• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

Is sin really the transgression of the law?

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by Doveaman, May 4, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

    +5,567
    United States
    SDA
    Married
    Agreed.

    And in Romans 6 Paul flat out condemns that idea for Christians.

    In fact in 1 Cor 6 he introduces that condemnation of Christians with these words "do not be deceived".
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

    +5,567
    United States
    SDA
    Married
    That is true - the command "do not take God's name in vain" is no longer merely external on stone for the saved saint - it is now written on the heart. Same Law but different relationship to it because of the Gospel - and the "new creation", forgiveness of sins. adoption... which all happen under the "one Gospel" Gal 1:6-9, Gal 3:8 that exists in both OT and NT - and is called the "New Covenant" in both OT and NT.

    True -- I do agree with both.

    Because on some things you have set your "feelings" above the Word when it says that "sin IS transgression of the LAW"

    Notice the Ephesians 6:2 statement that the 5th commandment is "the FIRST commandment" in that still valid unit of TEN "with a promise".

    God does not say "My Law is valid only if you FEEL like it is valid". Not in the NT and not in the OT.

    And that irrefutable Bible detail is not only admitted by Christians who choose to honor God's Bible Sabbath as He stated it -- but it is also admitted by your own pro-Sunday Bible scholars.

    The Baptist Confession of Faith,
    the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
    D.L. Moody,
    R.C Sproul,
    Matthew Henry,
    Thomas Watson
    Eastern Orthodox Catechism
    The Catholic Catechism.
     
  3. Marco70

    Marco70 Well-Known Member

    +260
    Zimbabwe
    Christian
    Single
    I set my feelings above the word? If the law is written in our minds and placed on our hearts, and if sin is the transgression of the law and through the law we become conscious of sin. I must know in my mind what has been placed their, irrefutable. I have never believed in my mind I sinned by failing to observe a set Saturday Sabbath, nor have I had heartfelt conviction I sin by doing so. In my experience, those who decide what is and what is not sin according to what is written in the OT, are the more guilty of setting their hearts/feelings above the moral law of God
     
  4. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    +265
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    Marco70 is it sin [1 John 3:4 KJB] for the Christian to transgress Exodus 20:8-11 in its specific words, yes/no? Why or why not? And if no what happened to it? Where is it?

    God's Ten Commandments - - - - Marco70's 'law' on the heart
    [01] Exodus 20:1-3 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - [01]
    [02] Exodus 20:4-6 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - [02]
    [03] Exodus 20:7 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - [03]

    [04] Exodus 20:8-11 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - [??]
    [05] Exodus 20:12 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - [05]
    [06] Exodus 20:13 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - [06]
    [07] Exodus 20:14 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - [07]
    [08] Exodus 20:15 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - [08]
    [09] Exodus 20:16 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - [09]
    [10] Exodus 20:17 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - [10]

    James 2:10 KJB - For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.


    Marco70, what Law was specifically written in Jesus' heart by the Holy Ghost? He is the example for mankind, and must have the right Law, what Laws were those and where can I find a copy of what they say so I can compare the written word to the 'spirit', since all things must be tested by the word, even the spirits of Zimbabwe [Isaiah 8:20 KJB] for there are false and lying spirits that may try to deceive me [1 Timothy 4:1 KJB]:

    1 John 4:1 KJB - Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

    Revelation 16:13 KJB - And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

    Revelation 16:14 KJB - For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.​

    What laws?

    Psalms 40:7 KJB - Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

    Psalms 40:8 KJB - I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

    Psalms 40:9 KJB - I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest.​

    I need to see a written copy of this Law that you speak of Marco70 in the Bible, where can it be found to be specifically written out?
     
  5. Marco70

    Marco70 Well-Known Member

    +260
    Zimbabwe
    Christian
    Single
    You only quoted three lines of what I wrote, so I will more fully explain the rest:

    As you know, in Christ's day, the people who were the most guilty of breaking the moral law, were the teachers of the law and Pharisees. But they did clean the outside of the cup

    I'm going to write this in emboldened letters:

    The people who most insist you must obey the law/TC, with either the strong inference heaven hinges on it/you can only be in a saved state if you do obey it, or those, who outrightly state it, are the people who most casually break the moral law of God. I have found it to be true on this website, and over decades in various churches/denominations.

    I will just give you one example. A few years ago a friend asked me to go to church with them on a Saturday. I honestly went with an open mind, I truly did. I figured if the only difference between them and me was which day they went to church it was no big deal. Paul speaks of what he termed 'disputable matters' in rom ch14, and that subject is covered by one of them.

    So I went to the church. The first thing I noticed was, it was relentlessly stated: You must obey the TC, and the churchgoers certainly believed Heaven hinged on it. I disagreed with their emphasis on law, but tried to still keep an open mind. After a couple of weeks of going I heard two people laughing, almost hysterically as they constantly took the Lords name in vain, oblivious to the fact they were breaking the TC they insisted you must obey if you want to attain to heaven. I cannot describe to you how truly shocked I was. For in forty five years(of then going to church), I had never once come across such a thing in any church I have been to. And it was not just two people doing it, but others also. How can you, sin without conscience concerning law written in your mind and placed on your heart.

    There was a woman there who dressed immaculately for church on Saturdays. She tithed her money, avoided alcohol and went to all the services. She also insisted you must obey the TC
    (in reality if you want to get to heaven). She looked the most Godly of people in the services, shouting out AMEN when the minister said something she heartedly approved of. I then found out, at the same time she was having multiple affairs. Now don’t get me wrong, I cannot claim no one in any church I have ever been to heartily joined in the service and never had an affair, but I have never seen it on the scale I saw it in this church. One of the women who often took the service before the minister spoke was alos having an affair, I could go on and on. Was it just one church? No! I knew someone who went to a different church on a Saturday, same thing happened.
    When I was at that church, it hit me, just how much on an endorsement of my core Christian views I was seeing before my eyes

    Now don’t get me wrong here, I am not sinless, nor would ever claim to be. But I will write this in emboldened also:

    I could not sin as I saw such blatant sin and turn up at church each week and heartily join in the service. If I committed wilfull sin, it would seer my conscience, and I could never go to church each week and heartily join in the service if I acted as I have described. And I would have no rest, and no peace until I come before my Father in heaven and tell him I am sorry for how I acted.

    And every christian commits sin, those who woodenly quote the letter of scripture claiming Christians never commit sin, doesn’t understand the message contained in the letter. (If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us 1John 1:8)
    But you see, if you have the law written in your mind and placed on your heart, how on earth can you so casually in ignorance break the moral law of God?


    Anyway, I am sure you must dismiss the post, or give a standard response to why I saw what I saw. But, it is so true, I will once again repeat it:

    Those who most insist you must obey the law/TC with the strong inference Heaven hinges on it, are the people who most casually break the moral law, apparently with little or no qualms in doing so, but they do clean the outside of the cup.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2018
  6. Marco70

    Marco70 Well-Known Member

    +260
    Zimbabwe
    Christian
    Single
    So how could people sin as I described and have no consciousness of sin by doing so? Or, could harden their hearts so much concerning such blatant sin?

    But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not(and not) in the old way of the written code.
    Rom7:6

    The Holy Spirit is the convictor of sin. If you follow after the written code/law you cannot follow after the Holy Spirit, it has to be one or the other, as Paul tells us
     
  7. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    +265
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    The Holy Spirit says that which is written, since He was the one who wrote the Ten Commandments. The Holy Spirit is given to those who obey God:

    John 16:13 KJB - Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    Acts 5:32 KJB - And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.​

    Why do you avoid my explicit questions Marco70?
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

    +5,567
    United States
    SDA
    Married
    Agreed.

    And in Romans 6 Paul flat out condemns that idea for Christians.

    In fact in 1 Cor 6 he introduces that condemnation of Christians with these words "do not be deceived".

    In the NT "sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

    And even your own pro-Sunday scholars like those in my signature line affirm the TEN Commandments are included in the moral law of God.

    No "news" there.

    So then we CONTINUE to say "taking God's name in vain" is STILL breaking the LAW and as James 2 - is still sin even for Christians.



    1 Cor 6
    7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

    9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

    So then - the Law of God STILL matters according to Paul

    1 Cor 7:19 what MATTERS is keeping the Commandments of God"


    So what is your response to this ?? "Do not take God's name in vain" is still valid.

    stories and creative writing are good as far as they go...

    But I prefer the actual Bible.
     
  9. Marco70

    Marco70 Well-Known Member

    +260
    Zimbabwe
    Christian
    Single
    Amen to that:

    The letter kills 2Cor3:6

    As you know, paul was referring to the TC in the above. He wrote in the present, not past tense. He didn't tell Christians, that because Christ dwelt in them they could now fully obey the letter. He told them: the letter of the TC kills.
    It's good to correctly explain scripture, otherwise, quoting it is a waste of time isn't it?
    The letter of the TC kills. Why? Because you cannot fully obey that letter. According to the person who wrote half the books of the NT that letter kills anyway, even if some may like to disagree.
    Now you believe don't you, you are not under the condemnation of the law, as long as you fully obey the law/don't break the law. Therefore, you are not under the condemnation of the law, as long as you fully obey the letter that kills.
    Now some of us, agree with Paul, swe know we cannot fully obey the letter that kills, so we don't go around telling people we are not under the condemnation of the law as long as we do not break the law. Others, just quote the partial letter of scripture and demand you fully obey it if you want to remain in a saved state.
    A brother on another website said:
    How can anyone who has the moral law of God in their heart and mind convince themselves they fully obey it?
    A very good question in my view.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
  10. Marco70

    Marco70 Well-Known Member

    +260
    Zimbabwe
    Christian
    Single
    Why would I want to respond to what you write? You bear false witness against people, lie about them, as does lgw. You simply choose to try and justify sin. I can only imagine you believe the ninth commandment is not written in your mind and placed on your heart
    And, you ignore many posts written to you. Oh the hypocrisy
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
  11. Marco70

    Marco70 Well-Known Member

    +260
    Zimbabwe
    Christian
    Single
    LGW believes, the entire law God wants you to follow is rooted in the TC. Therefore, if you fail to obey any law of God you fail to obey the TC. I will assume(they can correct me if they disagree with LGW) the other members of the sda agree with him.

    Therefore, if you dwell on any impure thought, you break the TC, and as they quote James 2:10 to state if you break one of God's laws you break them all, this obviously means you have then broken the entire law of God.
    Same applies if you look at a woman with lust in your eye.
    Same applies if you tell anyone you fast, or drop subtle hints you are fasting.
    Same applies if you fail, at all times to love your enemies, those who may hate, malign, slander or persecute you.
    Same applies if you get angry with your brother without cause.
    Same applies if you bear false witness
    LGW believes the basis of the believers judgement is obedience the TC. I assume other sda brethren agree with him(they can tell me if they disagree)
    Now I entirely agree with LGW in respect of himself. His judgement will undoubtedly be based on obeying the TC/and therefore according to his belief, his judgement will be based on obeying all of the law/commandments God wants you to follow, including all of Christ's literal commandments, as will anyone else who shares his view for:

    The measure you use to judge others will be used to judge you
    Matt7:2
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
  12. Marco70

    Marco70 Well-Known Member

    +260
    Zimbabwe
    Christian
    Single
    However
    I think(correct me if I am wrong) You agree with lgw, the entire law God wants you to follow is based on the TC. All other law is a derivative of the Ten. So if you obey the TC, you will find yourself obeying all the law God desires you to follow.

    Lets look at Jesus words:

    Jesus replied: ‘“Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.” 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: “Love your neighbour as yourself.” 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments
    Matt22:37-40

    Now I'm sure you will not criticise Jesus for failing to say the law hangs on obeying the TC, but rather the law hangs on loving God with all your heart, soul and mind, and love your neighbour as yourself. And there are many dirivites of this. are you now asking me to give an inexhaustible list of dirivites of love God and love your neighbour? Do you wish to do the same where the TC are concerned?

    I will give you one example, of love your neighbour, hows that?
    Paul wrote:
    Carry each others burdens(love them) and so fulfil the law of Christ Gal6:2

    Is it in your heart and mind to love your neighbour as yourself, to carry their burdens in love for them?
    If it is, would you agree with what is in my heart and mind, that to reel off the partial letter of scripture, and to demand of others by doing so, what you do not demand of yourself/you fail to practice in your own life, is to go against the heart of the law that must be in the believers heart and mind. And therefore, you must, if you have truly been born again be conscious you do wrong by doing so? For you would not be carrying your brothers burdens in love, but crushing him with burdens you yourself do not even try to carry. Jesus called that hypocrisy
    Hope you will answer the question. Thanks in advance
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
  13. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

    +4,159
    United States
    Charismatic
    Celibate
    US-Republican
    Just a comment on this portion. Paul, in Romans 7 is talking about mankind, not himself. Paul wasn't there before Moses received the law. Using present tense is another Hebrew style of writing.
     
  14. Marco70

    Marco70 Well-Known Member

    +260
    Zimbabwe
    Christian
    Single
    What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I(I) had not known sin, but by the law: for I(I) had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

    8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me(me) all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

    9 For I(I) was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I(I) died.

    10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I(I) found to be unto death.

    11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me(me).
    Rom7:7-11

    I could recite the above words, word for word where my own experience was concerned, when I went to the church of my youth and lived under the law. I wasn't there either before Moses received the law
     
  15. Marco70

    Marco70 Well-Known Member

    +260
    Zimbabwe
    Christian
    Single
    Saul the Pharisee felt alive, before he made a personal commitment to God, at the age of 13 for a young Jewish lad, then he died/felt condemned. The commandment he believed was ordained to life(if he obeyed it) instead brought death(for he could not keep it)

    I too felt alive once, before I made a personal commitment to God, but once I did sin(consciousness) sprang to life(or revived) and I felt condemned. For I, in reality lived under the law. There is a big difference, between the existence of the law, and what it means to you when you make a personal commitment to God under it
     
  16. Inkfingers

    Inkfingers Somebody's heretic Supporter

    +1,513
    United Kingdom
    Non-Denom
    Single
    Sin is a failure/refusal to recognise the authority of God and kneel in surrender to him.

    Law illustrates clearly how we are so sinning (because we cannot keep the law without the intervention of Christ). This is why to break one law is to break them all, because they all have the same purpose - to show how man is failing/refusing to acknowledge the authority of God...we instead think of ourselves as the authority (which is the whole "antichrist" religion of Babel and the end of Days, being the worship of the supposed independent power of humankind - hence 666 being the number of man).
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
  17. Marco70

    Marco70 Well-Known Member

    +260
    Zimbabwe
    Christian
    Single
    I understand your point. If a believer has impure thoughts, and someone expunges their record then they are not guilty under the law. However, if they then dwell on another impure thought they are convicted as a transgressor according to James2:10, and Rom ch6 bears this out.
    It's not confusing, no.

    Only Lets, not downplay the TC. Lets hold them to the pristine level they are set at.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
  18. Doveaman

    Doveaman Re-Created, Not Evolved.

    +566
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    Yes, I agree.

    Paul was using himself to represent mankind who lived before the law.

    "Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died." - (Rom 7:9-11)

    Once mankind was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and mankind became condemned.

    It is the introduction of the law that gave sin the power to condemn mankind:

    "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law." - (1 Cor 15:56)

    "For before the law was given, sin was in the world, but sin is not taken into account when there is no law." - (Rom 5:13)

    "For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace." - (Rom 6:14)
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
  19. Marco70

    Marco70 Well-Known Member

    +260
    Zimbabwe
    Christian
    Single
    At the age of ten I responded to an altar call, and became a Christian. The first thing that struck me was, I became conscious of my sin in a way I never had previously. And so now, I knew I must not live as I had previously lived, for Christians must live a pure and holy life for God, not have a sinful lifestyle. And so I set out on the Christian path, believing Jesus died for my sins, the slate was washed clean, but if I wanted to remain a Christian/in a saved state I must obey God, and live as he wanted me to/obey the law(though at that young age I didn’t rationalise it that way.)

    But there was a problem, I could not live a sin free life, no matter how much I wanted to. I got angry at times(as kids that age do, and adults also) I didn’t love most others as I knew I should. I told fibs, and so much more. And all the time I did these things I felt so bad, for I was not living as God wanted me to live/I was in reality breaking his good and Holy laws. The happiness I had, before I got saved was starting to ebb away, for there was no condemnation then, the law had not been placed within me.

    Then I reached puberty and the problems magnified. Now I had impure thoughts/lust. In my heart I knew it was sin, I didn’t have to read the letter of any commandment to know that, for the law was within me. I honestly did not want the impure thoughts, I wanted to live a pure and holy life for God. And I feared, because of them I would be condemned to hell. After all, I was breaking the TC in reality, and I firmly believed attaining heaven/remaining saved hinged on obeying them. The more I feared hell through breaking God’s laws, the worse the sin got. The more I feared the impure thoughts because of this the worse they got. In the end, I was consumed by all manner of concupiscence(rom7:7) I became wracked with guilt, shame and felt dirty because I was not living according to how God wanted me to live/his laws. So how could I be a Christian as that was the case? When I was fifteen I did the only thing I could do, I walked away from the church. I refused to be a hypocrite. Though I could act holy on the outside, the inside was a very different matter. And I knew, because the law was in my heart, if I wanted to obey God, that included on the inside, not just the outside.



    Looking back at that time in my life now, how could I explain it?



    Was the law sin? For through my attempts to obey God/his laws I became full of all manner of sin on the inside. Of course not, I could not have known what sin was apart from the law. I wouldn’t have known lust if the law had not said: Thou shalt not covet. (rBut sin used what was good and holy to arouse all manner of concupiscence in me Rom 7:7(as it does many today who live under the law). I had felt alive once before the law came to me,(verse9) I had been a normal, healthy kid, for there was no condemnation then, but once it did come, sin revived(or sin consciousness sprang to life) and I died/felt condemned. The commandments I believed were ordained to life (if I obeyed them), instead brought death/condemnation (for I could not keep them verse10) Sin, through what was holy, just and good had become exceeding sinfull in me.(rom 7:13)
     
  20. Marco70

    Marco70 Well-Known Member

    +260
    Zimbabwe
    Christian
    Single
    Now what I am commanding you today(the given law) is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, ‘Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so that we may obey it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, ‘Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so that we may obey it?’ 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so that you may obey it.

    Deut30:11-14

    He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant – not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.


    7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

    2Cor3:6-9

    Moses told the people that to obey the law would not be difficult or beyond their reach to obey. Paul told people, the TC were the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation. Is there a contradiction? No!

    You can follow the Spirit of the law, but NOT the letter of the law. The letter kills.



    You can love God and in your heart want to please and obey him, but though you want to obey him you never will in your humanity perfectly obey him(obey the letter) you will transgress the letter. But you are then following after the Spirit of the law, for you in your heart want to live as God desires you to live However, to faultlessly obey the letter, you will never do, as Paul states: The letter kills(present, not past tense)


    Therefore as John states:


    If we claim to be without sin(faultlessly obey the letter) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us 1John1:8


    Therefore anyone who tells you, it is possible to fully obey the letter of the law/commandments, is preaching what bears no reality to their own life.

    As the Pharisees of Jesus day were guilty of. They simply recited the letter and insisted the people must fully obey it. Hence they crushed the people with loads they did not try and bear themselves.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...