Is sin the reason for one's damnation or not? (2)

[janxharris]

This thread was split automatically after 1000 replies and this thread has been automatically created.
The old thread automatically closed is here: "Is sin the reason for one's damnation or not?"

 

[Hammster]

It is NOT true as a message that can be applied by ALL people in your theology. As your TULIP Calvinism affirms, this command means, 'Only some of you can believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved'. You say it is true and you believe it. It is only true for the predestined elect and is not an unlimited invitation to all people in your theology.

When you phrase it this way you make it look like Calvinism teaches that some want to believe, but God stops them. That's a straw man.

 

[OzSpen]

When you phrase it this way you make it look like Calvinism teaches that some want to believe, but God stops them. That's a straw man.

I'm telling the truth, in my understanding, about TULIP Calvinism. Truth does not equal straw man.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

This thread was split automatically after 1000 replies and this thread has been automatically created.
The old thread automatically closed is here: "Is sin the reason for one's damnation or not?"

At #992, Hammster stated this of you:

Because it always appears that he believes you can argue someone into the Kingdom. There's no work of the Spirit in conversion. It's all just intellectual. It's basically, "if you don't say it right, people won't be saved".

Would you please confirm or deny that you believe these doctrines?

• You believe you can argue someone into the Kingdom of God.
• There is no work of the Holy Spirit in conversion;
• The work of salvation is intellectual;
• If you don't say it right, no person will be saved.

I await your reply.


Oz

 

[Hammster]

I'm telling the truth, in my understanding, about TULIP Calvinism. Truth does not equal straw man.

Oz

Initially, no. But when you've been corrected, and continue to promote the false idea, it's a straw man.

So here it is. Man, in his natural state, will not believe the gospel because he thinks it's false. All the argumentation in the world will not convince him otherwise. You cannot will yourself to believe something that you think is a lie. So that man will not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, because he doesn't think the gospel is true.

 

[OzSpen]

Initially, no. But when you've been corrected, and continue to promote the false idea, it's a straw man.

So here it is. Man, in his natural state, will not believe the gospel because he thinks it's false. All the argumentation in the world will not convince him otherwise. You cannot will yourself to believe something that you think is a lie. So that man will not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, because he doesn't think the gospel is true.

I'm really wasting my time on the computer because now you won't discuss the points I raised and you go to this red herring:

All the argumentation in the world will not convince him otherwise. You cannot will yourself to believe something that you think is a lie.

Not once has that content been in my conversation. That's your diversionary tactic, known as a red herring logical fallacy.

We cannot have a reasonable conversation when you resort to this kind of illogic - that's what a logical fallacy is - the practice of illogical means.

 

[Hammster]

At #992, Hammster stated this of you:

Would you please confirm or deny that you believe these doctrines?

• You believe you can argue someone into the Kingdom of God.
• There is no work of the Holy Spirit in conversion;
• The work of salvation is intellectual;
• If you don't say it right, no person will be saved.

I await your reply.


Oz

How about "what part does the Spirit play in conversion, and why is He necessary?"

Good question for you, too.

 

[Hammster]

I'm really wasting my time on the computer because now you won't discuss the points I raised and you go to this red herring:

Not once has that content been in my conversation. That's your diversionary tactic, known as a red herring logical fallacy.

We cannot have a reasonable conversation when you resort to this kind of illogic - that's what a logical fallacy is - the practice of illogical means.

Bye.

 

[Hammster]

<crickets>

 

[OzSpen]

How about "what part does the Spirit play in conversion, and why is He necessary?"

Good question for you, too.

What I cited of your statement to janx was accurate to what you stated.

I fundamentally agree with the Southern Baptist statement here on the role of the Holy Spirit in salvation.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

<crickets>

Meaning???

 

[Hammster]

What I cited of your statement to janx was accurate to what you stated.

I fundamentally agree with the Southern Baptist statement here on the role of the Holy Spirit in salvation.

Oz

Don't answer, then. I wasn't expecting one anyway.

 

[janxharris]

At #992, Hammster stated this of you:

Would you please confirm or deny that you believe these doctrines?

• You believe you can argue someone into the Kingdom of God.
• There is no work of the Holy Spirit in conversion;
• The work of salvation is intellectual;
• If you don't say it right, no person will be saved.

I await your reply.


Oz

You believe you can argue someone into the Kingdom of God.
False.

There is no work of the Holy Spirit in conversion;
False. Without the action of the Holy Spirit there will be no faith.

The work of salvation is intellectual;
False.

If you don't say it right, no person will be saved.
Depends on how much of it is in error.

 

[OzSpen]

Don't answer, then. I wasn't expecting one anyway.

I did answer your question, but you didn't like the content of what I said. So what did you do? You gave me this kind of dumb down reply.

 

[Hammster]

I did answer your question, but you didn't like the content of what I said. So what did you do? You gave me this kind of dumb down reply.

You've confused responding to a post with answering a question. They aren't the same thing. We cannot have rational discussions when you confuse the two.

 

[Hammster]

You believe you can argue someone into the Kingdom of God.
False.

There is no work of the Holy Spirit in conversion;
False. Without the action of the Holy Spirit there will be no faith.

The work of salvation is intellectual;
False.

If you don't say it right, no person will be saved.
Depends on how much of it is in error.

So you have faith when the Holy Spirit acts? Is that what you are saying?

 

[janxharris]

So you have faith when the Holy Spirit acts? Is that what you are saying?

The individual has to believe. Unlike your theology where some are excluded, the gospel is available to all. Jesus was crystal clear in his analogy for he said that salvation is 'just as' when Moses lifted up the serpent, and anyone bitten could look and live.

 

[Hammster]

The individual has to believe. Unlike your theology where some are excluded, the gospel is available to all. Jesus was crystal clear in his analogy for he said that salvation is 'just as' when Moses lifted up the serpent, and anyone bitten could look and live.

You said "Without the action of the Holy Spirit there will be no faith."

I asked "So you have faith when the Holy Spirit acts? Is that what you are saying?"

Your reply had nothing to do with either.

Could you please answer the question? And my view shouldn't play into your answer at all.

 

[janxharris]

You said "Without the action of the Holy Spirit there will be no faith."

I asked "So you have faith when the Holy Spirit acts? Is that what you are saying?"

Your reply had nothing to do with either.

Could you please answer the question? And my view shouldn't play into your answer at all.

"So you have faith when the Holy Spirit acts? Is that what you are saying?"

Only if the individual believes.

This is outstanding:

janxharris
That is good news, but it is not your message. Your message is:
You will believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved if and only if God elected you.
Paul didn't say that.

Hammster
That's not what we believe.

Please adjust, 'You will believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved if and only if God elected you,' so that it correlates with what you really do believe. Please base your response on the words I have used but adjusting them to correct the error.

Thanks.

 

[Hammster]

"So you have faith when the Holy Spirit acts? Is that what you are saying?"

Only if the individual believes.

So you have belief when the Holy Spirit acts, if you believe? I'm not sure that makes sense. Maybe you could elaborate.