Is Showing Cleavage Immodest? What Does the Bible Say?

[YouthPastor]

Why?

1) contratry to what most in society whould have you believe - and that is that guys go crazy and would prefer big one's - I do not think that is true (I don;t think it really matters the size when it comes to who is going to be you spouse or your girlfriend - I am jsut talking in general - most guys will not pick a spouse based on the "size")

2) I think for most guys - if it came to seeing covered big ones or seeing "some" cleavage - the cleavage wins. if they are going to look at something - they would rather see something

as to why I would choose the smaller is because the bigger ones are not "attractive" to me.

Pamela anderson and many would probably disagree with me - is not all that hot.

please do not misunderstand my post - I do not go around looking at women's breasts. a question was asked which would I be more tempted to look at - I answered

 

[AutumnDreamer]

1) contratry to what most in society whould have you believe - and that is that guys go crazy and would prefer big one's - I do not think that is true (I don;t think it really matters the size when it comes to who is going to be you spouse or your girlfriend - I am jsut talking in general - most guys will not pick a spouse based on the "size")

2) I think for most guys - if it came to seeing covered big ones or seeing "some" cleavage - the cleavage wins. if they are going to look at something - they would rather see something

as to why I would choose the smaller is because the bigger ones are not "attractive" to me.

Pamela anderson and many would probably disagree with me - is not all that hot.

please do not misunderstand my post - I do not go around looking at women's breasts. a question was asked which would I be more tempted to look at - I answered

I understand, I am in no way trying to "trap" anyone into an answer LOL I have found that most men(I have asked a few) if they were going to lust after a woman it would be the one with the bigger boobs regardless of whether they are covered or not. Now I know men do not go out looking to lust after women LOL and that it can just happen from looking, but the point is that seeing is not a sin, it is the continuing to look and ogle, which comes to down to the man having self control. Are you trying to make your mind pure regardless of what you see, or are you just going to look b/c it is there? I don't buy this "women should help us not to stumble" b/c quite frankly, when you see a woman walking thorugh the mall, you have no idea if it is a sister in Christ or not so how can you expect them to be thinking about whether or not they are making you stumble? Men have to train themselves to have self control regardless of whether or not the woman is a christian. Chances are if she is really showing something to look at it, her walk with Christ is not a priority.

 

[YouthPastor]

I don't buy this "women should help us not to stumble" b/c quite frankly, when you see a woman walking thorugh the mall, you have no idea if it is a sister in Christ or not so how can you expect them to be thinking about whether or not they are making you stumble? Men have to train themselves to have self control regardless of whether or not the woman is a christian. Chances are if she is really showing something to look at it, her walk with Christ is not a priority.

You're right walking through the mall - we don't know whether they are christian or not. However, when you come to youth meeting or church, or you go to you a youth conference - you would hope or expect to see those people (who you would presume to be christian) would be dressed in a way as not to show off what God has given them in regards to body parts.

you are right - a guy does need to control himself.

BUT usually those who give that argument - want a free ride to dress sleezy (hope that does not get sensored)& i don;t think you are using it that way. It is a two way street. Guys need to not look. butthat does not give women a free ride to dress however she wants. Girls also need to be modest -

One big difference is MEN are VISUAL. lookat at all the magazines geared toward men... forget the "nude" magaiznes - whatabout FHM, Maxim, SI swimsuite edition, muscle car mags with scantly clad women etc... it is because men are visual.

 

[AutumnDreamer]

You're right walking through the mall - we don't know whether they are christian or not. However, when you come to youth meeting or church, or you go to you a youth conference - you would hope or expect to see those people (who you would presume to be christian) would be dressed in a way as not to show off what God has given them in regards to body parts.

You would hope, unfortunetly there are many young girls in church b/c their parents make them rather then them wanting to be there.

you are right - a guy does need to control himself.

BUT usually those who give that argument - want a free ride to dress sleezy (hope that does not get sensored)& i don;t think you are using it that way. It is a two way street. Guys need to not look. butthat does not give women a free ride to dress however she wants. Girls also need to be modest -

I totally agree! Unforuntunetly the bible is not real clear on what modest is, and everyone's definition is different. So we must rely on the Holy Spirit to guide, and we must also realize that not everyone is listening, so we need to take responsibility for ourselves since we do not have the power to change someone else.

One big difference is MEN are VISUAL. lookat at all the magazines geared toward men... forget the "nude" magaiznes - whatabout FHM, Maxim, SI swimsuite edition, muscle car mags with scantly clad women etc... it is because men are visual.

Again I agree, most women are not visual. God created men this way IMO so that they would learn to rely on Him when it comes to lust. Women are more emtional and IMO God made us this way so we would learn to rely on Him when we get hurt.

 

[LsforLove]

I believe so, but I was wondering if someone can use reasoning other than "you cause others to stumble"

Well I guess it really goes to intent if you are wearing said low cut shirt to show off I think that would be defined as sin however wearing a shirt that shows a little cleavage is not a bad thing. Besides….well I won’t go into the scientific explanation, lets just say cleavage is good for more than just having dirty ol’ man stare.

 

[Johnnz]

Am I living on another planet? I look at other people, both genders. When I look I see what I see. When I look at a woman I see what is there - big, small, pretty, ordinary, slender, mature, tall, short. I notice what she is wearing - business dress, casual, long/short skirt etc. If she is in a bikini, or showing clevage, or has ultra short skirt I see that too. What I have never done is want any other woman sexually apart from my wife. I don't get into a sexual frenzy, or imagine the pleasures of her body when it is pretty much on display. If she is really attractive I can appreciate that, but not in any sexual way.

If we have sound sexual attitudes and values why do we get so uptight about things like this? When I see a woman parading herself my response should always be to be concerned about her misplaced values, and to quietly offer a prayer for her. I was as sexual as the next guy as a teenager i.e. totally normal. It was a bit uncomfortable at times coping with that, but after having thought through a few issues I really never felt that I was stuggling to maintain Christian sexual standards.

John
NZ

 

[YouthPastor]

I totally agree! Unforuntunetly the bible is not real clear on what modest is, and everyone's definition is different. So we must rely on the Holy Spirit to guide, and we must also realize that not everyone is listening, so we need to take responsibility for ourselves since we do not have the power to change someone else.

Yes, I agree to a point.

However, let me make this point.

I personally do not like to have to "fight off looking" because I am talking to a "christian" woman and her cleavage is showing.

there may be "extreme" situations (as you said youare well endowed, and you do not want to wear shirts up to your neck - although I have seen many women well endowed who do keep things covered - but I will not harp as that is not my point here).

maybe we can compromise on a solution or definition od modest as far as tops go -

if you are standing in front of a guy talking to him - what is he going to see? if he is going to see cleavage - maybe what you are wearing - is alittle too revealing.

 

[asianchexmix]

I hate jumping back in but I think YouthPastor said what I wanted to say earlier on. In no way was I blaming females for our faults or whatnot because its not females fault (if it sounded it like that). Yes we need to control our eyes and our thoughts but on the same token ladies need to learn to not allow the eyes and thoughts exist. When it comes down to it, you do need to ask the Holy Spirit for guidance as Autumn said. Me personally, I'd rather see none because I don't want to have more issues to worry about than what I have already but thats on the call of the girls who wear their clothes. Good discussion topic. Props for that for all who participated.

 

[LsforLove]

I hate jumping back in but I think YouthPastor said what I wanted to say earlier on. In no way was I blaming females for our faults or whatnot because its not females fault (if it sounded it like that). Yes we need to control our eyes and our thoughts but on the same token ladies need to learn to not allow the eyes and thoughts exist. When it comes down to it, you do need to ask the Holy Spirit for guidance as Autumn said. Me personally, I'd rather see none because I don't want to have more issues to worry about than what I have already but thats on the call of the girls who wear their clothes. Good discussion topic. Props for that for all who participated.

I blames the fashion and textile industries which in order to create more profit they have curbed the amount of material in the clothing thus giving many women no choice but to show more.

 

[AutumnDreamer]

if you are standing in front of a guy talking to him - what is he going to see? if he is going to see cleavage - maybe what you are wearing - is alittle too revealing.

This is why I rely on my husband, when I am wearing a shirt, and I look down, I see cleavage not matter what I wear LOL I do make a point to not be revealing, but like said before cleavage is defined by a line, for some people that line goes higher then others.

 

[Merlin]

It's not a sin.

 

[wonderwaleye]

Why?

Dear AutumnDreamer


I know it's hard for a women to understand men.


What YouthPastor was trying to tell you when he said this:


" personally - I would try not to loook at either - but that would be the pet answer - so, since you want an answer to one or the other, If I were to "look" at one of the two - it would be the first - the one that is small chested and is showing a small amount of cleavage. "


is that he's the " SUNNY SIDE UP KIND OF GUY "

It's good not everyone's the same or the doctors would not be able to keep up with the implant bussiness.


NO MATTER THE TYPE WE NEED TO REMEMBER:




XEven though you can't see Him, GOD is there!O
( click on the X and move to the O ) ( then feel who is around you ) steven

 

[Merlin]

Question:
Is it better to show cleavage, or
no cleavage but a tight T-shirt showing all as a wet t-shirt might?
Is it ok to hide cleavage, but then show skin in other places like belly button or caboose?
A bit of cleavage or a not supportive bra such that I 'sway' and 'jiggle' with each step?

Or is my DD size a problem regardless of overall attire?

 

[AutumnDreamer]

Question:
Is it better to show cleavage, or
no cleavage but a tight T-shirt showing all as a wet t-shirt might?
Is it ok to hide cleavage, but then show skin in other places like belly button or caboose?
A bit of cleavage or a not supportive bra such that I 'sway' and 'giggle' with each step?

Or is my DD size a problem regardless of overall attire?

AMEN!

 

[CharAznable]

Question:
Is it better to show cleavage, or
no cleavage but a tight T-shirt showing all as a wet t-shirt might?

Are you trying to say that there are no shirts/dresses that you could wear that would be loose and cover up cleavage? Why does it have to be a choice between on or the other? I look at how people dress in church and they wear shirts that not only cover cleavage, but isn't tight and doesn't even go up to the collar! Now I'm not saying you have to dress up in business casual type dress everday, but is it really that hard to find everyday clothing that is like this? I see it everyday.

Is it ok to hide cleavage, but then show skin in other places like belly button or caboose?

Again, why do you have to choose one between the other? Can you find clothing that hides cleavage and doesn't show skin in other places?

A bit of cleavage or a not supportive bra such that I 'sway' and 'giggle' with each step?

Again, why one or the other? Is both really that impossible?

Or is my DD size a problem regardless of overall attire?

It is a "problem". Having said that, as we strive to do our best for God, try to be as modest as possible (both men and women), could we change our clothing to resemble modesty more and more? Or is it that we abstain from clothing that can cover the "trouble areas" because then we won't look "young" "beautiful" "attractive" or "sexy"? I mean, unless you are in AutumnDreamer's position, why would any woman not cover up her cleavage? Is it impossible to find loose clothing that covers up cleavage? Oh wait, then that might make us look "old" right? But we don't want that... that's asking a little too much for God...

(This is not an attack on any one person).

 

[TheDag]

I totally agree! Unforuntunetly the bible is not real clear on what modest is, and everyone's definition is different. So we must rely on the Holy Spirit to guide, and we must also realize that not everyone is listening, so we need to take responsibility for ourselves since we do not have the power to change someone else.

I've been giving this whole modesty thing some thought. The NT seems to be more a set of priciples rather than actual rules or solid easy to understand guidelines like the OT. So from the NT I would say that modest is not wearing stuff with the purpose of drawing attention to yourself. So that once again would come down to motive. Are you wearing skimpy clothing to attract attention so people will look at you? (some would say no but deep down they are) Or is it more like you got the best choice of clothing possible considering in some places there is very little choice. That probably isn't an all encompassing definition but I reckon its a good start. Would you agree with that? and would you add something?

 

[AutumnDreamer]

I've been giving this whole modesty thing some thought. The NT seems to be more a set of priciples rather than actual rules or solid easy to understand guidelines like the OT. So from the NT I would say that modest is not wearing stuff with the purpose of drawing attention to yourself. So that once again would come down to motive. Are you wearing skimpy clothing to attract attention so people will look at you? (some would say no but deep down they are) Or is it more like you got the best choice of clothing possible considering in some places there is very little choice. That probably isn't an all encompassing definition but I reckon its a good start. Would you agree with that? and would you add something?

I do agree. I think if you polled Christian women for example, you would get to sets of statistics, for example if you polled Married Christian women and asked them what their motivation is for dressing, most of them will say either comfort, cost, or to impress their husband. Where as if you polled single Christian women and asked what their motivation is most would probably say to attract a guy, which in and of itself is probably not a sin, until they start putting on the skimpy clothes to attract a guy.

 

[CharAznable]

I've been giving this whole modesty thing some thought. The NT seems to be more a set of priciples rather than actual rules or solid easy to understand guidelines like the OT. So from the NT I would say that modest is not wearing stuff with the purpose of drawing attention to yourself. So that once again would come down to motive. Are you wearing skimpy clothing to attract attention so people will look at you? (some would say no but deep down they are) Or is it more like you got the best choice of clothing possible considering in some places there is very little choice. That probably isn't an all encompassing definition but I reckon its a good start. Would you agree with that? and would you add something?

Motive is a good start, but it ulimately falls short. Just to use an extremem example to show what I mean, let's say I have a gun. I shoot you in the head. My motive for shooting you was not to kill you, but just to see how your head would go flying and the physics associated with it.

Now, my motives are pure, but at the same time murderers will not inherit the kingdom of God. Do my pure motives excuse me?

Does the person who's intentions are pure get a free pass to heaven, even though they knew in their heart there was something more modest that they could wear? Is "settling" the Christian way, or is loving God will all of our heart, soul, strength, mind the Christian way?

Are motives the end all be all? I would think not.

For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord.
- 1 Corinthians 4:4 (NAS)

 

[AutumnDreamer]

Motive is a good start, but it ulimately falls short. Just to use an extremem example to show what I mean, let's say I have a gun. I shoot you in the head. My motive for shooting you was not to kill you, but just to see how your head would go flying and the physics associated with it.

Now, my motives are pure, but at the same time murderers will not inherit the kingdom of God. Do my pure motives excuse me?

Does the person who's intentions are pure get a free pass to heaven, even though they knew in their heart there was something more modest that they could wear? Is "settling" the Christian way, or is loving God will all of our heart, soul, strength, mind the Christian way?

Are motives the end all be all? I would think not.

This is not a fair comparison, b/c murder with a doubt it a sin, where as showing cleavage is not. There is always a more modest choice, you always have the opportunity to dress as the muslims do, does that mean if we do not we are sinning? No. Murder is murder there is no grey area. Where as modesty has a HUGE grey area.

 

[CharAznable]

This is not a fair comparison, b/c murder with a doubt it a sin, where as showing cleavage is not. There is always a more modest choice, you always have the opportunity to dress as the muslims do, does that mean if we do not we are sinning? No. Murder is murder there is no grey area. Where as modesty has a HUGE grey area.

If you notice, I was just showing that the principle of motive ultimately falls short. But anyways...

We all know the "trouble areas" of the male and female body, those are what we have to try to cover our best. You knew it from the time you went through puberty and you started developing. I don't understand why for 5950 years we all understood what modest was, what we had to cover up. Now all of a sudden around the 50s our standards kept declining and declining.

You don't have to dress as the Muslims do, but don't you think you should do your best to cover up the "trouble areas"? Looking at the model of clothing we can find in the Bible, shouldn't we at least try to match that, rather than settling for cleavage? I wonder what all the well endowed women of the Bible did. "Well look at how big my chest is, I just have to show cleavage!" I don't think so...