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Featured Is slavery immoral

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by createdtoworship, Feb 6, 2020.

  1. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    This is a huge topic with many branches, I don't expect to cover all of it right now, but this came up in another thread and I thought we should talk about it further:

    Slaves for example got freedom at the expense of plantation owners freedom to have free labor. That freedom was fought for and the majority deemed it necessary to support the freedom of the slave over the corporate slaveship. Some view minimum wage as slavery. Slavery for most of history was a moral thing at first anyway. For instance instead of killing someone in war you could make them slaves. In the Bible Israel did this with one of their enemies, but it was disobedience, God wanted them dead not in servitude. They became a stumbling block later to Israel. Some poorer nations you can hire a slave to clean and cook in someones house in exchange for room and board, food, and medical coverage or whatever. So slavery is not always bad and many forms of slavery still exist today in most of the world. It was simply the slavery of African americans and the mistreatment of those slaves that give it a bad name. I don't think slaves should be property and I don't think they should be sold, or mistreated as in the hebrew slaves of egypt. But again when conquering a country if you ask them....do you want to be killed or do you want to build this pyramid for me free of charge? They will choose of course to build the pyramid. So again I will edit this OP in time as I get my resources together on this, but lets start here. Slavery is bad in the sense of owning someone else, or not allowing them to vote, or not paying them in some form, or in the sense of treating them harshly. But would be unusual for people not to think they are not a slave in some form or another, being employed is a form of slavery. Paying taxes is tribute to a government, you are in servitude for the exchange of military protection, police, firefighters, and roads. So you see my point, many people say the Bible is in error because it has slaves mentioned there, but they don't understand slaves still exist today, even in america. What do you think a nanny who happens to be hispanic is? (working for minimum wage or under the table), that is servitude.
     
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  2. Steve97

    Steve97 Active Member

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    You would have to begin my defining the word "slavery".
    People often confuse the word with indentured servitude. Slavery is condemned by God, indentured servitude is not. If you hire a nanny---Hispanic or other---you should pay her well, treat her with respect and kindness---as we should with all people.
     
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  3. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    how do you know indentured servitude is not slavery? That is the problem.
     
  4. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    It is still a bad thing in that form.

    Rulers and governments came to being to the people of God because Israel envied their pagan neighbors who had those.

    Before that, God was their only ruler. They didn't have a king or government because the very notion itself is evil. Most people don't believe it is. Most Christians who don't think so is because they don't study their Bibles close enough.

    They mostly rely on secular information / wisdom which is obvious biased in their system.

    We don't condone this practice. Paying someone less than their work's worth is theft.

    And the standard the world uses isn't actually fair. Everyone grew in such environment so most people thinks it is fair. Most Christians who agrees with that don't study their Bibles enough and is only relying on worldy wisdom and using that bias to study the Bible and that is not going to work.
     
  5. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    well wither or not minimum wage constitutes servitude or slavery is a controversial topic, but you see my point.

    The Bible says to pray every day for Christ's theocracy to come. Not a man appointed government or kingship but a theocracy.

    yes I agree, however I also don't agree in raising minimum wage overtly. I think a basic cost of living raise is manageable but not a rate higher than the typical raise for every one else. Obama I think raised minimum wage five bucks higher, but granted they have not been getting cost of living raises.
    I agree.
     
  6. Redbucket55

    Redbucket55 New Member

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    Slavery is control. Anyone who is held in slavery is under control and maybe sometimes abuse. It depends. No one have the right to control anyone or take away thier freedom. God is the only one who controls this world, not man. Slavery is uncalled for. No one should be kept under control and oppress by others...
     
  7. Redbucket55

    Redbucket55 New Member

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    It depends how the nanny feels and if she is working hard or not. If she feel it's not worth it maybe she should quit her job...
     
  8. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    don't ever get a job then....lol.
     
  9. Redbucket55

    Redbucket55 New Member

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    Why
     
  10. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    well you said:
    and my job takes away my freedom every day, in ways I would rather not say.....I am so upset over it. I wish I could just be rich and never have to work for "the man" again. That would be the life, but I digress.
     
  11. Redbucket55

    Redbucket55 New Member

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    What man? What's going on there?
     
  12. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    "working for the man" is just a phrase people say when they are trying to buck having to work for a corporation or don't like the job they are in. I actually like my job I was just saying that as a joke.
     
  13. Norbert L

    Norbert L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think there is a difference between indentured servitude and slavery. They both look very similar in their historical context but only one of those two is similar to modern day employment. The other one which is slavery is NOT about being employed.
     
  14. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    well I think that is just semantics to some, and feel that the terms are not really mutually exclusive or independent of one another.
     
  15. Norbert L

    Norbert L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Employment today does NOT mean when a person signs a contract with an employer or decides to work for someone else, they can't quit and leave. Slaves can't quit and leave, they are the personal property of their owner.

    Indentured servitude historically is a contract whereby the person has the option to leave.

    This is not semantics, these are known consequences between the two.
     
  16. grasping the after wind

    grasping the after wind That's grasping after the wind

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    Because an indentured servant has voluntarily exchanged their labor for something of value to them, not being physically and mentally coerced into working as the property of another and given things that the "owner" decides the slave must have to survive and be efficient in performing the commanded tasks. .
     
  17. Yekcidmij

    Yekcidmij Polymath

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    Here I assume "slavery" means owning another person as property or applied property laws to people.

    And so, I think you mean stolen labor (not free labor) by means of violence. Theft and violence are costs, not benefits. Slave owners steal lives and labor from the enslaved. So freeing slaves doesn't come as a cost to the slave owner, it comes as at least a partial rectification of damages by the slave owner.

    I can't steal your car from you and then complain when you take it back that it "costs" me a "free" car as if I somehow therefore have a legitimate moral claim on your property.
     
  18. Steve97

    Steve97 Active Member

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    Indentured servitude is not a problem. Definition: a person who signs and is bound by indentures to work for another for a specified time especially in return for payment of travel expenses and maintenance.

    The difference between slavery and indentured servitude was that indentured servitude was for a maximum period of time, typically 7 years, and slavery was for life. Slavery also meant that the slave’s children were also slaves, whereas the indentured servant’s children were free citizens.
     
  19. Yekcidmij

    Yekcidmij Polymath

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    I think indentured servitude can be tricky since the validity seems related to the validity of a contract.

    Contracts typically have several essential elements (see here: http://newhorizonindia.edu/nhc_kast...R-2-Contract-Laws-Indian-Contract-Act1872.pdf)

    Regarding indentured servitude, and in addition to the essential features of a contract, I think a few criteria can be applied to test whether or not an indentured servitude agreement is legitimate:

    1) Valid consent requires a reasonable way of opting out.
    2) Explicit dissent trumps implicit consent.
    3) An action can be taken as indicating agreement to some scheme, only if one can be assumed to believe that, if one did not take that action, the scheme would not be imposed upon one.
    4) Contractual obligation is mutual and conditional.
    (ref: https://rintintin.colorado.edu/~vancecd/phil215/Huemer1.pdf)​

    So do indentured servitude agreements meet the criteria for a legitimate contact? Maybe some times, but maybe not at other times? There is probably a fine line between a legitimate indentured servitude agreement and an illegitimate exploitation or, worse, slavery. It might depend on specific instances. If the "agreement" transfers the right to self-ownership, then it's not legitimate. The right of self-ownership is inalienable. For example, if an indentured servitude agreement included a clause that in the case of a breech of contract the servant becomes a slave in the sense that property laws are applied to him as a person, then the contract is not legitimate (and it's immoral).

    I suspect in many cases indentured servitude "agreements" were morally illegitimate as they would probably have assumed the transfer or self-ownership for a defined period of years. Self-ownership is an inalienable feature of a person.

    https://legislature.vermont.gov/Documents/2020/WorkGroups/Senate Government Operations/Bills/P.R.2 (Proposal 2)/Written Testimony/P.R.2~Peter Teachout~Amending Article 1 of Chapter I Indentured Servitude in Vermont~2-20-2019.pdf
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
  20. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    Not necessarily. Not all slaves are owned. That is why this is a grey area.
     
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