May I ask, by your reasoning, by who's and what Entity was it that delt with this issue 500 years ago, and by what authority were they/it is qualified?
As you appear to be unaware of some of the most important developments within Europe over the centuries, then maybe you are not quite the right person to defend your denominations various positions? Of course, as we both know that you are merely being disingenuous, then if you were to return to the question in a more honest manner then I will be prepared to discuss this with you.
But we should keep in mind the purpose of this thread as it is not about the peculiar views of any specific denomination but about speaking in tongues.
This is all very nice Biblicist, but I feel it still dosen't answer my very simple question. Since you beleive the Holy Spirit does not play a major role in teaching us the Word of God, Written or Spoken, lets leave Him out of the equation, just this one time. Okay?
So..... Let's say you are in a disagreement on the meaning of a certain Scripture passage with another Pentecostal such as yourself, say from your church or a church across across town. In this disagreement, you both claim the other is in error. and there is no way you two can come to an agreement. Who or what authority could the two of you could turn to that would determine who among you two is in error, or that the both of you are in error?
As this is a relevant question, at least on the surface, then let’s take this a step further, where I was maybe discussing a passage of Scripture with a Christian before I was saved, just as many have done before me and who will continue to do so until the Day of the Lord.
So, depending on my cognitive skills and interest at a given point of time, let’s presume that I had encountered a cessationist who was sitting at a railway station, though at the time I wouldn’t have realised what a cessationist was. Being the inquisitive person that I can be at times, I soon noticed that he was reading 1 Cor 14:2-5 and for good measure he somehow makes the tactical error of mentioning John 16:13 “
the Holy Spirit will guide you”, which I realise a few years later is not a great idea at the best of times.
As he just happens to have two Bibles (very nice of him), he hands me something called an NASB and he keeps one that apparently some bloke called Holman has stuck his name on the front of. Anyway, he starts reading from the Bible that is owned by this Holman fellow about some “person who is speaking in another language” where the Bible that I was given, says “For the one who speaks in a tongue . . .”; where I say, ‘wait a minute, whose right, was the person speaking in a tongue, whatever that means, or was he speaking in another language?”
The friendly fellow train traveller then informs me that as the original New Testament was written in Greek that the word in English means language. Okay says me, then why did the Bible you gave say tongues instead of language? Well, it actually means both and even though there is apparently another specific Greek word for language, we know that Paul, who wrote this part of the Bible meant to say language instead of tongue. So right away I am thinking that this Paul chap is not all that sharp; as I heard him earlier saying to someone on his phone how the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth, I then kindly suggested that he should maybe go and ask him about this!
Where he replies by saying, 'Well, it doesn’t really seem to work that way'; where I reply, 'What do you mean, either he can tell you what the word is supposed to mean or he can’t – which is it?' 'Oh . . . the friendly traveller says, I know, I can check on my phone to see what the Greek has to say about the word'. 'Fine says me, let’s go for it'. So he comes back and says, 'Actually, the word does mean tongue, so wasn’t the Holy Spirit a great help' . . . where I say, 'The “Holy Spirit”, but didn’t you just check your phone for the answer?'
So this is what always seems to happen when we come across a passage of Scripture that confuses us, we pretend that the Holy Spirit gave us the solution when in reality we simply take a guess and say it it the Holy Spirit who guided us. As I have never really come across anyone who is able to receive Divine revelation every time that they come across a difficult passage, then there has to be a reason why this passage “seems” to be wrong!
But as they say “Wait a minute – there is more to it than we think”; could it be that John meant something quite different to what we hear in the proverbial traps about this passage, where I would say, certainly so.
What John actually said, was NOT that the Holy Spirit would “teach us” but that he will “guide us”
into all the truth. Which by the way, he assisted with doing with the great Reformation, though this was only a precursor into even greater things. The Greek word for teaching is
didaskolos where the Greek for
guiding is
hodegeo. So, for those of us who make the effort to peruse the better commentaries along with grasping the basics of using a good lexicon or two, then the Holy Spirit is better able to guide us into the truth, whereas those who do not make the effort are left to their own devices, or to the devices of their peers who may know as little as they do.
Now, how this applies to me is that as I have made an incredible amount of effort to learn from the best of the best, where I have and continue to source the commentary from a wide range of sources, then I am undoubtedly better prepared than many to have the Holy Spirit to speak to me (at least with certain areas), where he can guide me through the often complex pathways that beset us, including through the limitations of my own fallen humanity and even with my
occasional (I’m being generous to myself) blindness and folly.
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Lexical references behind our English word
to guide:
When I provide Lexical references, it is not always to demonstrate a particular point of view, where they seem to be posted more as a point of reference, or a way of finding some common ground.
Friberg Lexicon:
19306 ὁδηγέω fut. ὁδηγήσω; literally lead someone on the way, escort, guide (MT 15.14); figuratively instruct, teach, guide in learning (AC 8.31)
UBS Lexicon:
4252 ὁδηγέω lead, guide
Louw-Nida Lexicon:
15.182 ὁδηγέω: to guide or to direct, with the implication of making certain that people reach an appropriate destination - 'to lead, to guide.' τυφλὸς δὲ τυφλὸν ἐὰν ὁδηγῇ, ἀμφότεροι εἰς βόθυνον πεσοῦνται 'if one who is blind tries to guide another who is blind, they will both fall into a ditch' Mt 15.14; ὁδηγήσει αὐτοὺς ἐπὶ ζωῆς πηγὰς ὑδάτων 'he shall lead them to living springs of water' Re 7.17.
LSJ Lexicon:
0062 ὁδηγέω
ὁδηγέω, f. ήσω, (ὁδηγός) to lead one upon his way, c. acc. pers., Aesch.; absol. to lead the way, Eur.
BDAG Lexicon:
5186 ὁδηγέω
• ὁδηγέω (ὁδηγός) fut. ὁδηγήσω; 1 aor. ὡδήγησα LXX; pass. aor. 3 sg. ὡδηγήθη (Just.) ([for ὁδαγέω s. B-D-F §29, 3] Aeschyl. et al.; ins fr. Transjordan [NGG Phil.-hist. Kl. Fachgr. V n.s. I/1, ’36 p. 3, 1: divine leading]; Kaibel 1041, 1; PSI 332, 6; LXX; Test12Patr, Just.; Tat. 13, 2)
1. to assist in reaching a desired destination, lead, guide, lit. (Jos., Vi. 96; ὁ δὲ Μωσῆς ὁ τοὺς Ἰουδαίους Theoph. Ant. 3, 20 [p. 242, 16]) τινά someone τυφλὸς τυφλόν (cp. Hesiod, Astron. fgm. 182 Rz. a blind man; Plut., Mor. 139a τυφλούς; TestReub 2:9; Ps.-Phoc. 24) Mt 15:14; Lk 6:39. τινὰ ἐπί τι someone to someth. (cp. M. Ant. 7, 55, 1 ἐπὶ τί σε ἡ φύσις ὁδηγεῖ; PSI loc. cit.; Ps 106:30; 22:3; 24:5) ἐπὶ ζωῆς πηγὰς ὑδάτων to springs of living water Rv 7:17.
2. to assist someone in acquiring information or knowledge, lead, guide, conduct, fig. ext. of 1 (Plut., Mor. 954b; Sextus 167 σοφία ψυχὴν ὁδηγεῖ πρὸς θεόν; LXX; Theoph. Ant. 1, 14 [p 90, 12]) of the Spirit ὁδηγήσει ὑμᾶς εἰς τὴν ἀλήθειαν πᾶσαν J 16:13 (in the Herm. Lit. Hermes-Nous leads the souls to knowledge: Herm. Wr. 10, 21 εἰς τὴν εὐσεβῆ ψυχὴν ὁ νοῦς ὁδηγεῖ αὐτὴν ἐπὶ τὸ τῆς γνώσεως φῶς. Cp. 4, 11; 7, 2; 9, 10; 12, 12. Rtzst., Poim. 23, 5, Mysterienrel3 297; PGM 13, 523ff πάντα κινήσεις … Ἑρμοῦ σε ὁδηγοῦντος.—Wsd 9:11; 10:10, 17; TestJud 14:1 εἰς πλάνην. Theoph. Ant. 3, 15 [p. 234, 118] λόγος ἅγιος ὁ.). Of lying ὁδηγεῖ εἰς τὴν κλοπήν it leads to theft D 3:5. Of complaining: εἰς τ. βλασφημίαν 3:6. Of divination: εἰς τὴν εἰδωλολατρείαν 3:4 (cp. TestJud 19:1 ἡ φιλαργυρία πρὸς εἰδωλολατρείαν ὁδηγεῖ). Also ὁδ. πρός τι (TestGad 5:7) 3:2f. Without further qualification: ἐὰν μή τις ὁδηγήσει με if no one instructs me Ac 8:31.—DELG s.v. ὁδός. M-M. TW.
LEH Lexicon:
274 ὁδηγέω
ὁδηγέω+ - V 5-3-1-31-4-44
Ex 13,17; 15,13; 32,34; Nm 24,8; Dt 1,33to guide, to lead [τινα] Ex 13,17; id. [τινα] (metaph.) Eccl 2,3 *Dt 1,33 ὁδηγῶν guiding -tנחה for MT tחנה to camp, to pitch tent; *Is 63,14 ὡδήγησεν αὐτούς )the spirit( guided them -תנחנו tנחה for MT תניחנו t) נוחthe spirit( gave them rest; *Ps 89)90(,16 καὶ ὁδή-γησον and guide -והדרך tדרך for MT ך/והדר tהדר and your glorious powerCf. DOGNIEZ 1992, 119(Dt 1,33); DORIVAL 1994, 446; LARCHER 1984, 589; WEVERS 1995, 20 (Dt 1,33); ïTWNT (ïκαθ-)
EDNT Dictionary:
3635
ὁδηγέω hod¢geœ lead, guide; instruct*
Matt 15:14 par. Luke 6:39, in the saying on the blind man who leads the blind; John 16:13: "the Spirit of Truth" "will instruct you in all truth"; Acts 8:31, of instruction in the (Christian) understanding of the Scriptures; Rev 7:17: the "lamb" will lead the martyrs to springs of the water of life. W. Michaelis, TDNT V, 97-102; G. Ebel, DNTT III, 942f. [2:491]
Have a Blessed up coming Holy Week.
Hey, isn't every week holy in the Lord?
