Is slavery immoral

createdtoworship

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Hmm. The only thing you've listed is what would benefit you. Is that what Christianity is about? Obey the law so you can grab as much for yourself as possible?

well when I was initially saved, yes it was selfishness, all about how I would be blessed to escape Hell. It was fire insurance. But that is typically how salvation does occur in most. So I was not alone in this. Eventually as I had assurance of salvation, I realized God loved me and would not take salvation away, I started to fall back into sin. Then later as I returned to scripture 15 years later. I started to fall in love with God anew and afresh. And now instead of praying for material Gain I pray for the father, instead of a healing I pray for the healer, instead of praying for restoration I pray for the restorer Himself. I don't want stuff anymore, I want Him. But it has been a long process. With any relationship the more time and effort you invest the more intimate it becomes. Oh how patient God must be to love freely and have a shallow materialistic love in return. I couldn't do that, that would be too painful .

Of course heavenly rewards will only benefit those who make it to heaven. So what reason do unbelievers have to obey your law? Is your god going to bless them as well for obeying?

Holiness is simply being wise. Godly fear is the beginning of such wisdom. However the seeds we plant of Godly wisdom in the world, even for the unbeliever, they can glean of those principles. They may not be able to have the eternal reward. But as they heed the principles, they are drawn to WHY we have the wisdom. As they reject the principles their heart grows harder toward the Lord. It says in exodus, pharoah hardened his heart. After awhile of hardening our heart, God then grants us our wish, and hardens our heart more. After turning the water of the nile to blood, I would have repented right away, but satan counterfeited the miracle in a minor way and pharoahs magicians turned water to blood in a very small manner. This was all the excuse pharaoh needed to harden His heart toward the miracle. And his nation was destroyed from a world ruling empire, to having absolutely no military. The egyptians even though they were unsaved, realized with common sense that the hebrew God was real and was with them, so they had favor with them and gave them supplies, gold, silver for their journey. So yes the unsaved can be moral, and the more moral they will be the better off. The only problem is they are addicted irrevocably to sin. Without Christ their is not overcomming the power of sin. So their efforts will be shallow. But hypothetically speaking if an athiest performed the works of a christian he would be blessed as per the law of the universe. But the enemy has already blinded them to feel morality is restricting and repressive. So why would they do it?
 
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createdtoworship

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Yes, owning another human being is immoral.

-CryptoLutheran
is it that black and white? If so then the Bible is blatantly immoral....
"But every man’s servant who is bought for money, when you have circumcised him, then he may eat it. A sojourner and a hired servant shall not eat it. In one house it shall be eaten; you shall not carry any of the flesh outside the house, nor shall you break one of its bones."
Exodus 12:44‭-‬46 NKJV
 
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Resha Caner

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is it that black and white? If so then the Bible is blatantly immoral....
"But every man’s servant who is bought for money, when you have circumcised him, then he may eat it. A sojourner and a hired servant shall not eat it. In one house it shall be eaten; you shall not carry any of the flesh outside the house, nor shall you break one of its bones."
Exodus 12:44‭-‬46 NKJV

The Bible gives instructions on divorce. Is the Bible immoral for doing that?
 
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ViaCrucis

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is it that black and white? If so then the Bible is blatantly immoral....
"But every man’s servant who is bought for money, when you have circumcised him, then he may eat it. A sojourner and a hired servant shall not eat it. In one house it shall be eaten; you shall not carry any of the flesh outside the house, nor shall you break one of its bones."
Exodus 12:44‭-‬46 NKJV

No, the Bible isn't immoral.
But slavery is.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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createdtoworship

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No, the Bible isn't immoral.
But slavery is.

-CryptoLutheran
Servants, be submissive to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the harsh.
1Pe 2:19

For this is commendable, if because of conscience toward God one endures grief, suffering wrongfully.
1Pe 2:20

For what credit is it if, when you are beaten for your faults, you take it patiently? But when you do good and suffer, if you take it patiently, this is commendable before God.
1Pe 2:21

For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us,[fn] leaving us[fn] an example, that you should follow His steps:
 
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ViaCrucis

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well in both situations there is an acceptable form of divorce, and an acceptable version of slavery

There's no such thing as an acceptable version of slavery.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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createdtoworship

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No, the Bible isn't immoral.
But slavery is.

-CryptoLutheran
1Ti 6:1


Let as many bondservants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and His doctrine may not be blasphemed.
 
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createdtoworship

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There's no such thing as an acceptable version of slavery.

-CryptoLutheran
Col 3:22


Bondservants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in sincerity of heart, fearing God.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Servants, be submissive to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the harsh.
1Pe 2:19

For this is commendable, if because of conscience toward God one endures grief, suffering wrongfully.
1Pe 2:20

For what credit is it if, when you are beaten for your faults, you take it patiently? But when you do good and suffer, if you take it patiently, this is commendable before God.
1Pe 2:21

For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us,[fn] leaving us[fn] an example, that you should follow His steps:

That the Apostles speak with an assumption of slavery as a social institution--because that was the world in which they lived--does not make that social institution good or moral. St. Peter also instructs us to "respect the emperor" (1 Peter 2:17), does that mean there SHOULD be an emperor to rule our society? No. It just means that then, during the time of the Roman Empire, there very much was an emperor who ruled that empire.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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1Ti 6:1


Let as many bondservants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and His doctrine may not be blasphemed.

Col 3:22


Bondservants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in sincerity of heart, fearing God.

I'm sure you think these passages somehow defend whatever point you want to make, but--again--all these passages do is show that slavery existed at the time of the apostles. Neither of these justify slavery as an institution.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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createdtoworship

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That the Apostles speak with an assumption of slavery as a social institution--because that was the world in which they lived--does not make that social institution good or moral. St. Peter also instructs us to "respect the emperor" (1 Peter 2:17), does that mean there SHOULD be an emperor to rule our society? No. It just means that then, during the time of the Roman Empire, there very much was an emperor who ruled that empire.

-CryptoLutheran
But God says else where that we are slaves of God, so why would He use a carnal term to explain a holy thing? Unless there are exceptions to the fact that ALL SLAVERY IS WRONG.
 
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ViaCrucis

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But God says else where that we are slaves of God, so why would He use a carnal term to explain a holy thing? Unless there are exceptions to the fact that ALL SLAVERY IS WRONG.

You mean why would the biblical writers, living in the time and place they did, employ vocabulary from their time and place in order to talk to other people living at the same time, and in the same culture?

I would think the answer to that should be obvious. Relating ideas through language which is familiar is how human beings tend to communicate with one another.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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createdtoworship

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You mean why would the biblical writers, living in the time and place they did, employ vocabulary from their time and place in order to talk to other people living at the same time, and in the same culture?

I would think the answer to that should be obvious. Relating ideas through language which is familiar is how human beings tend to communicate with one another.

-CryptoLutheran
God could use language from any culture. Yet He chose to use immoral concepts? I don't think My God is capable of sin, but maybe in your view He is.
 
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createdtoworship

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You mean why would the biblical writers, living in the time and place they did, employ vocabulary from their time and place in order to talk to other people living at the same time, and in the same culture?

I would think the answer to that should be obvious. Relating ideas through language which is familiar is how human beings tend to communicate with one another.

-CryptoLutheran
I grow weary of this discussion, please just read the Biblical commands regarding slaves here:

“If your brother, a Hebrew man, or a Hebrew woman, is sold to you and serves you six years, then in the seventh year you shall let him go free from you.
Deu 15:13

“And when you send him away free from you, you shall not let him go away empty-handed;
Deu 15:14

“you shall supply him liberally from your flock, from your threshing floor, and from your winepress. From what the LORD your God has blessed you with, you shall give to him.
Deu 15:15

“You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God redeemed you; therefore I command you this thing today.
Deu 15:16

“And if it happens that he says to you, ‘I will not go away from you,’ because he loves you and your house, since he prospers with you,
Deu 15:17

“then you shall take an awl and thrust it through his ear to the door, and he shall be your servant forever. Also to your female servant you shall do likewise.
Deu 15:18

“It shall not seem hard to you when you send him away free from you; for he has been worth a double hired servant in serving you six years. Then the LORD your God will bless you in all that you do.
 
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ViaCrucis

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God could use language from any culture. Yet He chose to use immoral concepts? I don't think My God is capable of sin, but maybe in your view He is.

How, in your mind, does the Apostles using culturally-relevant language translate to God sinning?

The mental leaps you had to take to get there seems astonishing to me.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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I grow weary of this discussion, please just read the Biblical commands regarding slaves here:

“If your brother, a Hebrew man, or a Hebrew woman, is sold to you and serves you six years, then in the seventh year you shall let him go free from you.
Deu 15:13

“And when you send him away free from you, you shall not let him go away empty-handed;
Deu 15:14

“you shall supply him liberally from your flock, from your threshing floor, and from your winepress. From what the LORD your God has blessed you with, you shall give to him.
Deu 15:15

“You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God redeemed you; therefore I command you this thing today.
Deu 15:16

“And if it happens that he says to you, ‘I will not go away from you,’ because he loves you and your house, since he prospers with you,
Deu 15:17

“then you shall take an awl and thrust it through his ear to the door, and he shall be your servant forever. Also to your female servant you shall do likewise.
Deu 15:18

“It shall not seem hard to you when you send him away free from you; for he has been worth a double hired servant in serving you six years. Then the LORD your God will bless you in all that you do.

And the Torah also describes divorce, however I seem to recall the Lord Jesus saying, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so."

And I can actually see an argument made where divorce is sometimes justifiable, such as when the Lord mentions infidelity; also in an abusive marriage it would be more than justified for the victim to get away from their oppressor.

There is no argument to be made where slavery is ever justifiable.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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createdtoworship

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And the Torah also describes divorce, however I seem to recall the Lord Jesus saying, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so."

And I can actually see an argument made where divorce is sometimes justifiable, such as when the Lord mentions infidelity; also in an abusive marriage it would be more than justified for the victim to get away from their oppressor.

There is no argument to be made where slavery is ever justifiable.

-CryptoLutheran
so you admit that in the Bible it does endorse slavery sort of like it endorses divorce. Well at least we are getting somewhere.
 
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createdtoworship

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Yes, owning another human being is immoral.

-CryptoLutheran

No, the Bible isn't immoral.
But slavery is.

-CryptoLutheran

so these posts are refuted here, as God's word specifically says slavery is ok, at least as far as mosaic law....

“If your brother, a Hebrew man, or a Hebrew woman, is sold to you and serves you six years, then in the seventh year you shall let him go free from you.
Deu 15:13

“And when you send him away free from you, you shall not let him go away empty-handed;
Deu 15:14

“you shall supply him liberally from your flock, from your threshing floor, and from your winepress. From what the LORD your God has blessed you with, you shall give to him.
Deu 15:15

“You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God redeemed you; therefore I command you this thing today.
Deu 15:16

“And if it happens that he says to you, ‘I will not go away from you,’ because he loves you and your house, since he prospers with you,
Deu 15:17

“then you shall take an awl and thrust it through his ear to the door, and he shall be your servant forever. Also to your female servant you shall do likewise.
Deu 15:18

“It shall not seem hard to you when you send him away free from you; for he has been worth a double hired servant in serving you six years. Then the LORD your God will bless you in all that you do.
 
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