Is sin really the transgression of the law?

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Marco70

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Not the same as "no one -- not even Christians can refrain from living in rebellion against God" --

1 John 2:1 "These things I write to you that you SIN NOT"

Does not say "I write to you that cannot stop sinning"

Bible details matter.

Paul makes that case in Romans 8:4-11

Romans 8
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
Yep, bible details matter:

The letter(of the TC) kills.

Personally, just reeling off pat statements from the head that have no bearing on the reality of ones life isn't something I could do. And it is one thing to quote scripture, quite another to understand the message contained in it.

The letter (of the TC) kills

Bible details matter!!!

I see you have to ignore the above in your responses
 
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Marco70

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Now what I am commanding you today(the given law) is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, ‘Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so that we may obey it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, ‘Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so that we may obey it?’ 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so that you may obey it.

Deut30:11-14

He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant – not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.


7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

2Cor3:6-9

Moses told the people that to obey the law would not be difficult or beyond their reach to obey. Paul told people, the TC were the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation. Is there a contradiction? No!

You can follow the Spirit of the law, but NOT the letter of the law. The letter kills.



You can love God and in your heart want to please and obey him, but though you want to obey him you never will in your humanity perfectly obey him(obey the letter) you will transgress the letter. But you are then following after the Spirit of the law, for you in your heart want to live as God desires you to live However, to faultlessly obey the letter, you will never do, as Paul states: The letter kills(present, not past tense)


Therefore as John states:


If we claim to be without sin(faultlessly obey the letter) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us 1John1:8


Therefore anyone who tells you, it is possible to fully obey the letter of the law/commandments, is preaching what bears no reality to their own life.

As the Pharisees of Jesus day were guilty of. They simply recited the letter and insisted the people must fully obey it. Hence they crushed the people with loads they did not try and bear themselves.
 
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Doveaman

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God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12).
Did God ask the priests in the temple to break the 4th commandment?

“Haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent?” – (Matt 12:5)

The priests in the temple desecrated the Sabbath day by breaking the 4th commandment, and yet they were innocent of sin.

This obviously shows that sin isn't merely the breaking of the ten commandments.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Did God ask the priests in the temple to break the 4th commandment?

“Haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent?” – (Matt 12:5)

The priests in the temple desecrated the Sabbath day by breaking the 4th commandment, and yet they were innocent of sin.

This obviously shows that sin isn't merely the breaking of the ten commandments.

In the eyes of the Pharasees because of their man made traditions, Jesus the creator and God of the Sabbath, was breaking the Sabbath by healing and doing good on the Sabbath.

Jesus rebuked the traditions of the Pharasees, telling them that the Sabbath was made for mankind and that man was not made for the Sabbath and that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath day.

MARK 2:27-28 [27], And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:[28], Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

God's 4th Commandment is one of the ten Commandment which give us the knowledge of what SIN is (Romans 3:20)

................

SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).
 
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There is no need to be unsure as to what sin is. God's WORD is very clear.

WHAT IS SIN?

James 2
8,
If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well:
9, But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10, For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF GOD'S LAW

James is pretty clear if we brake ANY of God's Law (10 commandments) then we are a TRANSGRESSOR of God's LAW

links to...........

1 John 3
4
Whosoever commits SIN transgresses also the law: for SIN is the transgression of the law.

John is in agreement with James and states that if we TRANSGRESS God's LAW then we commit SIN because SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF GOD'S LAW. So it is very clear that SIN is breaking ANY of God's LAW (10 commandments)

Links to...........

Romans 7
7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known SIN, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Well here we have Paul in agreement with James and John also telling us that SIN is breaking God's commandments and uses the 10th commandment as an example of breaking any of God's LAW (10 commandments) = SIN (Exodus 20:17)

Links to............

Romans 3
20
, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

Once again Paul is in agreement with John and James which all agree together that if we break any of God's LAW (10 commandments) we commit SIN because as James, John and Paul all agree together that SIN is breaking ANY of God's 10 commandments.

God's Word is in disagreement with you my friend. SIN is the transgression of God's LAW (10 commandments)




You may want to re-visit that statement and what it means to be "UNDER THE LAW"

God's Word says to be "UNDER THE LAW" is to be guilty of breaking God's LAW. (Romans 7:7; James 2:9-11; 1 John 3:4)

When you understand what it means to be 'UNDER THE LAW" then all the scriptures above make sense.

It is true you are not "UNDER THE LAW" if you have REPENTED, CONFESSED, FORSAKEN your SINS and BELIEVE God's promise of FORGIVENESS (Prov 28:13; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 1 John 1:9) but if you are still practicing KNOWN UNREPETNANT SIN then you are still "UNDER THE LAW" and guilty of SIN (breaking God's LAW).

Romans 3
19,
Now we know that what things soever the law said, it said to them who are UNDER THE LAW: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20,
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21,
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22,
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ to all and on all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23, For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

God's LAW (10 Commandments) is to give us a KNOWLEDGE of what SIN is and lead us to JESUS (Gal 3:24-25) that we might be justified by FAITH. Not being "UNDER THE LAW" means your no longer under the CONDEMNATION of the LAW because you have been FOGIVEN for your SINS.

IF you are still CONTINUING in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN you do not KNOW GOD because you have rejected his GIFT of SALVATION through his Son and you are still in your SINS.

Romans 2:12
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law
: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

ALL who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN WILL be LOST and NOT Enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.


................

SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).
Very flawed argument. Doing the speed limit is subjecting yourself to the law. Violating the speed limit subjects you to punishment when caught and charged by the law.
 
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Yep that's what is plainly says:

1 John 3:4 KJB - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

[a perfect parallelism by John]
1 John 2:7 KJB - Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.​
The Same Ten Commandments from "the beginning" in Genesis:
That's not the beginning John is talking about.
 
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I will wait for you to ask me about the word "also", since there are two things, God [His person] and His Law [written transcript of His perfect character], see Exodus 10:16; Deuteronomy 9:16; Romans 8:7 KJB. Sinning against God, is to 'also' sin against His Law, since it is His character written.

Daniel 9:11 KJB - Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.​
Why wait when a statement about the word also has already been made?
 
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Nitpicking my words does not negate what I said, nor quoted to you.

Nehemiah 9:29 KJB - And testifiedst against them, that thou mightest bring them again unto thy law: yet they dealt proudly, and hearkened not unto thy commandments, but sinned against thy judgments, (which if a man do, he shall live in them;) and withdrew the shoulder, and hardened their neck, and would not hear.​
But we live in Jesus as John 10 says.
 
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True. Good point.

And in Genesis 2 God says not to eat of the fruit of the forbidden tree.
And Satan comes along in Genesis 3 with "did God really say that...?"



1 John 3:4 - "SIN IS" -- what? according to that text?

"sin is the transgression of the law".


The entire verse reads:


I think you have deleted your own point.
Did God write Genesis 20:10 with His own finger? If so why aren't you complying with it?
 
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True. Good point.

And in Genesis 2 God says not to eat of the fruit of the forbidden tree.
And Satan comes along in Genesis 3 with "did God really say that...?"



1 John 3:4 - "SIN IS" -- what? according to that text?

"sin is the transgression of the law".


The entire verse reads:


I think you have deleted your own point.
How does your point stand in the face of Romans 5:13 and Galatians 3:19?
 
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BobRyan

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In 1 John 3:4 we read that "sin is the transgression of the law".

True. Good point.

And in Genesis 2 God says not to eat of the fruit of the forbidden tree.
And Satan comes along in Genesis 3 with "did God really say that...?"

This passage of Scripture is often used by many to define what sin is, but I'm not sure the Apostle John was defining sin with this passage,

1 John 3:4 - "SIN IS" -- what? according to that text?

"sin is the transgression of the law".


The entire verse reads:
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." - (1 John 3:4)

I think you have deleted your own point.

How does your point stand in the face of Romans 5:13 and Galatians 3:19?

The same as it does with Romans 3:31 "do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the LAW"
And Romans 8:4-10 the lost "do not submit to the LAW of God neither indeed CAN they" as compared to the saved who walk by the Spirit.
And 1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
And 1 John 5:2-3 "this IS the Love of God - that we KEEP His Commandments"
And Rev 14:12
And Matthew 19:17-19..

Which is "perfectly".
 
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Doveaman

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In the eyes of the Pharasees because of their man made traditions
I never said the Pharisees were breaking the 4th commandment.

I said the priests were breaking the 4th commandment, and yet were innocent of sin:

“Haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent?” – (Matt 12:5)

The priests working in the temple on the Sabbath day were desecrating the day by breaking the 4th commandment, and yet they were innocent of sin.
Jesus the creator and God of the Sabbath, was breaking the Sabbath by healing and doing good on the Sabbath.
So you agree that Jesus was breaking the Sabbath by violating the 4th commandment.

Cool. :oldthumbsup:
God's 4th Commandment is one of the ten Commandment which give us the knowledge of what SIN is (Romans 3:20)

SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)
Your argument is not consistent. o_O

Are you now accusing Jesus of sin for breaking the Sabbath and violating the 4th commandment? :confused:
 
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True. Good point.

And in Genesis 2 God says not to eat of the fruit of the forbidden tree.
And Satan comes along in Genesis 3 with "did God really say that...?"



1 John 3:4 - "SIN IS" -- what? according to that text?

"sin is the transgression of the law".


The entire verse reads:


I think you have deleted your own point.



The same as it does with Romans 3:31 "do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the LAW"
And Romans 8:4-10 the lost "do not submit to the LAW of God neither indeed CAN they" as compared to the saved who walk by the Spirit.
And 1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
And 1 John 5:2-3 "this IS the Love of God - that we KEEP His Commandments"
And Rev 14:12
And Matthew 19:17-19..

Which is "perfectly".
 
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True. Good point.

And in Genesis 2 God says not to eat of the fruit of the forbidden tree.
And Satan comes along in Genesis 3 with "did God really say that...?"



1 John 3:4 - "SIN IS" -- what? according to that text?

"sin is the transgression of the law".


The entire verse reads:


I think you have deleted your own point.
He quoted the whole verse. Did he really make your day by not including the word also in his statement? He did make the point with emphasis.
The same as it does with Romans 3:31 "do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the LAW"
And Romans 8:4-10 the lost "do not submit to the LAW of God neither indeed CAN they" as compared to the saved who walk by the Spirit.
And 1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
And 1 John 5:2-3 "this IS the Love of God - that we KEEP His Commandments"
And Rev 14:12
And Matthew 19:17-19..

Which is "perfectly".
Yeah I know that you just claimed I'm not a Christian with your idea and inclusion of Revelation 14:12. That is a violation of the rules. You also fortify that with exclusion form heaven with Matthew 19 in dirrect opposition to John 5:24.
 
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BobRyan

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In 1 John 3:4 we read that "sin is the transgression of the law".

True. Good point.

And in Genesis 2 God says not to eat of the fruit of the forbidden tree.
And Satan comes along in Genesis 3 with "did God really say that...?"

This passage of Scripture is often used by many to define what sin is, but I'm not sure the Apostle John was defining sin with this passage,

1 John 3:4 - "SIN IS" -- what? according to that text?

"sin is the transgression of the law".


The entire verse reads:
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." - (1 John 3:4)

I think you have deleted your own point.

How does your point stand in the face of Romans 5:13 and Galatians 3:19?

The same as it does with Romans 3:31 "do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the LAW"
And Romans 8:4-10 the lost "do not submit to the LAW of God neither indeed CAN they" as compared to the saved who walk by the Spirit.
And 1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
And 1 John 5:2-3 "this IS the Love of God - that we KEEP His Commandments"
And Rev 14:12 "the saints keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
And Matthew 19:17-19.. "Keep the Commandments" and then Jesus is asked "which ones?" at which point He quotes from the Law of Moses - in fact quotes from the TEN Commandments in Exodus 20 and the LAW of Moses in Lev 19:18

Which is "perfectly".

He quoted the whole verse

Nice of him to do that.

Yeah I know that you just claimed I'm not a Christian with your idea and inclusion of Revelation 14:12.

I assume that is your attempt at creative writing.
 
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BobRyan

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I never said the Pharisees were breaking the 4th commandment.

I said the priests were breaking the 4th commandment, and yet were innocent of sin:

“Haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent?” – (Matt 12:5)

breaking as in "working at their vocation" as a pastor works at preaching and teaching the Bible and leading out in worship.

But "innocent" since it is not a sin for ANY to preach, teach the Bible and lead out in worship on God's Holy Day - the Bible Sabbath. As we all know.

Obviously.

What they did not do was "build houses and farm" on Sabbath.

Obviously.

As we all know.

(again)

Are you now accusing Jesus of sin for breaking the Sabbath and violating the 4th commandment? :confused:

I think you are getting confused in your own argument even though shown that the "details" are incredibly obvious and easy.
 
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Doveaman

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breaking as in "working at their vocation" as a pastor works at preaching and teaching the Bible and leading out in worship.
The priests in the temple were not preaching and teaching the Bible, they were doing the work of slaughtering animals.

Does your pastor slaughter animals on the Sabbath?

The priests broke the Sabbath by violating the law that commands them not to do any work on the Sabbath:

"Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates." - (Ex 20:8-11)
 
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Ron Gurley

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Jesus did not confirm nor clarify the fourth commandment of remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. It Is the only one Of Moses 10 commandments that he didn’t confirm
 
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Matthew 12:8
[ Lord of the Sabbath ] For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.

Jesus fulfilled this Mosaic Law. His resurrection became historically the new Sunday Sabbath.
 
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