Is sin really the transgression of the law?

[BobRyan]

So why did Jesus die on the cross? Under the OC no one was condemned by the law unless they broke it.

True. and "All have sinned" Rom 3:23 so all are under that condemnation Romans 3:19-21. This we already saw.

That OC system is still at work condemning all mankind as of the writing of Romans 3.

If the same system exists today,

And it does - all the lost are under it.

why could scripture relentlessly state you are not under law?

Because as Paul says the term means "under the condemnation of the law" see Romans 3:19-21.

You are under the same system as they were under for the OC?

That would only be true if you were never forgiven... never born-again, never filled with the Holy Spirit, never a "new creation" as Romans 6 points out.

And that is the case with many of the lost today - though some of them used to be saved but then "fell from grace" and were "severed from Christ" Gal 5:4

 

[Marco70]

Though I use the example of the crime of "theft" --

Paul says it this way


Romans 6
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

"for SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

Romans 6
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

"Under Law" meaning "under condemnation of the Law" as already defined in Romans 3:19-21

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

If you tell someone they are not under the condemnation of the law, as long as they faultlessly observe the law, they will live under the law. That must be irrefutable

 

[Marco70]

True. and "All have sinned" Rom 3:23 so all are under that condemnation Romans 3:19-21. This we already saw.

That OC system is still at work condemning all mankind as of the writing of Romans 3.



And it does - all the lost are under it.



Because as Paul says the term means "under the condemnation of the law" see Romans 3:19-21.



That would only be true if you were never forgiven... never born-again, never filled with the Holy Spirit, never a "new creation" as Romans 6 points out.

And that is the case with many of the lost today - though some of them used to be saved but then "fell from grace" and were "severed from Christ" Gal 5:4

But you could be forgiven under the OC if you committed sin couldn't you. The idea you are not under the law, as long as you faultlessly obey the law, is, in my view, nonsensical

 

[BobRyan]

If you tell someone they are not under the condemnation of the law, as long as they faultlessly observe the law, they will live under the law.

True (Irrefutable as you say) and that is how all are lost -- all under the old covenant.

The old covenant does not offer forgiveness not sure why you keep skipping this detail along with Romans 6.

The New Covenant offers
1. New Heart with LAW written on the heart (instead of "law deleted")
2. Adoption into the family of god
3. Forgiveness of sins

Read the actual New Covenant in Hebrews 8

 

[Marco70]

True (Irrefutable as you say) and that is how all are lost -- all under the old covenant.

The old covenant does not offer forgiveness not sure why you keep skipping this detail along with Romans 6.

The New Covenant offers
1. New Heart with LAW written on the heart (instead of "law deleted")
2. Adoption into the family of god
3. Forgiveness of sins

Read the actual New Covenant in Hebrews 8

The OC did offer forgiveness through sacrifices. No one was under the condemnation of the law under the OC as long as they did not transgress it. To say the same applies today would make statements such as 'you are not under the condemnation of the law worthless, for nothing has changed

 

[BobRyan]

But you could be forgiven under the OC if you committed sin couldn't you.

No.

The Old Covenant was first given Adam(before the New Covenant, before the Gospel) - but then he sinned. The "conditions" of that covenant did not say "then Christ will die for you and you will go to heaven anyway" rather it said "you will die". period.

Lev 18:5 and Romans 10:5 say the same thing. The old covenant is not "sin and be forgiven"

 

[BobRyan]

The OC did offer forgiveness through sacrifices.

blood sacrifice to pay for sin - is not "obey and live" it is "sin and be forgiven" you are confusing the Old Covenant itself "obey and live" with the form the Gospel had in the OT pointing to the death of Christ future - via the blood of animals as mere symbols of Christ's death.

 

[Marco70]

No.

The Old Covenant was first given Adam(before the New Covenant, before the Gospel) - but then he sinned. The "conditions" of that covenant did not say "then Christ will die for you and you will go to heaven anyway" rather it said "you will die". period.

Lev 18:5 and Romans 10:5 say the same thing. The old covenant is not "sin and be forgiven"

But under both covenants you believe you die/are condemned if you break the law. No difference then between them is there

 

[Marco70]

blood sacrifice to pay for sin - is not "obey and live" it is "sin and be forgiven" you are confusing the Old Covenant itself "obey and live" with the form the Gospel had in the OT pointing to the death of Christ future - via the blood of animals as mere symbols of Christ's death.

But you believe if you do not fully observe the law you are condemned by it, as they were under the OC. No living either way s ithere

 

[BobRyan]

Gospel "sin not but if you sin there is forgiveness" 1 John 2:1
Old covenant... "obey and live" not "sin and be forgiven".


Old Covenant - "Obey and Live"

Genesis 2: 16 The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

Genesis 3:
2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”

Lev 18:5 You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, which if a man does, he shall live by them: I am the Lord.

Rom 10:5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.”

Gal 3: 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

Gal 3:12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

Jesus said
Matthew 19
if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said,
“‘You shall not murder,’ Exodus 20
‘You shall not commit adultery,’ Exodus 20
‘You shall not steal,’ Exodus 20
‘You shall not bear false witness,’ Exodus 20
19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ Exodus 20
and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ” Lev 19:18

All of it from "The Law of Moses"

 

[BobRyan]

But you believe if you do not fully observe the law you are condemned by it, as they were under the OC. No living either way s ithere

I believe Romans 6 - we are not supposed to sin after being saved. God is not saving us "to take God's name in vain -- some more"

 

[Marco70]

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law throughy the body of Christ that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Rom 7:4-6

In what way can believers die to the law, if transgressing the law still condemns them? How can Christians be released from the law, if transgressing it places them in a condemned state?

 

[Marco70]

I believe Romans 6 - we are not supposed to sin after being saved. God is not saving us "to take God's name in vain -- some more"

For sure God does not want believers to commit sin. According to scripture sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace(Rom 6:14)
I am under the law of my country, same as you are. Because I am under the law, If I transgress the law I am condemned by my transgression and must pay the price for doing so. Therefore, if the believer is under that same system, they also must live under the law, scripture states the believer does not

 

[Marco70]

Gal 3: 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

"

Absolutely. Fail to do everything written in the law and you are condemned. Hence, you are cursed under that system, for no one could faultlessly obey the law.
If you believe today, you must faultlessly observe the law or be in a condemned state due to your failure to do so, you are cursed, according to what paul wrote

 

[Marco70]

Jesus said
Matthew 19
if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said,
“‘You shall not murder,’ Exodus 20
‘You shall not commit adultery,’ Exodus 20
‘You shall not steal,’ Exodus 20
‘You shall not bear false witness,’ Exodus 20
19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ Exodus 20
and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ” Lev 19:18

All of it from "The Law of Moses"

The above was spoken under the OC. However. The young man claimed he had obeyed the law you quoted since his childhood. What was Jesus response?
'Just one thing you lack.'
He did not tell the young man: Well done, you will inherit eternal life did he?
So why, if the young man claimed to keep the TC did Jesus tell him he lacked anything, in your view?

 

[BobRyan]

1. The term Old Covenant was never used by Christ in the Gospels and is never found in the O.T.
2. The term is used with two contexts in the NT.
2.A - to speak of the Gospel liturgy used in worship under the system of animal sacrifices.
2.B - to speak of the "obey and live" covenant first made with Adam -- under which all mankind is lost even to this very day --and no forgiveness of sins is offered

You are conflating the two in your responses which leads you to believe we are supposed to ignore the teaching of Christ - as Christians.

Lots of detail on this - already posted here

And on this thread - see the OP -
Apr 6, 2018 #1

 

[Marco70]

1. The term Old Covenant was never used by Christ in the Gospels and is never found in the O.T.
2. The term is used with two contexts in the NT.
2.A - to speak of the Gospel liturgy used in worship under the system of animal sacrifices.
2.B - to speak of the "obey and live" covenant first made with Adam -- under which all mankind is lost even to this very day --and no forgiveness of sins is offered

You are conflating the two in your responses which leads you to believe we are supposed to ignore the teaching of Christ - as Christians.

If there is a NEW covenant, it replaces the OLD covenant, obviously. Do I have to quote the scriptures?
Old Testament/old covenant. New testament/new covenant

 

[BobRyan]

Absolutely. Fail to do everything written in the law and you are condemned.

We call that the "Old Covenant" and it offers no forgiveness of sins.

But under the NEW covenant there IS forgiveness of sin for those who do things like "take God's name in vain" but there is ZERO command to "Go on taking God's name in vain" -- hence all the Romans 6 texts I quoted and that we do not find in your posts

 

[BobRyan]

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law throughy the body of Christ that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Rom 7:4-6

In what way can believers die to the law, if transgressing the law still condemns them? How can Christians be released from the law, if transgressing it places them in a condemned state?

Alread addressed here -

Though I use the example of the crime of "theft" --

Paul says it this way


Romans 6
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

"for SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

Romans 6
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

"Under Law" meaning "under condemnation of the Law" as already defined in Romans 3:19-21

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

And here

True (Irrefutable as you say) and that is how all are lost -- all under the old covenant.

The old covenant does not offer forgiveness not sure why you keep skipping this detail along with Romans 6.

The New Covenant offers
1. New Heart with LAW written on the heart (instead of "law deleted")
2. Adoption into the family of god
3. Forgiveness of sins

Read the actual New Covenant in Hebrews 8

And here

================

Absolutely. Fail to do everything written in the law and you are condemned.

We call that the "Old Covenant" and it offers no forgiveness of sins.

But under the NEW covenant there IS forgiveness of sin for those who do things like "take God's name in vain" but there is ZERO command to "Go on taking God's name in vain" -- hence all the Romans 6 texts I quoted and that we do not find in your posts

 

[Marco70]

1. The term Old Covenant was never used by Christ in the Gospels and is never found in the O.T.

The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband
declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
Jeremiah 31:31-33

New covenant replaces old covenant