere; you didn't look these up yourself to even verify them, if you had, you'd have found the same things I've found.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[rkl1963]

This is what I'm talking about, you had these sources, you got this list somewhere; you didn't look these up yourself to even verify them, if you had, you'd have found the same things I've found.

I have no problem with the ones you posted as a witness ,all of which at least translate one part correctly , all showing it was not the first day when it was noticed Jesus was risen.
Kind of a waste of time on your part

 

[rkl1963]

Here is the Vulgata Clementina:

"Vespere autem sabbati, quæ lucescit in prima sabbati, venit Maria Magdalene, et altera Maria, videre sepulchrum."

Sabbati, grammatically singular.

This witness was to the fact that Jerome did not translate it to first day of Week which would be an absolute considering the purpose of translation

 

[rkl1963]

Luke 6 speaks of the 2nd sabbath after the first which would witness the One of the Sabbaths was the first in the count of Sabbaths to Pentecost.
"For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrated the sacred mysteries (the Lord's Supper) on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Allexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, refuse to do this." The footnote which accompanies the foregoing quotation explains the use of the word "Sabbath." It says: "That is, upon the Saturday. It should be observed, that Sunday is never called "the Sabbath' by the ancient Fathers and historians." Sacrates, "Ecclestical History," Book 5, chap. 22, p. 289.

What was the tradition of Rome? Sun God Worship

PERSIA-A.D. 335-375 (40 YEARS PERSECUTION UNDER SHAPUR II)
The popular complaint against the Christians-"They despise our sungod, they have divine services on Saturday, they desecrate the sacred the earth by burying their dead in it." Truth Triumphant," p.170.

PERSIA-A.D.335-375
"They despise our sun-god. Did not Zorcaster, the sainted founder of our divine beliefs, institute Sunday one thousand years ago in honour of the sun and supplant the Sabbath of the Old Testament. Yet these Christians have divine services on Saturday." O'Leary, "The Syriac Church and Fathers," pp.83, 84.

 

[Ken Rank]

PERSIA-A.D. 335-375 (40 YEARS PERSECUTION UNDER SHAPUR II)
The popular complaint against the Christians-"They despise our sungod, they have divine services on Saturday, they desecrate the sacred the earth by burying their dead in it." Truth Triumphant," p.170.

PERSIA-A.D.335-375
"They despise our sun-god. Did not Zorcaster, the sainted founder of our divine beliefs, institute Sunday one thousand years ago in honour of the sun and supplant the Sabbath of the Old Testament. Yet these Christians have divine services on Saturday." O'Leary, "The Syriac Church and Fathers," pp.83, 84.

I am staying out of this because I don't even know what the debate is over. You have two Sabbaths between the time he died and raised from the dead. And then starting on Sunday, you are counting 7 Sabbaths and the day after it, which would be a Sunday, is Pentecost. And that is what Matthew 28:1 is dealing with.

That said... I did want to comment on these two quotes as both are anachronistic. The word Saturday in the top quote and Sunday in the bottom..... neither word existed in any language at that time. They are inserted by whoever translated it to make sure the reader knew which day was being spoken of, but those words were not in use at that time.

 

[rkl1963]

That said... I did want to comment on these two quotes as both are anachronistic. The word Saturday in the top quote and Sunday in the bottom..... neither word existed in any language at that time.

They had names of days long before the time of this writing but you are right the words sunday and saturday did not exist in this form but neither did most of the words of your english bible you read

 

[Ken Rank]

They had names of days long before the time of this writing but you are right the words sunday and saturday did not exist in this form but neither did most of the words of your english bible you read

"English bible I read?" Do you know what languages I read? I was just pointing out the anachronism.... those two words don't show up until the late 6th century in Anglo-Saxon but I know you already knew this.

 

[rkl1963]

"English bible I read?" Do you know what languages I read? I was just pointing out the anachronism.... those two words don't show up until the late 6th century in Anglo-Saxon but I know you already knew this.

Yes I was aware but the point I was making is the words you call into question are translations of words that meant Saturday and Sunday at the time of writing . No they were not added ,they are there in the language of writings